Hey guys, how’s the game going? E-A-G-L-E-’-S or the other team winning?
Well the Eagles currently have 0 points. Make of that what you will.
Ouch. Spirits must be low at Warb’s superbowl party - to which I was not invited. And now I want chips and salsa.
I wasn’t writing them off, I was trying to say the traditional movie critic who had a journalistic background or came out of the movie industry seems a rare breed these days.
There were plenty of critics I couldn’t stand back in the day. There was at least one who seemed to enjoy trashing Star Wars regularly. Probably pulling their hair out now if they’re still around. 😉
OOH! Have ya seen the video of Siskel & Ebert defending ROTJ against some fool? It’s great! 😄
Here it isThanks, I loved seeing that and Siskel says exactly the same thing I just said!
“This is very good of its kind.” He repeats it again and again. “This is very good OF ITS KIND.”
Judge The Last Jedi against its peers. Objectively it is a high quality family film. You can look at the professional critics opinions, aggregated on metacritic and rotten tomatoes. This is very good of its kind. Pirates Of The Caribbean, Transformers, Planet Of The Apes, Justice League. This is not opinion, this is the truth.
Shouldn’t you judge Star Wars vs Star Wars? They’re all Star Wars movies.
No, because if I say to you Collipso ‘what is your fave film of all time?’ and you reply “Empire Strikes Back” - then you are judging this new flick against the highest cinematic benchmark you’ve ever experienced. Nothing should have to attain such an unrealistic stretch target.
But if I say to you, “Collipso, out of the films you saw in 2017, which did you enjoy the most?”… and that film is The Last Jedi then I would say that’s a great success!
I see your point. However, I think we should judge a Star Wars movie against other Star Wars movies. If Star Wars movies have hit a certain mark in the past, I expect the other that follow it to do the same, to hit the same marks and if possible even more. If not, I won’t be impressed. In fact I’ll be a bit disappointed, that’s all.
I still really enjoyed both of my TLJ experiences. I do think that, as a movie, the first act is fairly weak and messy, and that the pace during that session is not very good at all. I also think some of the dialogue and writing decisions didn’t resonate well with me. But it’d still be a 7/10 or 7.5/10 for me, and that’s ok. What I don’t like are some of the directions taken with the characters. And I have my problems with the ST as a whole too.
PS: Star Wars is my favorite Star Wars movie, and my favorite movie of all time is probably The Godfather Part II.
In terms of quality, tone, and visuals, I compare Star Wars movies to each other. While the ST has hit some sour notes in tone (and in all three areas at Canto Bight), the ST has been good overall in those areas. Stopping there, I would declare the movies to be a success.
I’m with you when it comes to storytelling and characterization. It’s less a matter of comparison than judging how well those elements work in the movie as well as the bigger Star Wars story.
I put the OT in their own separate category, with ROTJ being my general favorite. ESB is great but I think the praise often goes overboard. If asked: the OT is my favorite; Groundhog Day is my favorite non-SW movie.
Hey guys, how’s the game going? E-A-G-L-E-’-S or the other team winning?
Yes, and “very good of its kind” may be damning with faint praise but we all know that’s as good as it gets with space fantasy movies.
I didn’t get that memo. I’m less impressed by the great dramas, perhaps, but I think a movie can be evaluated on its own terms, whatever Blockbuster shelf it would have sat on, whatever box office success it had, and whatever a professional critic had to say about it.
Mrebo can you name me 5 family films from 2016-2017 that you consider to be superior to The Last Jedi? That you personally like more?
Boss Baby
Boss Baby
Boss Baby
Boss Baby
Boss Baby😉
Said it better than I could.
This isn’t “Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri” or “Darkest Hour”.
You’re right, it’s better.
Saw neither of those but I wouldn’t be surprised if I agreed with you.
Yes, and “very good of its kind” may be damning with faint praise but we all know that’s as good as it gets with space fantasy movies.
I didn’t get that memo. I’m less impressed by the great dramas, perhaps, but I think a movie can be evaluated on its own terms, whatever Blockbuster shelf it would have sat on, whatever box office success it had, and whatever a professional critic had to say about it.
I wasn’t writing them off, I was trying to say the traditional movie critic who had a journalistic background or came out of the movie industry seems a rare breed these days.
There were plenty of critics I couldn’t stand back in the day. There was at least one who seemed to enjoy trashing Star Wars regularly. Probably pulling their hair out now if they’re still around. 😉
OOH! Have ya seen the video of Siskel & Ebert defending ROTJ against some fool? It’s great! 😄
Here it isThanks, I loved seeing that and Siskel says exactly the same thing I just said!
