NeverarGreat

What is this, a spaceship for ants?!

You’re forgetting the most important ingredient in mastery of any skill. We see Anakin levitating objects fully ten years after he starts his Jedi training. Luke does this (presumably for the first time) several years after beginning to learn of his ability, and I’m guessing that he could have asked around about the Jedi and their most famous ability during that time. We also don’t know if Ben has been actively helping him during this time like he did during the Death Star battle. I don’t see why he wouldn’t.

The great thing about a time jump in the story is that it allows for the audience to interpret any number of intervening events which help their suspension of disbelief. TFA and TLJ strip this from the audience, forcing them to accept what happens on screen or concoct ever more flimsy justifications.

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I find it interesting that they specifically said Carrie’s stuff would be unused TFA footage, implying that they won’t also be using any unused TLJ footage on top of that.

I think there probably just isn’t any unused TLJ stuff.

Which is a shame, I much preferred the lighting and costume from TLJ - she just looked so regal.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

I think the geography of the scene doesn’t allow for this idea to fully work. There really needs to be a definitive shot of Rose getting shot down, and closer to the weapon. As it is, Finn quickly runs right to her even though they’re supposed to be really far apart in this idea.

Rewatching the original scene, I had a rather different idea. The main problem with the scene for me is how Finn is clearly on a kamikaze mission, and therefore believes that ramming his ship bodily into the weapon has at least a chance of working. When Rose stops him, the undeniable fact is that Rose has wiped out any chance of stopping the weapon before it fires, and risked both of their lives to do it.

My idea is that you could edit the scene so that the implication is that the speeders must use their weapons to destroy the laser, and when it begins to open it will render their weapons inoperative. To do this, have the ships getting picked off and then cut to Poe deciding against the attack. He orders the retreat, but Finn is still gunning for the weapon. He says ‘All craft, pull away!’ (no ‘suicide run’). But then Finn asks ‘What?’ as if his comm is malfunctioning. ‘Retreat, Finn, that’s an order!’ But all Finn hears is static. He doesn’t see the other craft pulling away, and pushes his defective comm up. Rose shouts at him, but he’s clearly not receiving her. He goes into the beam and his weapons crumple, but he again doesn’t notice, and doesn’t close his eyes as he approaches the weapon. Then Rose slams into him and the scene ends as normal.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Yeah, that would be like revealing two already established seemingly unrelated characters are actually brother and sister! Who pulls that out in the third film and expects to get away with it? 😛

Hopefully JJ is smart enough to follow through on what he set up in TFA (and Rian expanded on) and doesn’t feel pressure from fans to shoehorn in some random bullshit “explanation” that won’t stack up against the rest of the story being told.

That’s the conundrum here though isn’t it. To a lot of fans Rey’s history with the Force already doesn’t stack up with the rest of the story being told, namely the first six films. The Force semi-randomly bestowing Force powers on anyone considered “worthy”, whatever that may mean, replaces the genetic lotery introduced by Lucas with a cosmic one, the net effect actually being worse overall imo, because aside from the fact, that you still have to be lucky enough to be born with the potential apparently, you now also just get the powers that go with that potential without earning them, or without going through what was once the inevitable temptation of the dark side. The latter is sadly reinforced by the way Ben Solo is presented in this trilogy thusfar, reducing him to little more than just a bad seed, a foil for Rey’s apparent innate goodness. Some may argue we didn’t know much about Vader’s motivations for falling to the dark side, but I would counter that with the observation, that in many ways Luke’s journey delibirately mirrors his father’s from TESB onwards, highlighting the similarity in their characters to reinforce the idea, that Luke runs the risk of following in his father’s footsteps. This thematic connection between the main protagonist, and antagonist enhances both their characters unlike the somewhat contrived idea of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”, which turns Rey into a slave of destiny, a sock puppet of the light side of the Force.

One could say that Rey is the anti-Luke: Incorruptible whereas Luke was tempted by the Dark Side, constantly looking back as Luke perpetually looks forward, preternaturally able in all ways where Luke failed again and again, arriving mature whereas Luke begins very much as a child, coming from nothing whereas Luke comes from the strongest Skywalker blood.

SilverWook said:

Maybe the Dark Side hasn’t figured out how to tempt Rey yet.

