NeverarGreat

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.

But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.

Come on. That’s special edition talk!

He’s got you there. Get outta here!

Hey, you don’t need to like it, but those are the official movies for most people.

DominicCobb said:

Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.

But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.

That there’s a new big bad Force wielder, however, should have been established with the crawl.

…but I like it anyway, since it really ties the room Saga together.

Who is Snoke?

He may just be some evil dude who does bad stuff, but he’s also sort of a big deal to Luke, Leia, and Han, since he personally wrecks their son and all of their lives and the entire Republic, yet we don’t know the first thing about him. So I think it’s a question worth answering, even if it will almost certainly not pertain to the new trilogy. So here is the backstory I would give him, taking into account the prequels as well:

The Jedi and the Sith are both on quests for immortality. Qui-gon is the first Jedi to discover a way to return from the netherworld of the Force, but the Sith have long known of another way. It is the primary secret of the Sith, since it is never spoken even between master and apprentice.

Consider: The ability to kill in cold blood, completely devoted to the Dark Side, is the single most important quality of the Sith. Combined with the otherwise absurd Rule of Two, it is reasonable to assume that the apprentice killing the master is a time-honored tradition, and in fact is the way that the apprentice knows that they have become the master. A master would not dare train an apprentice if they knew that it would be their end, since the Sith think only of themselves. And so there must be some other reason, and this is the secret: The Sith train apprentices to become vessels for their evil spirits upon death. The rush of the dark side when a sith apprentice kills a master is part of that master’s spirit being imbued with the apprentice, filling them with the power of the Dark Side.

It is established that killing increases one’s power, but only if an apprentice is totally dedicated to the Dark Side in the first place. Han’s death does not increase Kylo’s power, which is why Rey was able to defeat him soon after. Similarly, Anakin’s murder of dozens of students and Separatists leaves him torn in two, and soon after he is broken and burning beside a river of lava.

In Palpatine’s story about Darth Plagueis, he explains that his master was the first Sith powerful and wise enough to save ordinary people from death. It was not enough to save Plagueis, as he was killed in the time honored tradition of the Sith and his spirit was infused with his apprentice, but the wisdom would have to be regained. Palpatine doesn’t want Anakin to kill him yet because it will take time for him to pass on his wisdom to Anakin, but his plan is to eventually do so, if Anakin wishes it. When he reveals himself as a Sith to Anakin, he revels in Anakin’s anger, seeing an apprentice who would not be conflicted about killing him and continuing the Sith line. When he undergoes his transformation, he even speaks of unlimited power. Where did he get such power? From the many Sith that came before him, and that amplified his strength beyond what should be possible in a single lifetime.

But death does come for all, and in Return of the Jedi we see Palpatine’s inevitable downfall. There is an explosion of blue light traveling up and out of the shaft, but since Anakin acted out of love for his son he is not imbued with this evil spirit. It flees out into the universe, seeking another to infect.

Snoke is this other. It doesn’t matter what sort of creature he is or where he came from, for the spirit of the Sith is strong in him. His speech is even similar to Palpatine’s. Based on what we see of his abilities in The Last Jedi, he is stronger than the old Emperor, and this is as expected if Palpatine resided in his soul.

But when Kylo murders him, his spirit does not flee out into the universe. This implies that the Sith now reside in Kylo Ren, the last Skywalker, who has attempted to kill the past but who is now completely controlled by it. His dominant personality may remain the same, but he’s now infected by this evil power.

Snoke is Plagueis.
Snoke is Palpatine.
Snoke is the Sith.
And now so is Kylo.

Mocata said:

Snoke’s origin could have been included as one throwaway line. Which begs the question why does anyone want it, because he was just generic evil guy no.27. He killed someone or did something, who cares.

He turned Han and Leia’s only son to the Dark Side, and through this destroyed Luke’s Jedi academy. He is personally responsible for building a weapon of unfathomable power using unexplained technology, and destroying the entire New Republic.

He is the most personally and inexplicably calamitous force in the lives of the OT characters in The Force Awakens.

Making him into generic evil guy no.27 means that everything our heroes have ever fought for was undone by generic evil guy no.27.

I’m not even that annoyed by it, but I can see how some people would be.

ray_afraid said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

NeverarGreat said:

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.

Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.

We didn’t need to know who the Emperor was or how he rose to power because that happened before our story started. Wanting to know who this guy is, where he’s been all this time and how he undid what our OT heroes accomplished so quickly is very different.
I got no dog in this fight, but this is a defense I see often and it doesn’t work.

Exactly. The Emperor was a part of the table setting in the original film, taken as a given. If you then change the story, you have to give a reason why.

Say that the OT was never filmed, with the movies going straight from ROTS to TFA. The opening crawl states that some Rebellion arose and destroyed the Empire and Luke overthrew the old regime almost singlehandedly. You’d probably feel cheated out of a pretty important story, wouldn’t you?

DominicCobb said:

As for how they know, as usual the final scene in Star Wars is ambiguously displaced from the timeline of the rest of the film. Who knows when that was.

Agree with everything you said, but ambiguously displaced endings are more of a prequels thing than an OT thing, since in the OT none of the endings require a time jump of more than a few hours.

At one point in the Restructured thread we discussed adding a scene where the Republic agrees to support the Resistance, but it comes too late to stop the destruction of the Hosnian system.

Considering that the Resistance seemingly comes into possession of quite a few ships right after the events of TFA, it makes such a scene all the more appropriate.

I imagine that the scene would happen during the final cutaway to the Resistance, and be in the form of a transmission from an alien diplomat. Something like:

“General, we have heard your plea for help. Reinforcements are being fueled for immediate launch.”

