Mrebo

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

TV’s Frink said:

what’s the status of the Old Man?

he got a sleep apnea mask.

Do we need a modern nursery rhyme/fairy tale thread?

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

Warbler said:

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that abortion is not a huge and controversial issue, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

Ok, I am going to re-word this to make crystal clear what I meant here.

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that 1 + 1 does not equal 2, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

That’s a horrible example. It’s probably the worst and most inaccurate analogy you could possibly have chosen. The right claims that illegal immigration is a huge threat to the nation. I, and others, have said that that threat is largely manufactured and isn’t a huge “problem” as in it isn’t a huge danger to this country. You, for some reason, refuse to drop this idea that we’re somehow saying that illegal immigration isn’t controversial, which no one said. Then you don’t even articulate why you think it’s so irrational for us not to find illegal immigration to be a horrifying threat to the American way of life. Yeah, that situation is nothing like someone claiming that 1 + 1 doesn’t equal 2.

Mrebo said:

See Jay, just stop criticizing liberals and you’ll be okay 😉

Oh my God. Can you two people really not figure out that it’s ridiculous and unreasonable to just lump all liberals in with the stupid people of the left? I’m sure Jay would have a big problem, and probably attribute the behavior to ‘modern liberals’, if I said, “The problem with modern conservatives is that they keep having Nazi rallies and running people over that try to counter-protest them.” Something tells me that Jay wouldn’t think that this was intelligent commentary.

Your “oh my God” made me laugh. What Jay said was he has come to expect an inability to weigh nuance from modern liberals. If you think that’s unfair, fine. But the complaint instead was that he said something bad about liberals (that he was using “liberal” as an epithet). Imagine instead of your Nazi analogy, you said what Jay said, but about “modern conservatives” (talk about an oxymoron, amirite?).

If I complained that you were using “conservative” as an epithet by saying you expect an inability to weigh nuance…I think that clearly misses the point.

What? That’s not all he’s blamed on “the left” and “Democrats”. He’s attributing purity tests, language policing, mass hypocrisy, etc. etc. on “the left”. The wording changes sometimes, but it’s usually “the left,” “modern liberals,” “liberals,” and language like that. Perhaps a less extreme example from me would be, “The problem with modern conservatives is that they refuse to disavow neo-Nazis,” or “The problem with modern conservatives is that they disregard the Constitution,” or “The problem with modern conservatives is that they condone police murder,” or “The problem with modern conservatives is that they vote for idiotic reality TV stars,” or “The problem with modern conservatives is that they condone voter suppression.” It’s dishonest and unfair.

I wonder if the other liberal members in this thread who take issue with Jay’s comments also think your hypothetical criticisms of conservatives are dishonest and unfair.

The reason I gave you an “oh my God,” is because you can’t, or refuse to, wrap your mind around the fact that no one (literally no one in this thread) has said that you can’t criticize liberals.

Go back and note my emote.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

Warbler said:

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that abortion is not a huge and controversial issue, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

Ok, I am going to re-word this to make crystal clear what I meant here.

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that 1 + 1 does not equal 2, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

That’s a horrible example. It’s probably the worst and most inaccurate analogy you could possibly have chosen. The right claims that illegal immigration is a huge threat to the nation. I, and others, have said that that threat is largely manufactured and isn’t a huge “problem” as in it isn’t a huge danger to this country. You, for some reason, refuse to drop this idea that we’re somehow saying that illegal immigration isn’t controversial, which no one said. Then you don’t even articulate why you think it’s so irrational for us not to find illegal immigration to be a horrifying threat to the American way of life. Yeah, that situation is nothing like someone claiming that 1 + 1 doesn’t equal 2.

Mrebo said:

See Jay, just stop criticizing liberals and you’ll be okay 😉

Oh my God. Can you two people really not figure out that it’s ridiculous and unreasonable to just lump all liberals in with the stupid people of the left? I’m sure Jay would have a big problem, and probably attribute the behavior to ‘modern liberals’, if I said, “The problem with modern conservatives is that they keep having Nazi rallies and running people over that try to counter-protest them.” Something tells me that Jay wouldn’t think that this was intelligent commentary.

