- Post
- #1145630
- Topic
- I didn't like The Force Awakens. Should I see The Last Jedi in theaters? (NO SPOILERS)
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1145630/action/topic#1145630
- Time
Don’t watch it LOL
Don’t watch it LOL
You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.
I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…
I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.
I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more the obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.
That is a valid point, but I would argue that by doing that, you’re not really continuing the story. By doing that you are making a meta commentary on its earlier parts.
To be fair, that’s exactly what I said in one of my earlier posts. That’s what makes TLJ different for me.
You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.
I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…
I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.
I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.
TLJ is different to me not because of its plot choices but thematically. Its substance, outside of the superficial tropes and rearranged story beats, is incongruous with the rest of the franchise.
There are a bunch of core themes about good and evil, heroism, and redemption, that were essentially the heart guiding the past two trilogies. TLJ goes around to challenge those, and comments on the meta-narrative of the old stories rather than try to continue them.
It’s not different because of what happens in it. I mean, to an extent it makes unexpected choices, but it still borrows plot elements.
What makes it new is how it’s not beholden to what came before and isn’t particularly interested in setting up what comes after. It’s entirely character/theme driven, and the things it explores isn’t even trying to be classic SW.
I mean, I bought it.
But I was like five, so.
Most of us going “Luke really wouldn’t do that!” just plays into the whole theme of Luke as a legend and Luke as just a man. The idea that the legends had a clear hero’s journey in which Luke became and continued to become better is just that: a pretty story. As much as Luke learned, and as good of a person he is at his core, he’s still fallible. No one of us can say we hadn’t repeated our mistakes, or had moments we thought we were better than. There’s nothing more human than having one fleeting moment come and pass, changing everything, and you can never take it back. Luke had the galaxy on his shoulders, and he felt he failed it.
“I can’t be what she needs me to be!”
That theme connects to Poe/Finn’s plot too; their efforts to forge their own heroic legends, with the Dreadnought, with their “disable the tracker” plan, all ended up being for nothing or at a heavy cost in the end. Instead of looking back to destroy or run from what you hate, for example your past or your regrets (in the case of Luke and Kylo) or in fighting your enemy (Poe), you live with it, and move on to protect what you have left - the future.
Idk, the more I think about it, the more I like it.
By the way in reference to the crystal foxes, I thought they were not very convincing CGI. On watching the second time today I was thinking how to cut them out completely, unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible.
Apparently they were animatronics that were physically there, according to a John Boyega interview. So at least some of them weren’t CGI.
EDIT: not the interview I was referencing but there is a video about it
http://www.starwars.com/video/the-evolution-of-the-crystal-fox-star-wars-the-last-jedi
I think that scene would have benefited from more subtlety. Instead of a long shot of Leia flying through space back to the ship, maybe keep on close ups of her hand or her face, with the space particles visibly moving around her to indicate she was somehow moving through the debris. Poe and co’s reactions to it can stay.
But I don’t think we needed to see her Skywalking so overtly.
I’m cool with the concept too though. It’s kinda rad.
If anything, I admire the amount of balls this movie had.
There’s no way the decisions made for this movie happened with everyone involved being unaware as to how pissed off and confused its own devout fanbase would be. Especially since it’s apparently been finished for a while. I know people are like “you shouldn’t have to analyze something to like something” but I think the unexpected (to say the least) choices in the story are meant to draw your attention to why they’re being done in the first place. And from that thematic perspective, I think the movie just works exceptionally well.
I can’t say I agree with every plot choice made here, and that I wasn’t disappointed by certain things, but I definitely think it came together in a much more poignant way than I was expecting. It really doesn’t feel like a Star Wars movie tbh. But I’m feeling more positive about that than negative.
Wow, I’m really sorry guys, I’m just so slammed with school and girls that I forget about this a lot, or it’s just too much to deal with 100%. Especially when I don’t stand completely by the cut that is available, and I don’t have time to render a newer version. xP
I’ll try to respond to feedback and link requests, but I’m just one college kid, and I underestimated how interested people would be in this edit. I mean. It’s a lot. All in all, I’m glad you guys actually really like it, but I’m going to need to carve out some time at Thanksgiving to put a bow on it, and try to submit/get on .info.
On doing TPM and AotC, I have ideas, but I’m not sure if they would be drastically different from other edits of said films. I’m leaning towards RotS!TNCC being universal enough to fit with the original theatrical cuts…? But we’ll see.