I never really got a romantic vibe from Rey/Finn - they mostly seem like people who became friends by going through similar trials.

Poe/Finn on the other hand…

Nate D said:

Incredible workmanship, 44rh1n, this is awesome news! I am not familiar with the Spleen. Doesn’t it require you to be invited by someone already a member? Is it not possible to offer this anywhere else that is more accessible than there? Many thanks!

The 'spleen is closed to new members for the forseeable future, so hopefully this project will be made available via other means as well.

Yeah, I’m hoping to fix the computer situation soon and get some mockups of these ideas.

paja said:

Has anyone watched a star wars film in B&W?

Yes.
https://ifdb.fanedit.org/star-wars-silent-edition-episode-vii/

RogueLeader said:

So with the ending scene, you would intercut between when Rey is leaving and when Rey has already reached Luke? Hmm, I see what you’re going for, but I’m not sure that would work. You’d probably be better off either including the Ach-To ending or just end after the Falcon jumps into hyperspace like you were planing to do.

You’re probably right about that. Though I do think the Jedi Steps music would work for the truncated ending.

I was just looking for another place to put the final bit of that Luke scene, and realized that there was one more place where Rey was unconscious - in the forest with Kylo.

This might actually be a perfect place to put the end of the scene. It’s not too long after the interrogation so it makes sense as a dream that is continuing after an interruption, and it’s another unconsciousness induced by Kylo so that aspect is the same. I imagine that she would get knocked out, then as she hits the ground we see her standing in front of the hooded figure of Luke. Finn rushes over but can’t revive her, and fights Kylo. he screams, and Rey begins to move and open her eyes, but she still sees Luke standing there, turning to face her. Finn is knocked out, the lightsaber flying into the snow. Rey sees Luke stare piercingly at her, and she takes out the lightsaber and holds it in front of her, her expression turning to one of acceptance and determination. Kylo tries to summon the saber, but it flies into Rey’s outstretched hand. She has made her decision. Music swells.

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope.

Someone seems to be conveniently forgetting The Phantom Menace.

Who dies in that one? The only main character to die in their own trilogy was Padme. Each trilogy has a trio of characters with some side characters. Obi-wan, Anakin, and Padme in the PT. Luke, Leia, and Han in the OT, Finn, Rey, and Poe in the ST. The Jedi mentor has died in each trilogy (Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Luke). Other characters die (Darth Maul, Mace and most of the Jedi, Jango Fett, most of the fighter pilots in ANH, Boba Fett, Jabba). But many others live. But the main trio will live to the end of the trilogy. And R2 and 3PO are around to the very end. People die when it is important to the story that they die.

Sure we don’t think Finn will die (though I thought we were judging the movie on its own terms, not in terms of the broader Star Wars saga). But is Finn’s plot armor the reason Rose saves him? Besides, you’re conflating the idea of whether he could sacrifice himself to destroy the weapon with whether he will. We know he doesn’t, but this has no bearing on whether or not he could physically have accomplished the task had he not been diverted.

Under that reasoning Vader could never have possibly shot Luke in the Death Star trench because Luke had to survive into the next movie. The fact that he almost certainly won’t does not mean that he was physically unable - quite the opposite in fact.

I’ll have to get into the editing and music for this project before making any final determination about whether or not to keep the original ending or use it in other ways throughout, but one of the reasons for ending the movie with her leaving the base is to keep the story firmly an ensemble with Rey and Finn. When Rey leaves Finn to go off on her own, it sends the message that Rey is the new Luke, even when Finn has had as much screen time and is really a co-lead.

And yeah, I would like to do an extended journey where I could use the credits version of Rey’s theme, but it would take a lot of vfx work or repurposing a lot of footage that we don’t have at the moment.