Your “oh my God” made me laugh. What Jay said was he has come to expect an inability to weigh nuance from modern liberals. If you think that’s unfair, fine. But the complaint instead was that he said something bad about liberals (that he was using “liberal” as an epithet). Imagine instead of your Nazi analogy, you said what Jay said, but about “modern conservatives” (talk about an oxymoron, amirite?).

If I complained that you were using “conservative” as an epithet by saying you expect an inability to weigh nuance…I think that clearly misses the point.

Sure, that kind of statement, no matter how true, can derail discussion. But Jay is clearly speaking as a frustrated liberal himself.

If I complained, as I have previously in this thread, about conservatives I don’t think that crosses any line either.

The real objection is that Jay sees many problems in modern liberalism that hurts causes he cares about.

See Jay, just stop criticizing liberals and you’ll be okay 😉

Handman said:

“Sometimes you make me feel like I’m just a nuisance.”
“That was not the intent [insert random facts].”

Possibly one of the worst responses I’ve ever received? No, “You are not a nuisance”, or a simple “I value your friendship”. I should stop caring.

To be brutally honest, when people come across as seeking reassurance or otherwise sounding like a victim, that can be extraordinarily annoying. If they perceive you as a nuisance, asking them about it can’t yield anything good. And if they don’t, then there’s no reason to ask.

Hope you find people that naturally show you the friendship you desire.

Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that abortion is not a huge and controversial issue, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

I’m not saying it isn’t a controversial issue. It clearly is. I’m saying that I’d like to hear some of the reasons people think having much fewer restrictions on it is a bad thing, because I’ve yet to hear an argument that convinces me we need to be cracking down the way so many seem to think we do.

Note that everything I just said applies equally to my views on abortion, since you brought that up.

Basically, it’s a controversial issue because people think it’s a problem. I’m not convinced it’s a problem at all, and anytime someone here has been asked why they think it is, the answer seems to be “it just is” with no reasoning given.

I haven’t seen those questions/exchanges.

As I said, I start from the premise that immigration law is good and necessary. Illegal immigration is a threat to our security because we don’t know who is coming in, the overall impact on our economy is arguable but there is some negative impact, illegal immigration results in a permanent second-class status for millions of people, crimes go unreported out of fear, gangs like MS13 profit from it, it is unfair to those who follow the law to become citizens, among other reasons.

then change the fucking law. as shown in the infographic above shared by flametitan, it’s a pain in the ass to even be eligible to apply for US citizenship. do you think families trying to run for their lives give a shit or have the resources to try to do that? or have any of the necessary qualifications? no they don’t. so because they have no previous ties to the US, they deserve to suffer? the system is not fair at all.

honestly just change the system, and stop being so close minded. this is xenophobia at its best. like already stated in the thread, the whole concept of borders is absolute bullshit - especially given to the US (given its history). not to mention that to prevent someone from having a better shot at life or trying to pursue happiness simply because they were born in another place goes directly against the declaration of independence, word for word.

perhaps if there was a law change and a better structure to deal with immigrants that can’t go through all the bureaucracy that’s now in place (just something to help them settle or something like that) then illegal immigration would be no problem at all because it then would be legal immigration and the immigrants would (if the policy/idea i’m proposing here worked) be helping society and the economy prosper.

 

the US is the richest and most prosperous country in the world, or at least in the west, and that comes with consequences. you may choose to act nobly and basically try to help those in need (but NOT like the military theoretically did in the middle east) or you can choose to close the door to anyone in need and to try to prosper alone, gates and borders closed.

The one thing I agree with you on is: change the law.

The open borders stuff is nonsense but I think a sensible solution could be found to provide for increased immigration.

Problems with crime rate numbers is they don’t habitually account for citizenship and crimes can go unreported for fear of legal repercussions.

Economic effect involves numerous competing variables that are extremely difficult to account for. Also, a person may reasonably find fault on the basis of negative impact in one area, notwithstanding the overall impact.

No doubt we can both compile facts and links to support one argument or the other, but we can’t pretend there is a pat answer.

Cat, I doubt your asserted stats and I don’t think there’s a “crisis” but think there is an immigration problem.

flametitan said:

There’s a significant problem with illegal immigration: It’s actually pretty hard to legally immigrate, if this infographic is still up to date.

Now, barring that part, The process of dealing with illegal immigration should not be built on separating children from families, and even deportation might be a little strong when it comes to what these families are trying to escape from. Likely, illegal immigrants should be given due process for y’know, being able to legally become American citizens.

