NeverarGreat

True.

DominicCobb said:

The Resistance fits on the Falcon at the end of the film. Not dire at all.

Actually, now that I think about it some more, this is another reason why the drama of TLJ rings so hollow. It felt like the entire Resistance in TFA was no more than about a hundred and fifty people with a dozen X-wings and a transport to their name. So in the next movie they suddenly have a massive cruiser and a bombing fleet which would have been very helpful in attacking the Starkiller Base, and which expand their numbers only so they can be whittled down again.

In Empire we only followed a small band of Rebels, and that operation seemed more massive than the entire Resistance. The movie used our lack of information about the Rebellion to its advantage, by just showing us a group which was in desperate straits. But in TFA and especially TLJ, we are told explicitly that this is all that’s left, which implies that the pitiful group in TFA was all there was at the beginning, bolstered by a cruiser that Rian thought the story needed.

That’s why it doesn’t seem dire. The extra Resistance fighters come from nowhere and are lost just as pointlessly, and in terms of a galactic Rebellion, what difference is a cruiser full of troops or a light freighter full of them against the First Order? At least the Falcon can escape more easily.

DominicCobb said:

Would be cool to give the Falcon a slightly different look, like red stripes or something.

I really would have liked a lot more battle damage and general wear and tear. Maybe show that the top gunner turret was blown out and had to have metal plating covering it. Would have explained why Finn and Rey were acting like there was only one operational turret in TFA.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I’m not investigating the reason for her victories, only that they seem to happen. And she did win in TLJ. Just think it through. If two people who are battling alone get knocked unconscious, the first one to recover has the power of life or death over the other. Rey has won. That she doesn’t kill Kylo doesn’t change the fact that she was completely capable of doing so.

Hero doesn’t kill unconscious villain. Big powerful victory there.

Glad that you acknowledge it.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Ha, you’re not going to trap me into pedantically stating that movies are usually designed to make the villains seem overwhelmingly powerful and the hero’s situation dire. You’re definitely not going to make me say that it’s important to show that the villains are an existential threat to our heroes on every level, because that’s just an obvious statement about movies that everyone knows.

The Resistance fits on the Falcon at the end of the film. Not dire at all.

They have everything that they need, apparently. They’ll be fine.
At least, that’s what I got from it.

We’ve got a winner!

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I’m not investigating the reason for her victories, only that they seem to happen. And she did win in TLJ. Just think it through. If two people who are battling alone get knocked unconscious, the first one to recover has the power of life or death over the other. Rey has won. That she doesn’t kill Kylo doesn’t change the fact that she was completely capable of doing so.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Ha, you’re not going to trap me into pedantically stating that movies are usually designed to make the villains seem overwhelmingly powerful and the hero’s situation dire. You’re definitely not going to make me say that it’s important to show that the villains are an existential threat to our heroes on every level, because that’s just an obvious statement about movies that everyone knows.

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus declares himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of calling himself a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.

But Dre, she hasn’t built her own lightsaber yet, or gotten her Jedi papers processed at the space DMV. There’s still a correspondence course in galactic governance, some communications classes…

yotsuya said:

And let’s not forget that the Jedi Academy is a school. They come as children and the Jedi have to teach them literally everything. Reading, writing, math, science, history, as well as the Jedi powers, Jedi code, law, diplomacy, lightsaber combat, hand to hand combat, leadership, tactics, technology, piloting, driving, etc. Being a Jedi in the Old Republic is so much more than lifting rocks. But when you start ticking things off, a lot of that can be learned elsewhere. In the PT we never see Jedi powers taught. We see some younglings practicing with a lightsaber (an indication of how elementary what Luke is learning in ANH is) and we see two padawan accompanying their masters on missions. By that stage they have learned all their classroom lessions and are doing their apprenticeship in the field. In the OT we see one lesson with Obi-wan for deflecting blaster bolts and then lessons with Yoda levitating rocks (perfecting what Luke had done earlier in the Wampa cave without any instruction). That is all we know. Anything else is guess work. Rey went to Luke expecting training to manage and perfect her use of what she had learned from Kylo Ren, but Luke only gave her the basics. So she took the texts and left. Oh, from kind of a throw away line, evidently Ben Solo was the same type of natural she is.

So I really don’t understand this insistance that this violates the previous 6 films. I also don’t understand how it is Rian Johnson’s fault when the character was created this by JJ Abrams. Rian gave her a nice arc about facing her parentage and being rejected by Luke and accepted by Kylo, but she can’t join Kylo. He did not give her a bunch of new force powers on top of what she already had.