The latest idea I had for a potential ending is dependent on the music working, but it would go something like this throughout the movie:

-Reydream (when eating dinner at sunset)
…
-Dream of exploring the island + Jedi Texts + Maybe the cloaked figure of Luke (right between Han and Leia’s conversation and Rey waking up for the interrogation) Jedi Steps begins, to about the 1 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUBUlKgsNK8
…
-R2 finds the rest of the map, the map is complete, closeup on Rey, closeup on the holographic path to Luke. Music transitions to the Jedi Steps again, this time from 1 minute to 1:37, along with a wipe or other visual transition indicating the passage of time - a Force vision or dream. Rey climbs the steps and Luke turns. Now we see his face for the first time, and here she offers up the lightsaber. Another wipe as the music goes quiet, and it transitions to Rey saying goodbye to Finn, perhaps along with that original music. Leia says her goodbyes to Rey, she boards the Falcon, and it takes off to the final notes of the Jedi Steps.

So again, very dependent on whether the music works and it reads correctly on screen, but that’s the best way I can think to include the emotional beats of the original film in this new structure.

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope.

Someone seems to be conveniently forgetting The Phantom Menace.

RogueLeader said:

There’s both pros and cons to this idea.

It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to suggest this, since it almost seems like Obi-Wan was trying to communicate with Rey during her vision. You can hear old Obi say “Rey” and young Obi say “These are your first steps.”

You might could subtly add Obi-Wan’s line regarding the Force having a strong influence on the weak-minded right before Rey tries to use a mind trick. I’m not sure where Yoda’s voice could be added besides the Force vision…

Maybe instead of hearing the sound of a child (young Rey) crying in Maz’s castle, Yoda’s voice could be calling her towards the lightsaber. Though this could take away from her hearing her own cries and what that means. Though I’m not sure how it is related to the saber exactly, but it could just represent its connection to the Force and the past, both to Rey’s and the Skywalkers’.

When Kylo and Rey are clashing sabers, maybe one of their voices could be heard saying something while Rey’s eyes are closed. Like, Yoda or Obi-Wan saying “Let go [Rey].”

I think these type of additions shouldn’t necessarily be blatant, but they could hint that they are taking an active role from the netherworld.

Though one could argue that this could take away from Rey’s own agency, since she would be basically getting help from others. But if you just simply replace the apparent “will of the Force” with the hint that is Yoda and Obi-Wan, you wouldn’t be making it any more Deus Ex Machina than it already is at least, if that is how one interprets it.

And at least now it is other characters that are driving these moments rather than the Force in a very ambiguous way, if that makes sense. Also, if you make it seem that Rey has a choice to listen to them or not, then I think she would retain her agency.

Regardless, I think one should also look at Rey’s abilities from a narrative and thematic perspective. You could argue that Rey is a fast learner because she simply just believes in the Force enough that she can do it. She doesn’t have the same kind of self-doubt that young Luke had. And Rey is demonstrated to be a good fighter, so her being able to get the hang of a lightsaber quickly isn’t too much a stretch either. Once you know how to tap into the Force, it can help control your actions while also obeying your commands, like Obi-Wan said. So her being good at various things is basically her partially letting herself go and letting the Force guide her.

Actually, this interpretation isn’t really far off from your Obi-Wan/Yoda idea, so you could go with this approach and argue that they are just an extension of the will of the Force, acting on its behalf.

I would interpret this as Yoda and Obi-Wan guiding Rey to connect to the Force, rather than Yoda or Obi-Wan acting through her directly. The Force is flowing through her, and Yoda and Obi-Wan are now one with the Force. It is both controlling Rey’s actions but also obeying her commands. In a way, adding Obi and Yoda’s voices is merely giving the character of the Force a voice.

I like this interpretation. This is the 7th movie after all, and to have a completely new ‘chosen one’ who happens to be super competent at everything including the Force, to an extent that we’ve never seen in the universe before, is really unfortunate. But if I could somehow make it seem like the Force has more of a character due to Yoda and Obi-wan, then it might help the audience identify with Rey’s character even more. After all, we know and trust these Jedi masters (or at least Yoda), so to give the Force some overtly Yoda-ish characteristics would continue that strong directive from the last movie (Returning the Jedi to the galaxy), in a way that is unexpected but actually quite logical.

And maybe this doesn’t even need to be done in TFA. It could be treated more as a revelation, and be built up to in TLJ somehow. I kind of like the idea of faint, ghostly Yoda laughter when Rey lifts the rocks at the end. But if it was fairly clearly established in TFA, then it might be more believable for the audience when Rey is lecturing old man Luke on being a Jedi, since she’s being aided by Luke’s former mentors and perhaps even being sent to the island as a lesson for the old man.