Indeed, this all comes down to how we want to handle the problem (or “challenge” if that helps). The trouble is devising a system that works and is fair and stable.

Due process is a reason we detain people so long. The reasons we ultimately deport are another (and crucial) matter.

It’s raining.

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

chyron, can you please edit the thread title?

Done.

I love the italics.

I don’t mind the separate categories so much, except on my telephone.

Don’t be cold coffee.

You may take my money but you’ll never take my coffee.

I hope separate logins for each category is a planned feature. 🤥

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

While I agree, I don’t think this is a democracy.

thunderous applesauce

Now that’s WIR too 🤔

chyron, can you please edit the thread title?

Can someone tell me how multiple OT categories is more of a problem than illegal immigration? (Now this thread can go in the “Culture” category, right?)

The Supreme Court (Roberts and the “liberals,” if I’m permitted to use that term) held today that government needs a warrant to obtain your cellphone location records. Great decision.

TV’s Frink said:

While I agree, I don’t think this is a democracy.

thunderous applause

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

Tell me, if someone were to say to you that abortion is not a huge and controversial issue, would you waste time trying to convince the guy that he was wrong?

I’m not saying it isn’t a controversial issue. It clearly is. I’m saying that I’d like to hear some of the reasons people think having much fewer restrictions on it is a bad thing, because I’ve yet to hear an argument that convinces me we need to be cracking down the way so many seem to think we do.

Note that everything I just said applies equally to my views on abortion, since you brought that up.

Basically, it’s a controversial issue because people think it’s a problem. I’m not convinced it’s a problem at all, and anytime someone here has been asked why they think it is, the answer seems to be “it just is” with no reasoning given.

I haven’t seen those questions/exchanges.

As I said, I start from the premise that immigration law is good and necessary. Illegal immigration is a threat to our security because we don’t know who is coming in, the overall impact on our economy is arguable but there is some negative impact, illegal immigration results in a permanent second-class status for millions of people, crimes go unreported out of fear, gangs like MS13 profit from it, it is unfair to those who follow the law to become citizens, among other reasons.

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Trump is trying to solve the illegal immigration issue.

By building a wall costing zillions and bsing about how he’s going to get Mexico to pay for it?

Apparently that is part of his chosen approach.

Do you agree with me that the idea is totally insane?

1. It would cost waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too much.
2. It would take years to get all the property needed(no doubt they would need to acquire a whole lot of what is currently private property.
3. It would take years and years before the thing is finally finished and during that time we would still have an immigration problem.
4. It would take a huge amount money to pay for all the man power to guard the way and make sure people didn’t try to climb over it.
5. What is to stop people from tunneling under it?
6. There is no way in hell Mexico is going to pay for it.
7. This is America, not Berlin.

Am I wrong in any of this?

Agree very costly and lots of practical issues with it, as you list. If built, despite those issues, I can imagine it would have a major impact on illegal immigration but I don’t know. It’s not a plan I think is wise given the cost, practical issues, and uncertainty of success.

Trident said:

Just for the sake of having this clear?

What do you guys think are the pros and cons of loose immigration? I mean what’s the main thing we’re fixing/wrecking with this?

What does that have to do with our personal qualities, partisan leanings and whether we think Trump is the devil?

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

It seems shortsighted to dwell so much on whether families are kept together

Tell that to the toddler crying for its mommy.

My Spanish probably isn’t up to the job but it’s no easier to explain to a toddler why she was carried through the desert or why she can’t stay.

um… when did you last explain anything to a toddler?

nothing, nothing compares to the anguish a toddler feels when their mom is not with them. and i am just talking about a 1 hour trip to the grocery store. if a toddler had to leave home, sure that is sad, but if they are with their mom/dad? not anguish.

Whenever a person commits an offense resulting in separation from children that is very hard for the children. Typically the parents should have to answer for that.

did you know that the majority of these separations being complained about, are from those attempting to seek asylum? yeah, lets punish them for fleeing a shitty situation. get educated. to say what jay says, do some research it isn’t my job to do it for you.

Asylum isn’t a magic word that let’s people stay. Generally the people are coming here because their own countries are lousy. Doesn’t mean they have a right to enter.