There is no underwear in space…
Skimming through this, I’m gonna watch the whole thing soon.
There are a few times where the audio… I guess the best way to describe is that it clips. They’re all around cuts, so my guess is that you just cut the video and left it like that. You should have the audio on each side of the cut fade into one another, it solves that problem.
Yeah, I faded most of the audio cuts, but there are a few where it’s the beginning of a new project file (I have to work in parts) and I wasn’t forward thinking enough to maybe start the file a little behind where I would want it to start in editing. That’s an easy fix and also fanediting 101.
There are also parts where crossfading the audio didn’t work though because there was a line or something just behind it, and it would have ran over. And it was noticeable on every channel. I might have just said “fuck it” for the night or week I was editing those specific spots and didn’t catch it when I came back and had forgotten about it. I should make notes.
Like other people have said, some added dialogue doesn’t fit right. I think it’s more that they’re running over existing dialogue, partially. Some lines don’t have this problem but still feel out of place, but idk why for them.
I agree with this. Any that stick out especially bad, though? And which ones work best?
Overall, although I definitely have some nitpicks and things I’d do differently, I really like what you’ve done here. Anakin’s character comes across much more in keeping with The Clone Wars and there are some pretty original ideas. I’d say the new lines in spots work well more often than not. I did notice one pretty major technical glitch. At 1:26:51 there’s a cut and we can see a single frame of another shot before the cut (It’s a shot of Obi-Wan).
Oh my, thanks for that glitch.
And, I’m all for nitpicks and differences tbh. I am a fan of your own edits, and while I don’t expect to inspire anything in your RotS, I love discussing where our ideas for this movie would diverge.
Ah, alright. Thank you. I’ll see what I can do about that.
Are there any specific examples of an edit being jarring that isn’t related to adding/moving a line of audio? That would be appreciated.
The context for the lines are different now, though. xP
“No miswire jokes” is an exchange Obi Wan and Anakin have as they step off the elevator in my cut.
And “I was about to say that” is said after “Sith lords are our specialty.” Like Anakin was going to make the same joke as Obi-Wan.
Oh man, I hear that about the audio additions. It’s one the things I immediately regretted going a bit overboard on as soon as it finished rendering. I was constantly worried about the volume levels and a lot of the lines are just unnecessary especially when they aren’t blended with the source material too well. I will definitely tone that down when I get to the next version. The added dialogue where they’re coming on and off the elevator should probably go.
I feel I need to keep most in though, b/c I think without the audio additions Anakin came off more meek/mild mannered than I would have liked. It’s a balancing act I have yet to crack - or I did somewhere along the line before going overboard. Dave Filoni and Matt Lanter have always described Anakin as this cross between Luke and Han, and that’s generally what I’m going for.
Anyway if anyone else has gotten around to watching it, I’d really appreciate feedback. Technical or storywise.
Here’s the updated cutlist.
PM for a link to a 720p version, I guess. There are already like 3 audio things I want to go back and fix, but fuck it. 1080p is rendering.
There are actually edits that do what you suggest about leaving Anakin/Vader ambiguous or leaving Padme alive.
For me, this is just what I wanted to do for my edit. I wanted to make something that fits better within the new canon post-Disney, and Padme remained really dead in the new comics, and Leia is Bail’s adoptive daughter throughout Rebels and Rogue One. This edit is just a reinterpretation of the same in-canon events, I’m not trying to “fix” anything in canon aside from characterization and arguably the filmmaking in which it’s presented.
It’s still a decently radical edit, but I’m not changing what happened in broad strokes.
Here’s a rough preview of the ending, since a lot of people are asking about it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx-b_Drhy38rQWlfV3J0X19FMTQ/view?usp=sharing
I have to retime the duration of some shots, and the credits will fade in instead of hard cut, but that’s essentially what it’ll look like. The audiovisual quality is also only shit because I had to render it out quickly.
I do think Anakin should visibly become Vader by the end of the movie. Not a huge fan of leaving that up in the air, tbh. What’s the point of these movies if not to see that happen?
JEDIT: changed link
That would actually be really cool! I’d be down to use it.
I was just going for anything better to me personally than the original, but your work is legitimately good. I just got so tired of this movie that changing its entire look as drastically as I possibly could made it more bearable to edit. But I realize not everyone might not feel the way someone watching it over and over again might. I really like your regrade as a alternative to mine. Because it’s actually good.