Indeed.

On another note, I was thinking about Rey in this movie and how she has so much power, and it made me think back to the Original Trilogy. After Obi-wan dies, claiming that he will be more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine, he then doesn’t really do anything except talk to Luke for the rest of the film. I have thought the possibility exists that it was Obi-wan who guided Luke’s hand in taking out the Death Star, and in many of his feats with the Force in ESB, since he later claims that he ‘cannot interfere’ with the Vader duel. This implies that he could have interfered with other things, and now we learn in TLJ that a Force Ghost can indeed interfere in the physical world in dramatic ways.

So my idea for TFA is that Yoda (and maybe Obi-wan) is guiding Rey throughout the movie, directly influencing and augmenting her power.

It may not be as crazy as it seems - after all, one of the interpretations of the ST so far is that Rey has been chosen by the Force to counterbalance the darkness of Snoke and Kylo Ren. This is problematic if your view of the Force is one of a passive energy field only activated and guided by people. Enter Yoda, who was unable to contact Luke after he closed himself off from the Force and was forced to find someone else to rescue the ancient texts and pass on the 20,000 year legacy of the Jedi. And it would make sense that Rey would never see Yoda, since one hypothesis of Force Ghosts is that they are not visible to anyone who didn’t know them in life.

Since this is only a preliminary idea, I’m open to suggestions as to how this could be hinted out in the edit (if at all) - maybe have some ghostly Yoda echoes in Rey’s visions perhaps? Some specific sound effect linked to Obi-wan or Yoda when Rey is accomplishing her feats of Forcery? Or should it be more subtle?

I assume you know of my version of ANH, which is a hybrid Special Edition conforming to several of your desired changes. 😉

Chewielewis said:

Collipso said:
and you’re doing exactly what jay described. “as it is supposed to be interpreted”. great.

Well there is an intended interpretation. Filmmakers don’t just throw stuff on the page and hope it all makes sense (ok some do). You can watch a scene and ask “What is the film TRYING to say here, what is the intent.” And it should be pretty clear.

You can make your own interpretations all you want, thats up to the viewer. If the film has a failing its that so many have taken the wrong ideas from it.

What you’re describing is appreciating a film for what it’s trying to do rather than what it does, which is completely fair. I appreciate Lynch’s Dune and the new Westworld show for their ambition, while still recognizing that what appears onscreen does not really live up to that ambition.

TLJ has great ambitions, and I don’t fault it for that. For example, it allows for sophisticated and mature interpretations on the nature of a worthy sacrifice (Finn/Poe), the correct attitude towards failure (Luke/Rey), and the importance of faith in those wiser than yourself (Poe/Rey). But these are all lessons given by those placed in the story to antagonize our heroes, so the task for a filmmaker is difficult: they must overcome the skepticism of the audience, who identifies with the heroes, and turn them in favor of the antagonists. There is a natural resistance to learning a lesson, for a character in a story but also for an audience member.

When given the choice between learning a hard lesson and choosing an interpretation which allows them to avoid the lesson, they’ll usually take the alternate interpretation. The job of the filmmaker is to make it clear to the audience that the ‘correct’ interpretation is the easiest to accept. The Last Jedi fails to do this, to which multitudes of reviewers can attest.

I’ve heard it said that a filmmaker has just one job to do in making a film - to craft an experience which forces the audience to feel precisely what they intend them to feel, whether that be awe or horror of happiness or sadness, or a combination of any other feelings that these sounds and images can convey. They have the length of the film in which do to this, with every filmmaking trick they can muster. Sure, there are always going to be those people who will find ways to disagree with anything and everything in a movie, but if by the end of the movie a significant portion of the audience (many of whom are devoted fans of the franchise) feel something quite different than the rest, I’m tempted to lay this at the filmmaker’s feet.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Mavimao said:

Mocata said:

snooker said:

We never got the Maz Leia scene from TFA, did we? They’ll probably pull footage/dialogue from that.

Maybe. There’s also another deleted scene that was on the home release. The Oliver Reed in Gladiator treatment would be fine, depending on what they have to work with.