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

Looks like he’s disabled all comments now.

Seems like quite a guy.

JEDTIT: And they’re back. Weird.

I had thought both times that this happens as the Falcon is in hyperspace, hence the blue streak across the sky. Granted that it’s a different planet, but I figured this was more JJ style fudging of time and space. And how would people in the galaxy even hear of Luke’s Crait actions unless the Resistance was broadcasting it Mr Universe style? I guess I just assumed they were playing out some imaginary scenario based on Luke’s legend, and not his real actions.

The full Last Jedi script is now online.

Huh, didn’t get that from two viewings. Guess I need a third?

The Radio Drama is so wonderfully earnest and cheesy (in a good way!), that I simply can’t find any fault in it at all.

I’m still torn between cutting the evacuation and leaving it in, but for the following idea all that would be gone.

Have the movie open with first couple of scenes with Rey and Luke on the island. Right after Luke says ‘It’s time for the Jedi to end’, cut to the kids on Canto Bight playing with their Luke doll, and the slave master ruining their fun. Cut before the magic broom. Perhaps have some shot establishing that they are caring for the animals, then begin the Canto Bight scenes as edited.

In this way, the Luke doll acts as the thematic visual link between the casino and the primary plot, and it more organically sets up the final shots of the movie.

ChainsawAsh said:

Not my post, but - thoughts? https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/7nxyy0/spoilers_the_importance_of_poe_reys_interaction/?st=jc00bqeb&sh=1a8b0e07

I appreciate the idea behind this exchange, but it’s another instance where JJ dropped the ball in TFA. Poe is the one who rushes Finn from the Falcon while Rey watches, and they’re both standing in the group of people watching the map being reassembled. I assumed that they had met during these scenes. The meaningful encounter should have been with Rose.

Now you’ve made me put my fanfiction hat on.

So what if after the speeder run, Rose had said:
"This is how we win. Not by fighting what we hate…"
Then she loses consciousness.

Then during the final scene on the Falcon, she comes to and Finn rushes over to her, followed by Rey.
Finn: "Are you okay?"
Rose: "Of course."
Finn: "Oh, Rose, this is…"
Rey: "Rey."
Rose: "I know. You saved each other."
Finn and Rey exchange looks. Finn looks back to Rose.
Finn: "You were trying to tell me something, after the crash."
Rose: (waving away his prompt) "I thought I was dying."
Finn: (insistent) "You said that this was how we would win, not by fighting what we hate…"
Rose: (gazing at Finn) "…but by saving what we love."
She looks to Rey.
“You’re a lucky guy, Finn.”

Cutting through the misunderstanding, Finn kisses Rose with a moderate amount of passion.

Rey is extremely glad about it, and goes to hang out with Chewie and the Porgs.

I love what this has become.

Am I doing it right?

Kylo will become a sort of God King ruling over the galaxy who forcibly recruits and trains a vast number of Force Sensitive pupils to become the new Knights of Ren, and creates a new Senate to keep the peace. Rey must then defeat Kylo by turning these students against their teacher, where they oust him from power. The students are reunited with their families from across the galaxy where they become local guardians of peace and justice, while the new Senate becomes a democratic institution freed the influence of Sith tyrants or corrupt Jedi Orders.

Rey, following her dreams, becomes the lead chef of a popular galactic cooking show.
Finn writes a tell-all book about his time in the First Order, and is the principal of a school for deprogramming First Order soldiers.
Rose becomes a hard-hitting anti-corruption journalist and avid antique dealer.
Kylo and Hux run rival demolition and scrap metal companies which are both eventually bought out by Watto Inc.
Poe becomes a Holovid personality and talk show host as an expert on human-cyborg relations.
R2-D2 and C-3PO run a highly experimental and dangerous space-time travel agency which is shut down after Leia Organa disappears while visiting Alderaan circa 50 BBY.
BB-8 becomes a movie star and after a hundred years of fabulous stardom becomes president of the galaxy.

DrDre Said:

Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.

Photorealistic CGI faces are hard. Photorealistic CGI performances are ten times harder, even with really good motion capture. An example from Blade Runner 2049: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV34mT5m0bM

In the side-by-side comparisons, the digital double looks nigh indistinguishable from the original, but translating that into an entirely new performance leaves a lot to be desired. Look at the eyes - human eyes constantly shift and refocus in a dance of micromovements, and you can see the model shifting its eyes in a way that mimics how humans scan another human’s face, but it is still too slow and obvious. Similarly, there is a lack of coordination between the muscles of the face, and that same smooth animated feel. In reality, the muscles of the face are constantly twitching in close coordination to betray the extremely subtle emotions that may not even register to our conscious minds.

All of these problems were apparent in Tarkin and Leia from Rogue One.

CatBus said:

NeverarGreat said:

From Donald Trump:
“North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!”

From the Twitter Rules:
“You may not make specific threats of violence or wish for the serious physical harm, death, or disease of an individual or group of people.”

Open and shut case.

Actually I think there have been far clearer violations, but they’re numerous enough everything else is just gravy.

I’m sure there are, I was just using this one example.

One argument that I hear against Luke is that his failure led to the First Order, but that’s clearly not true. Snoke had already turned Ben while Luke was still training him, so clearly the First Order was well-established long before Luke’s mistake. All Luke did was to accelerate Ben’s defection. In fact, if he had waited to confront Ben, the situation could have been worse because of Ben’s additional training.

From Donald Trump:
“North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!”

From the Twitter Rules:
“You may not make specific threats of violence or wish for the serious physical harm, death, or disease of an individual or group of people.”

Open and shut case.

yhwx said:

What the heck is a binary load lifter?

Robotic forklift?

Robot Chicken did it first.