What Luke and the baby Jedi are learning is how to trust your extrasensory perception/prediction abilities. This is what allows Anakin to succeed at Podracing, and presumably what makes Luke such a gifted pilot as well. That is the one ability which is established as present at a young age. This is why I can see why Rey would be so good at piloting the Falcon - it’s an ability that requires you only sense the Force, and allow it to guide your actions with regards to self-preservation. This is also why I don’t think it’s crazy that Leia was able to do what she did in TLJ.

But telekinesis and mind control? These are things which we have only seen Force users do after years of effort. And I do think that the Wampa cave was meant to show that Luke taught himself some Jedi tricks in the years between movies, probably with some ghost Obi-wan help.

I don’t think anyone’s saying that Rian is primarily at fault for these issues. He merely continued in JJ’s trajectory, which makes me think that there’s some sort of explanation coming in 9, though the individual movies should stand on their own.

That all looks very good!

One thing I’d suggest is removing the shot of the planet, since it probably wouldn’t be in view as they were flying away from the Supremacy, and there would also be a lot of fire and debris still to clear.

Either that or show the single shot of the ship leaving the exploding hangar, then have the entire deleted scene without a cut back to the ship still exiting the debris. You could instead just show the end of the shot where it slowly zooms in on the throne room section.

Hal 9000 said:

This thing might not be as ‘out there’ as I assumed. I believe I have the resources I would need for ESB and ROTJ, or I would only need minimal help. No promises, as I am very busy, but I’m going to let this incubate.

JEDIT: The biggest problem will be source material. NeverarGreat’s color correction of ANH is fantastic, but I don’t see anything comparable for ESB and ROTJ. I would need a suitable primary source for the 2004/2011 version to begin with, in the same vein of NeverarGreat’s ANH.

Neverar, are you planning to give the other two the same treatment? DrDre has a thread about matching ESB to the SE grade which looked pretty good, too. For ESB and ROTJ, matching the OOT or 1997 SE would be perfectly fine. (ANH’s 1997 SE transfer had some color issues, and your technicolor grade for it leaves nothing to be desired.)

I don’t see doing the other two any time soon if at all, unfortunately. Maybe when Poita’s unfaded scan of Empire is released and we see how crummy the Blu-ray is in comparison, but otherwise I’m hoping to focus on the Starlight fanedit(s).

Except that TFA makes a big point of saying how Finn doesn’t know how to drive, and in ANH Han is skeptical that either Luke or Obi-wan could fly his spaceship. So maybe piloting is like flying a plane and takes some training, moreso than a car.

I’m calling it now - the Big Three will all be Force Ghosts by the end (yes, even Han somehow) and they’ll all appear to Rey as a mirror to Luke’s scene in ROTJ.

Collipso said:

several people.

What is this, a spaceship for ants?!

You’re forgetting the most important ingredient in mastery of any skill. We see Anakin levitating objects fully ten years after he starts his Jedi training. Luke does this (presumably for the first time) several years after beginning to learn of his ability, and I’m guessing that he could have asked around about the Jedi and their most famous ability during that time. We also don’t know if Ben has been actively helping him during this time like he did during the Death Star battle. I don’t see why he wouldn’t.

The great thing about a time jump in the story is that it allows for the audience to interpret any number of intervening events which help their suspension of disbelief. TFA and TLJ strip this from the audience, forcing them to accept what happens on screen or concoct ever more flimsy justifications.

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I find it interesting that they specifically said Carrie’s stuff would be unused TFA footage, implying that they won’t also be using any unused TLJ footage on top of that.

I think there probably just isn’t any unused TLJ stuff.

Which is a shame, I much preferred the lighting and costume from TLJ - she just looked so regal.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

I think the geography of the scene doesn’t allow for this idea to fully work. There really needs to be a definitive shot of Rose getting shot down, and closer to the weapon. As it is, Finn quickly runs right to her even though they’re supposed to be really far apart in this idea.

Rewatching the original scene, I had a rather different idea. The main problem with the scene for me is how Finn is clearly on a kamikaze mission, and therefore believes that ramming his ship bodily into the weapon has at least a chance of working. When Rose stops him, the undeniable fact is that Rose has wiped out any chance of stopping the weapon before it fires, and risked both of their lives to do it.