“This is very good of its kind.” He repeats it again and again. “This is very good OF ITS KIND.”
Judge The Last Jedi against its peers. Objectively it is a high quality family film. You can look at the professional critics opinions, aggregated on metacritic and rotten tomatoes. This is very good of its kind. Pirates Of The Caribbean, Transformers, Planet Of The Apes, Justice League. This is not opinion, this is the truth.
I wasn’t writing them off, I was trying to say the traditional movie critic who had a journalistic background or came out of the movie industry seems a rare breed these days.
There were plenty of critics I couldn’t stand back in the day. There was at least one who seemed to enjoy trashing Star Wars regularly. Probably pulling their hair out now if they’re still around. 😉
There’s actually a lot of them these days, but most people only read their short blurbs on rotten tomatoes.
Oh, and if there are youtube reviewers with journalistic or film industry backgrounds, it’s news to me. I’d actually be interested in hearing about them.
I’m curious why you think a journalism background helps. My SO has a journalism background and has done movie reviews for a newspaper. Really comes down to having a passion, whatever outlet publishes.
Doesn’t have to necessarily be journalism, but having a background in writing is important. Lots of you tubers just ramble about their opinions. That’s not how you structure a coherent and effective review.
I don’t care for ramblers either. Good thing it’s easy to figure that out early. I don’t like the youtubers who constantly swear - though some of those people are saying something worthwhile. I’m all for judging a channel/video on its own merits.
Great thing about YouTube (& the internet in general) is that it provides an alternative outlet for people to be heard and to develop skills. If Dom or Matt don’t even want to consider a critique because it’s on youtube, fine. Not comment worthy, as Dom notes in his comment on the topic.
Yeah. That’s not the only reason I don’t care to watch it, but yeah.
Right. It’s also a view contrary to yours. I think we can agree that’s the worst kind. There are probably many reasons, but I find this whole line of argument silly. Don’t watch, do watch, it’s your eyeballs.
You’re assuming again.
Okay, fine, I don’t even care whose eyeballs you’re using.
I wasn’t writing them off, I was trying to say the traditional movie critic who had a journalistic background or came out of the movie industry seems a rare breed these days.
There were plenty of critics I couldn’t stand back in the day. There was at least one who seemed to enjoy trashing Star Wars regularly. Probably pulling their hair out now if they’re still around. 😉
There’s actually a lot of them these days, but most people only read their short blurbs on rotten tomatoes.
Oh, and if there are youtube reviewers with journalistic or film industry backgrounds, it’s news to me. I’d actually be interested in hearing about them.
I’m curious why you think a journalism background helps. My SO has a journalism background and has done movie reviews for a newspaper. Really comes down to having a passion, whatever outlet publishes.
Great thing about YouTube (& the internet in general) is that it provides an alternative outlet for people to be heard and to develop skills. If Dom or Matt don’t even want to consider a critique because it’s on youtube, fine. Not comment worthy, as Dom notes in his comment on the topic.
Yeah. That’s not the only reason I don’t care to watch it, but yeah.
Right. It’s also a view contrary to yours. I think we can agree that’s the worst kind. There are probably many reasons, but I find this whole line of argument silly. Don’t watch, do watch, it’s your eyeballs.
Great thing about YouTube (& the internet in general) is that it provides an alternative outlet for people to be heard and to develop skills. If Dom or Matt don’t even want to consider a critique because it’s on youtube, fine. Not comment worthy, as Dom notes in his comment on the topic.
Mrebo, it’s a false equivalency.
There are those online who have declared The Last Jedi a box office turkey, and yes it has performed significantly worse than The Force Awakens did.
However - this false equivalency fails to note that The Force Awakens was the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time. The Last Jedi has in fact already earned a staggering $1.3 billion and is one of the top ten most successful movies of all time.
There are those who have declared that The Last Jedi is a bad SW movie, nowhere near as good as Empire Strikes Back.
However - this false equivalency fails to note that Empire Strikes Back was recently voted the best movie of all time by Empire magazine. Naturally, comparing any movie to the best movie of all time is always going to result in it appearing second rate.
Compare like for like. Compare The Last Jedi (2017) to the other films released for family audiences in 2017. That’s fair, that’s sensible, that’s equivalent. It doesn’t ‘skew’ the results to create a false narrative. It gives a genuine picture of the quality when measured against its peers (which are exactly the like of Pirates Of The Carribean, Justice League, and Transformers The Last Knight).