I saw on Twitter that there was also a scene filmed of Leia at the Republic asking for ressources.

Are you sure it’s not the included deleted scene where she sends Kor Sella to the Senate? Or maybe a scene of Kor Sella at the Senate, and not Leia?

Considering Kor Sella (and the Republic Senate) dies in TFA, I wouldn’t think any of that would work for IX.

I’m just wondering why, from what we know of the deleted scenes, Leia would have gone to the Senate.

Mavimao said:

Mocata said:

snooker said:

We never got the Maz Leia scene from TFA, did we? They’ll probably pull footage/dialogue from that.

Maybe. There’s also another deleted scene that was on the home release. The Oliver Reed in Gladiator treatment would be fine, depending on what they have to work with.

I saw on Twitter that there was also a scene filmed of Leia at the Republic asking for ressources.

Are you sure it’s not the included deleted scene where she sends Kor Sella to the Senate? Or maybe a scene of Kor Sella at the Senate, and not Leia?

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

I think a lot of the disagreements over this movie have to do with situations in which a subtle shift in one’s interpretation lead to dramatically different readings of the movie at large. For example, when Finn is making his sacrificial run at the laser weapon and Rose saves him, there are two main ways to interpret the scene:

1. Finn had a shot at destroying the weapon, but Rose valued Finn’s life over the destruction of the weapon. Because of this, Rose’s actions were misguided and would have doomed the Resistance were it not for Luke’s intervention.

2. Finn had no chance of destroying the weapon, and his sacrifice, while a culmination of his character arc in the film, would have ultimately been a senseless waste. Rose acted rightly.

The trouble with these two interpretations is that they’re both equally valid in terms of what we see on screen. If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order. But he instead implied that it would take a suicide run to destroy the weapon, making Finn’s action heroic from the first interpretation.

This is just one example. This and others (such as Holdo’s leadership, Luke’s murderous moment, etc) rest on the shakiest ground for the audience to interpret in the way the filmmakers intend.

I would disagree. I think the the film has everything you need to interpret it the way it was intended. The problem is that sometimes it takes multiple viewings to get everything. On first viewing you might ignore the crumpling of Finn’s craft’s weapons, but on additional viewings it becomes clear that Finn stands no chance, at least not the way he is doing it. He is trying to fly down the barrel of the weapon, at the heart of the growing beam, and it will destroy him before he can damage it. To come to another conclusion requires ignoring information in the film. Most of the scenes being argued about have a lot of information if you pay attention and look. And I know many who didn’t like the film haven’t viewed it many times. Perhaps not enough to see the things that are quite clear to me and others. I get that TLJ was not to everyone’s taste, but some of the arguments put forth are really a stretch.

I assumed that since his weapons were rendered useless, he would have to ram the speeder into the barrel of the weapon to disable it, sacrificing himself in the process. This seems to be Finn’s thought process (who is actually the expert here), and it’s backed up by Poe who calls it a suicide mission. I don’t know where we’re supposed to get that it’s impossible for him to complete the mission.

If he is flying down the barrel of an active weapon and it has already started to crumple his craft - a craft already established a flimsy. Put the pieces together and there is no way this craft is massive enough to do any damage to the weapon before it is destroyed itself.

I would have thought that a hyperspace ramming maneuver wouldn’t have been supremely effective in this universe either based on the precisely zero times it has been considered before, but what do I know? I’d imagine that a twisted mass of metal jammed in the multitude of teeth of a rotating death ray might just do the trick, and as I’ve said before, Finn is the one who knows the most about First Order tech and its weaknesses.

He is flying down the beam so as he gets closer and the beam gets stronger the craft will be destroyed and never reach the target.

He was right in front of the opening when he was knocked off course, so his inertia alone would have been enough to do it.

Finn will die for nothing. Like I said, the pieces are there if you care to look. Saying it isn’t obvious is denying the pieces that are there in the images and dialog of the film. It was obvious to me on the first viewing that Finn didn’t stand a chance. The gun was too big and his little craft was too insignificant. And without weapons he won’t be able to do any damage.

I interpreted the crumpled weapons to mean that he couldn’t merely fire and escape the beam, but would have to crash his speeder into it. And even speeders can make big explosions when they crash.