Thanks, and you’re definitely getting credit if I end up using it. It’s not like this edit is one that needed something like this, but I’m glad it’ll be one that ends up having it.
Anyway, it might be a little bit longer now, but it’s coming.
Holy shit guys, I think I’m pretty ready to finish and finalize! I just need to render it out, make a new cutlist accurate to what it is now, upload it, and I can finally never watch a frame of this movie again!
(jk I will fix any technical issues anyone finds. which there will be. so many)
But this final version is actually very different from what people previewed earlier this year. I’ve made a ton of changes since then that I hope make my RotS more unique than other fan edits. I wasn’t happy with releasing it as it was back in May for a lot of reasons, one of them being because I felt like it wasn’t different enough an edit from Hal’s or others to warrant putting out there. I didn’t feel like every ambition I had for the edit could be realized. And while I still feel like I wasn’t able to really, this is probably the closest I’m going to get with the source material.
Also, I’m not going to lie, a big reason this took so long was because I had to go back and redo everything because I ended up losing the original project files to hard drive failure. But going back to redo everything allowed me to rethink a lot of what I did and do things differently than I did the first time. I ended up having a lot of new ideas in the process.
So this is going to end up on the updated cutlist, but here are the biggest changes (in broad strokes) since the preview cut:
New crawl!!!
Color grading. Alright, well, I decided to go through with the color grading thing. I’m no pro colorist, but I was inspired by emanswfan’s filmized editions of the prequels (which don’t actually exist anywhere yet so I had to do my own thing) to make the film generally look more gritty and grimy, and shot on film, and just less plastic and more visually appealing. It might look worse to you tbh, and if it does, hmu and I’d gladly render out a non-color graded version. The grain and artifacts are definitely a problem up close. But this is my edit, and I like how it looks overall, so you know.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116544
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116546
Even more audio/conversation editing. When it came to Anakin dialogue and scenes, I basically left no stone unturned. There’s new audio clips in every scene with him to either add to or replace his dialogue, as well as a restructuring of most of his conversations. I’ve got him the most sympathetic, somewhat likeable, and mature I’ve personally seen in most edits of this movie. And this is the movie where he kills children, so I’m kind of proud of that.
Additionally, just a lot more casual talk and laughing/chuckles. Makes everyone seem more human. A lot more people interrupting each other or talking over each other instead of taking turns delivering lines. All of the talking/politics scenes just seem to go by a lot faster now. Mostly because they do.
I tried to make the music editing a lot better too. Like, if I inserted a track like Anakin’s Theme or Anakin’s Dream, that it was integrated into the film better, and that you won’t be able hear too many remnants of the old score I replace.
The ending. My old drafts had more or less the original ending, just with the Hal/Russian scream instead of “NOO…!” But as I was going through this again, I felt like I didn’t even want that scene in there at all. Now the movie ends as Vader takes his first breaths, and then cut to black into credits with melancholy Star Wars music (similar to TCW season 5 finale). While this gets rid of R2/3PO getting their memories wiped and Yoda telling Obi Wan about Qui Gon, I feel like it’s more powerful to end the film like this. The whole movie is about Anakin’s turn into Vader, and to see him crying about Padme as Vader undermines his cold bloodedness a lot. And honestly, that scream of anguish/“no” is the only thing that tells us that Anakin hasn’t fully become Darth Vader yet, because we automatically associate the imagery with what the character is like the OT. The “no” subverts our expectation in a way that undermines the character arc. We had to assume that this sad!Vader becomes the Vader we know in the OT somewhere in between III and IV, but the movie’s existence is more valid if he’s just Darth Vader by the end.
Anyway, the 720p version should be finished rendering in like 14 hours, so I’ll get back to you guys some time then.
I actually started editing again today; with a new crawl, some new audio clips to give Anakin more personality, and HD (as opposed to the shitty quality of the previews I made). I’m also weighing my options from suggestions I’ve gotten in the process, and messing with a few more ideas. It should be finished pretty soon!
(just not within the next month, bc life)
^Said no one ever.
God I hope not. But if true also fuck them for still using the who shot first thing.
…We’re not laughing at that yet?
https://twitter.com/starwarsjunk/status/875004810944278530
The film crew’s T-Shirt is pretty lol, but I kind of don’t want the movie to be called “Solo.”