This is one of the reasons why we still need professional critics. People who can be trusted, unlike youtubers, to have seen a lot of films and possess an understanding of where the benchmark line is set.
Oy.
Collipso are you the guy who has refused to watch The Last Jedi or is that ray_afraid? I thought I read somewhere back in the thread that one of you guys hasn’t even watched the film?
I’m actually far from mad - I really enjoyed the film! I don’t much like reading whining though. Maybe it’s from being British…
Between General Hux and the UK Parliament, I’m doubt it. But there are enough UK members of this forum to convince me that movie criticism is alive and well in Britain.
Mark’s Down On Your Syntax said:
I tried watching a feature length hardcore porn once; I got bored within ten minutes.
Scrambled adult cable channels were pretty hard on the eyes back in the 80’s. 😉
FILTH! I’d like to lodge an official complaint.
Huh. Pavlovian.
https://youtu.be/9eJXB0FQPD0 - good analysis on why Snoke in the ST doesn’t work like Palpatine worked in the OT.
Just what we all need, another no-name youtuber giving his reasons why nu star wars sux.
In all honesty the constant comparing is what’s killing any chance of enjoyment for these people. For goodness sake judge the new movies on their own merits without the constant, endless comparisons to a trilogy of films made 40 years ago.
If you want to compare The Last Jedi to other movies then judge it against its 2017 contemporaries… comparable films made with a high budget and targeted at family audiences; such classics as ‘Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales’, ‘Kong: Skull Island’, and ‘Justice League’. The bar is set so low and thank goodness that we are still getting films at the high quality level of The Last Jedi - stop whining, get some perspective, and appreciate how rare that is in the family film category.
Who cares if it’s a “no-name youtuber,” an article, a podcast or whatever. You don’t have to click but it can provide insight. The video was a response to those who compare TLJ to the OT; the youtuber explained it is a false comparison. However, I’m not quite sure what your objection is to comparing TLJ to the OT, since you seem focused on quality. Are you saying that TLJ cannot compare favorably in terms of quality to movies made 40 years ago? Must we really compare TLJ to some of the worst recent movies in order to argue it is good? The ultimate point of the youtube video was about storytelling and character development.
I think his point was that YouTube is full of people with opinions and it is rarely worth watching. There are a few gems, but there are a lot of duds and on this topic it is a pretty repetative line that TLJ is bad for this or that reason. After so many they get old, even if they are saying something slightly different.
The videos I find exceptionally annoying tend to be from the bigger name youtubers. The video Collipso links is quality (especially compared to Justice League!). As for repetitiveness of making a point or trying to make it better: no doubt. But then you have somebody who liked the movie saying things like “you just hated it because you wanted the same old thing,” completely ignoring what was just said. Or in Matt.F’s case, that whatever point might be made about Snoke, TLJ is good because it’s better than certain bad recent movies in the “family film category.”
The video is perfectly responsive to Creox’s argument. And so we go round and round.
https://youtu.be/9eJXB0FQPD0 - good analysis on why Snoke in the ST doesn’t work like Palpatine worked in the OT.
Just what we all need, another no-name youtuber giving his reasons why nu star wars sux.
In all honesty the constant comparing is what’s killing any chance of enjoyment for these people. For goodness sake judge the new movies on their own merits without the constant, endless comparisons to a trilogy of films made 40 years ago.
If you want to compare The Last Jedi to other movies then judge it against its 2017 contemporaries… comparable films made with a high budget and targeted at family audiences; such classics as ‘Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales’, ‘Kong: Skull Island’, and ‘Justice League’. The bar is set so low and thank goodness that we are still getting films at the high quality level of The Last Jedi - stop whining, get some perspective, and appreciate how rare that is in the family film category.
Who cares if it’s a “no-name youtuber,” an article, a podcast or whatever. You don’t have to click but it can provide insight. The video was a response to those who compare TLJ to the OT; the youtuber explained it is a false comparison. However, I’m not quite sure what your objection is to comparing TLJ to the OT, since you seem focused on quality. Are you saying that TLJ cannot compare favorably in terms of quality to movies made 40 years ago? Must we really compare TLJ to some of the worst recent movies in order to argue it is good? The ultimate point of the youtube video was about storytelling and character development.