My idea is that you could edit the scene so that the implication is that the speeders must use their weapons to destroy the laser, and when it begins to open it will render their weapons inoperative. To do this, have the ships getting picked off and then cut to Poe deciding against the attack. He orders the retreat, but Finn is still gunning for the weapon. He says ‘All craft, pull away!’ (no ‘suicide run’). But then Finn asks ‘What?’ as if his comm is malfunctioning. ‘Retreat, Finn, that’s an order!’ But all Finn hears is static. He doesn’t see the other craft pulling away, and pushes his defective comm up. Rose shouts at him, but he’s clearly not receiving her. He goes into the beam and his weapons crumple, but he again doesn’t notice, and doesn’t close his eyes as he approaches the weapon. Then Rose slams into him and the scene ends as normal.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Yeah, that would be like revealing two already established seemingly unrelated characters are actually brother and sister! Who pulls that out in the third film and expects to get away with it? 😛

Hopefully JJ is smart enough to follow through on what he set up in TFA (and Rian expanded on) and doesn’t feel pressure from fans to shoehorn in some random bullshit “explanation” that won’t stack up against the rest of the story being told.

That’s the conundrum here though isn’t it. To a lot of fans Rey’s history with the Force already doesn’t stack up with the rest of the story being told, namely the first six films. The Force semi-randomly bestowing Force powers on anyone considered “worthy”, whatever that may mean, replaces the genetic lotery introduced by Lucas with a cosmic one, the net effect actually being worse overall imo, because aside from the fact, that you still have to be lucky enough to be born with the potential apparently, you now also just get the powers that go with that potential without earning them, or without going through what was once the inevitable temptation of the dark side. The latter is sadly reinforced by the way Ben Solo is presented in this trilogy thusfar, reducing him to little more than just a bad seed, a foil for Rey’s apparent innate goodness. Some may argue we didn’t know much about Vader’s motivations for falling to the dark side, but I would counter that with the observation, that in many ways Luke’s journey delibirately mirrors his father’s from TESB onwards, highlighting the similarity in their characters to reinforce the idea, that Luke runs the risk of following in his father’s footsteps. This thematic connection between the main protagonist, and antagonist enhances both their characters unlike the somewhat contrived idea of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”, which turns Rey into a slave of destiny, a sock puppet of the light side of the Force.

One could say that Rey is the anti-Luke: Incorruptible whereas Luke was tempted by the Dark Side, constantly looking back as Luke perpetually looks forward, preternaturally able in all ways where Luke failed again and again, arriving mature whereas Luke begins very much as a child, coming from nothing whereas Luke comes from the strongest Skywalker blood.

SilverWook said:

Maybe the Dark Side hasn’t figured out how to tempt Rey yet.

I never really got a romantic vibe from Rey/Finn - they mostly seem like people who became friends by going through similar trials.

Poe/Finn on the other hand…

Nate D said:

Incredible workmanship, 44rh1n, this is awesome news! I am not familiar with the Spleen. Doesn’t it require you to be invited by someone already a member? Is it not possible to offer this anywhere else that is more accessible than there? Many thanks!

The 'spleen is closed to new members for the forseeable future, so hopefully this project will be made available via other means as well.

Yeah, I’m hoping to fix the computer situation soon and get some mockups of these ideas.

paja said:

Has anyone watched a star wars film in B&W?

Yes.
https://ifdb.fanedit.org/star-wars-silent-edition-episode-vii/

RogueLeader said:

So with the ending scene, you would intercut between when Rey is leaving and when Rey has already reached Luke? Hmm, I see what you’re going for, but I’m not sure that would work. You’d probably be better off either including the Ach-To ending or just end after the Falcon jumps into hyperspace like you were planing to do.

You’re probably right about that. Though I do think the Jedi Steps music would work for the truncated ending.

I was just looking for another place to put the final bit of that Luke scene, and realized that there was one more place where Rey was unconscious - in the forest with Kylo.

This might actually be a perfect place to put the end of the scene. It’s not too long after the interrogation so it makes sense as a dream that is continuing after an interruption, and it’s another unconsciousness induced by Kylo so that aspect is the same. I imagine that she would get knocked out, then as she hits the ground we see her standing in front of the hooded figure of Luke. Finn rushes over but can’t revive her, and fights Kylo. he screams, and Rey begins to move and open her eyes, but she still sees Luke standing there, turning to face her. Finn is knocked out, the lightsaber flying into the snow. Rey sees Luke stare piercingly at her, and she takes out the lightsaber and holds it in front of her, her expression turning to one of acceptance and determination. Kylo tries to summon the saber, but it flies into Rey’s outstretched hand. She has made her decision. Music swells.