If he was in an X-wing or a TESB speeder, I’d say he had a chance, but the pathetic craft he finds himself in doesn’t stand a chance. It is all there on screen.

The speeders are rickety, but still similar in mass and armament to a snowspeeder. If you say a snowspeeder would have a chance, then why not this one?

More than this quibbling over technical minutiae, this scene is clearly meant to thematically mirror the first scene of the movie where Poe’s reckless attack on the Dreadnought led to its destruction by a single flimsy bomber, at the cost of the bomber itself and most of the rest of the fleet. The audience is primed to expect a similar result in this case - a sacrificial act that destroys the target at too high a cost. If it is clear to you that his sacrifice will not even damage the weapon, then it must be especially clear to Finn. But after he has been knocked off course, he disbelievingly questions Rose about why she did that. She responds that the important thing is saving what you love, not destroying what you hate. How am I to interpret this other than Rose recognizing that he might have succeeded, but at the cost of what she loves?

And this is the major issue with many character moments in the film, and I think why people don’t buy it. There are reasonable interpretations on both sides for the rightness or wrongness of our hero’s actions, to the point where we can’t even be sure that our heroes (Poe, Finn, Rey) have made mistakes. Poe was justified in questioning authority and formulating his own plan. Finn was justified in wanting to save the Resistance at the cost of his own life. Rey was justified in attempting to turn Kylo to the light. This isn’t a case of Luke realizing the wrongness of abandoning his training to face Vader and suffering the consequences. This is a case of our heroes choosing the best of bad options and later being told they were wrong for choosing it, for no reason other than the movie decides it is so.

And guess what? Most people identify with the heroes, and don’t like being told they are wrong for no reason. And what lessons can our heroes hope to learn from this? Is it to blindly follow authority? Save a single person you love over many others? Don’t try to save a conflicted soul from the Dark Side? How can characters grow if their mistakes aren’t really mistakes?

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

I think a lot of the disagreements over this movie have to do with situations in which a subtle shift in one’s interpretation lead to dramatically different readings of the movie at large. For example, when Finn is making his sacrificial run at the laser weapon and Rose saves him, there are two main ways to interpret the scene:

1. Finn had a shot at destroying the weapon, but Rose valued Finn’s life over the destruction of the weapon. Because of this, Rose’s actions were misguided and would have doomed the Resistance were it not for Luke’s intervention.

2. Finn had no chance of destroying the weapon, and his sacrifice, while a culmination of his character arc in the film, would have ultimately been a senseless waste. Rose acted rightly.

The trouble with these two interpretations is that they’re both equally valid in terms of what we see on screen. If Poe had said something along the lines of ‘Retreat, nothing can stop it now!’, then it would have been clear that Finn was acting out of pure unthinking hatred for the First Order. But he instead implied that it would take a suicide run to destroy the weapon, making Finn’s action heroic from the first interpretation.

This is just one example. This and others (such as Holdo’s leadership, Luke’s murderous moment, etc) rest on the shakiest ground for the audience to interpret in the way the filmmakers intend.

I would disagree. I think the the film has everything you need to interpret it the way it was intended. The problem is that sometimes it takes multiple viewings to get everything. On first viewing you might ignore the crumpling of Finn’s craft’s weapons, but on additional viewings it becomes clear that Finn stands no chance, at least not the way he is doing it. He is trying to fly down the barrel of the weapon, at the heart of the growing beam, and it will destroy him before he can damage it. To come to another conclusion requires ignoring information in the film. Most of the scenes being argued about have a lot of information if you pay attention and look. And I know many who didn’t like the film haven’t viewed it many times. Perhaps not enough to see the things that are quite clear to me and others. I get that TLJ was not to everyone’s taste, but some of the arguments put forth are really a stretch.

I assumed that since his weapons were rendered useless, he would have to ram the speeder into the barrel of the weapon to disable it, sacrificing himself in the process. This seems to be Finn’s thought process (who is actually the expert here), and it’s backed up by Poe who calls it a suicide mission. I don’t know where we’re supposed to get that it’s impossible for him to complete the mission.

Since getting a clean ship isn’t an issue at any other time in the ST so far (at least I’d hope so or the entire Resistance is doomed), I’d get rid of those lines somehow.