I think I figured out a retcon to make sense of TESB and TFA. In universe when they refer to a system, they do not mean star system, but a group of worlds or moons as a political body. Otherwise the Falcon in TESB would have spent months or years traveling from Hoth to Bespin. but if Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin are all in one solar system but comprise 3 political bodies, then the Falcon can traverse that distance in days. The same with the people of Takodana seeing the blast that destroys the Hosnian system (which is portrayed as a planet with several moons). I still think Takodana should be further away than that and them seeing was a silly plot point.
How this quite relates to TFA, I’m not sure, but the discussion that was going on made me think about it.
Sounds plausible.
Goes to show that trying to fit Star Wars into a scifi box doesn’t work too well though. Travel times were one area where they really played fast and loose in the OT. After reading your post I had to google and there are similar thoughts to yours. The official explanation was too convoluted: a (slow) backup hyperdrive.
As the stories build on each other, consistency is developed and audience expectations go up. I wonder if as a function of that and audiences being more jaded from decades of movie wizardry, that some of these things become more problematic than they were 1977-1983. I think that is an issue when it comes to TLJ, where new things suddenly seem implausible, inconsistent or plotholey - even when they demonstrably are not.
The slowness of the bombers bugged me, feeling like there was a game mechanic to make them really slow to compensate for their offensive power, because otherwise they would be OP. No great thing and certainly not a reason to hate the movie, but it was there.
Sometimes I’ll forget about the age gap between me and a lot of other members on this site, but then someone will say something lame or post an old meme or something and I realise I’m basically hanging out with a bunch of thirty to forty year olds. No disrespect.
Hey, just because today’s my birthday doesn’t mean I’m old, I’m only…
Oh no. I’m 29 now. I’m only one year away from getting old.
Send help.
Hope it was a happy Groundhog Day! Lucky you.
Still makes me sad. If Disney had gone through with it, many people never would have forgiven them.
spoilers
Subverted expectations! There is no spoiler!
Warb is spot on.
I think he has earned two free sighs for this 😉
And one on me. Well done, Warb.
?
I thought the thread might actually be a discussion, but it’s mostly people getting mad and repeating meme talking points. And its also quite one-sided–it’s the side I agree with so that’s nice for me but not much of a discussion lol.
You’ve obviously not read the entire thread yet.
I’d like to know what expectations you have.
I desparately hoped there would be:
-no namecalling
-no projecting
-no generalizations
But I expected to find all of this, and I did. So I won’t be participating in this thread. Hate and vitriol gives me negative energy.Most political discourse isn’t discourse at all, it’s kabuki theatre. For example, getting mad at what some California state legislature said is not relevant to politics at all (the science of passing policy). It’s just theatre.
There is often wisdom in not saying something with no real purpose. cough cough Actually, stay, you will fit in well 😉
I agree about hate and vitriol being draining. One purpose of the thread is simply to vent. Another is to bring issues to others’ attention. And in between there are some interesting discussions/“socializing”. I try to keep it light and frothy much as I can. I’m here at the OT for the Star Wars primarily. You can always post in the potato thread. That’s a good one. I adore potatoes in a way that some may find unnatural. The self-control I exercise by staying out of there is tremendous.
Haha!
And sorry if anyone took my post as being too angry at people, I was probably dumb to expect anything less for a politics thread.
All are welcome to ignore my idiotic and nonsensical posts. Though if you like posters who end up saying nothing at all, please read every word of each of my posts. Study my ways, and let me train you.
I feel like I’ve learned so much already. And your initiation is almost complete.
I mean, did you really expect high quality political discourse in the off topic section of a Star Wars forum?
+π
?
I thought the thread might actually be a discussion, but it’s mostly people getting mad and repeating meme talking points. And its also quite one-sided–it’s the side I agree with so that’s nice for me but not much of a discussion lol.
You’ve obviously not read the entire thread yet.
I’d like to know what expectations you have.
I desparately hoped there would be:
-no namecalling
-no projecting
-no generalizations
But I expected to find all of this, and I did. So I won’t be participating in this thread. Hate and vitriol gives me negative energy.Most political discourse isn’t discourse at all, it’s kabuki theatre. For example, getting mad at what some California state legislature said is not relevant to politics at all (the science of passing policy). It’s just theatre.
There is often wisdom in not saying something with no real purpose. cough cough Actually, stay, you will fit in well 😉
I agree about hate and vitriol being draining. One purpose of the thread is simply to vent. Another is to bring issues to others’ attention. And in between there are some interesting discussions/“socializing”. I try to keep it light and frothy much as I can. I’m here at the OT for the Star Wars primarily. You can always post in the potato thread. That’s a good one. I adore potatoes in a way that some may find unnatural. The self-control I exercise by staying out of there is tremendous.