Jay Harold Christ mrebo… of course it isn’t magic.

but locking up parents, and shipping off toddlers, when the parents came to SEEK ASSYLUM is fucking nuts, and this is why people are making noise about this (Not because they hate Trump, Jay). this is why people are starting to say that the USA might be committing human rights violations.

I’ve yet to hear what the solution is.

I don’t get why you can’t just bring yourself to admit that this is wrong. Why must there be a cut-and-dry obvious solution in order to cease doing something really horrible? Also, you should be glad that people want to immigrate to the US. Once people stop wanting to move here, that’s a sign that the United States is a shithole just like everywhere else.

Not a matter of me needing to adopt the moral preening that is so popular and prevalent. Day-in/day-out moral preening takes the place of reasoned debate and finding solutions.

You don’t every try to have reasoned debate or find solutions. I’ve never once encountered you making a post as part of any kind of debate.

Ok then. I said I think we need to increase legal immigration. I said it’s not nice to separate families. You always seem to understand and reply to my posts without any problem but then complain to not understand any of it. Don’t know what to make of that anymore.

Granted I don’t make post after post about why Trump is so mean.

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

The decision to prosecute all who enter illegally is a hard choice. I know it’s easy to think of Trump as a combover twirling villain who enjoys inflicting hardship but illegal immigration has been rampant and unless we are going to do nothing about it, hardships will continue.

This isn’t true. Illegal immigration isn’t a problem now and it hasn’t been in recent memory, if ever.

You think illegal immigration doesn’t exist or you’re not aware of why it’s problematic?

Yeah, that’s obviously what I said. (sarcasm). It isn’t the problem that right-wingers claim it to be and it never was. It’s not destroying the country. It’s not really hurting many people. We were already deporting a ton of illegal immigrants under Obama. Deporting illegals is a bipartisan cause in this country. The Republican notion of illegal immigrants coming in by the millions and voting illegally and taking jobs from citizens is an exaggerated myth.

I asked questions. You said illegal immigration has never been a problem. Now you’re saying it’s not a certain kind of problem. It’s clear to me you don’t know the various ways it is problematic. Some problems are greatly exaggerated.

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

It seems shortsighted to dwell so much on whether families are kept together

Tell that to the toddler crying for its mommy.

My Spanish probably isn’t up to the job but it’s no easier to explain to a toddler why she was carried through the desert or why she can’t stay.

um… when did you last explain anything to a toddler?

nothing, nothing compares to the anguish a toddler feels when their mom is not with them. and i am just talking about a 1 hour trip to the grocery store. if a toddler had to leave home, sure that is sad, but if they are with their mom/dad? not anguish.

Whenever a person commits an offense resulting in separation from children that is very hard for the children. Typically the parents should have to answer for that.

did you know that the majority of these separations being complained about, are from those attempting to seek asylum? yeah, lets punish them for fleeing a shitty situation. get educated. to say what jay says, do some research it isn’t my job to do it for you.

Asylum isn’t a magic word that let’s people stay. Generally the people are coming here because their own countries are lousy. Doesn’t mean they have a right to enter.

Jay Harold Christ mrebo… of course it isn’t magic.

but locking up parents, and shipping off toddlers, when the parents came to SEEK ASSYLUM is fucking nuts, and this is why people are making noise about this (Not because they hate Trump, Jay). this is why people are starting to say that the USA might be committing human rights violations.

I’ve yet to hear what the solution is.

I don’t get why you can’t just bring yourself to admit that this is wrong. Why must there be a cut-and-dry obvious solution in order to cease doing something really horrible? Also, you should be glad that people want to immigrate to the US. Once people stop wanting to move here, that’s a sign that the United States is a shithole just like everywhere else.

Not a matter of me needing to adopt the moral preening that is so popular and prevalent. Day-in/day-out moral preening takes the place of reasoned debate and finding solutions.

It’s not nice to separate children from parents. It appears to be the necessary result of enforcing the laws currently on the books. Why do so many dodge addressing the problem of illegal immigration and the laws as they currently exist?

As I wrote earlier there are many hardships inflicted that don’t generate the kind of headlines that currently have many so worked up.

I think we should greatly increase legal immigration. If that means building a wall, fine. I’d like to see real opportunities given to the children and their parents, not emotionality over a temporary separation before being returned to their countries where most of us will never think about them again.