MrInsaneA

Who's Anakin? (:D))

Seriously though, I like this idea. Very interesting.  

DominicCobb said:

MrInsaneA said:

DominicCobb said:

I auctually think that the main reason AOTC sucks is because it has the worst pacing of all of them.

AOTC sucks because it has a terrible mystery plot, and a terrible romantic plot. The pacing itself however, is easily worked around (Taking out the Yoda/Younglings scene, and the Dex's Diner scene is a good example as to how) TPM however, always seems to have terrible pacing no matter how it's edited. 

Ah, I see what you mean. I thought we were just talking about the original films. In terms of edits, yes, I have noticed that TPM's pacing is unfixable while AOTC's isn't.

L8Wrtr's edit is basically a blueprint for perfect pacing as far as AOTC goes.

DominicCobb said:

I auctually think that the main reason AOTC sucks is because it has the worst pacing of all of them.

AOTC sucks because it has a terrible mystery plot, and a terrible romantic plot. The pacing itself however, is easily worked around (Taking out the Yoda/Younglings scene, and the Dex's Diner scene is a good example as to how) TPM however, always seems to have terrible pacing no matter how it's edited. 

darth_ender said:

When fighting, it's wisest to stand defensively, and then make a quick offensive strike where your opponent is vulnerable.  They leave their whole front side open with their blades in a position where it would in reality take too long to safely parry an attack.

TPM does have the worst pacing, but it still somehow does carry a closer to OT feel than the other two.  That frustrates me.  I'd love to see someone pull off the all-amazing-awe-inspiring-Antimatter trick of actually erasing Jar Jar from the picture.  That would begin to work some wonders.  Some dubbing would go a long way too.

Yeah, but they're Jedi. If they're quick enough to block laser blasts, then I think they'd be quick enough to defend themselves in any position during a fight. Not to say you don't have a valid point, but to me, it just doesn't seem like a big deal.

Jar-Jar's actually an easily fixed problem once you dub him with an alien language, or another voice, or something of the like.

darth_ender said:

Maybe if it were a one-time stance for coolness sake, but they two it at least three times I think.  Really, think about how dangerous standing like that would be, and how unlikely it is that they would both adopt this sort of stance after years of training.  It's more like two fighters knowing they look cool on camera and not really fighting.

To that duel's credit, I personally like the lighting during that scene where the blades light their faces and we can't see the actual moves so much.  I find that worthwhile and OT reminiscent.  Still, I just imagine if Dooku were fighting more along the lines of a proper fencer...that would be sweet in my mind.

I'm not asking for a total overhaul, but like you said, an OT touch up.  I know certain things could never even be changed, but I'm just giving reasons why it's inconsistent with the OT and therefore bugs me a bit.

Pacing is another thing that feels too different from the OT to me.  TPM in particular felt rushed much of the time with not enough dialogue to fill a decent scene, and yet the dialogue present telling us so little (Your Highness, we're going to Tatooine."  "I don't agree." "Trust my judgment." End scene).  I wish we got more character and that scenes didn't feel rushed.  I don't know how this could be achieved, as editing usually involves more cutting than adding, but this thread is sort of like the radical redux threads.

I don't understand why standing like that would be dangerous. I mean, you're already in a sword fight, and all they're doing is getting poised to swing at each other. Because they're y'know....in a sword fight.  And you have to remember, all of these moves are based on actual fighting styles.

Also, TPM is probably the Prequel with the worst pacing of the three IMO.

So Bob....ever plan on re-posting those old vids? 

Also, on the topic of the Dooku vs. Yoda battle, I've seen it edited so that they only fight with the Force and it works pretty well. The scene flows better then if Dooku just takes off after kicking Obi-Wan and Anakin's asses (as I've seen a few edits do.) 

coinilius said:

MrInsaneA said:

coinilius said:

In the Lone Gungan Edition of TPM, Yads uses footage from Star Trek: Insurrection and Terminator Salvation to make the invasion of Naboo a little more dramatic. 

 

What footage, pray tell?

 

Shots of the Baku village at night being shot at while villagers flee (from ST:I) and shots of people being rounded up/herded/transported from T:S.  It really depends on personal preference how well you think the shots are incorporated, but it is a worthy effort. 

I watched the edit in question, and did like the idea that the editor was trying to bring across with the footage. Howevr, I'm planning on doing an HD edit of TPM so the  Star Trek Village People (Sounds like an awesome band name btw) might not be doable for me. 

aalenfae said:

I always liked the stance with Anakin and Dooku facing off like that. It looks a lot like a Samurai face-off, and that's sort of what Jedi are based on. 

For some strange reason, it reminds me of the Bespin duel, when Vader and Luke stare at each other for a moment before they cross blades. There's a kind of eerie "calm before the storm" feel to the stance.

coinilius said:

In the Lone Gungan Edition of TPM, Yads uses footage from Star Trek: Insurrection and Terminator Salvation to make the invasion of Naboo a little more dramatic. 

 

What footage, pray tell?

FrederikOlsen said:

You may find this wonderful score suitable for your list:

1999 Outcast (PC game)

Sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6My91_062cU

This me-likey.

So someone in another thread suggested that we “broaden our horizons” so to speak, and look for footage from other films/television shows to add to any future PT edits. So I decided to create this topic, to gather any ideas on where one could attain such footage.

Any suggestions?

darth_ender said:

MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

Off the top of my head, just from TPM, charging toward Qui-Gon and Maul through the shielded corridor, repeatedly spinning his saber to the side; mimicking Maul's efficient disengagement by doing his own balletic pose just after Qui-Gon was stabbed; earlier he and Qui-Gon followed Maul jumping over a bridge, Qui-Gon simply jumps, Kenobi flips.  I've noticed the pointless spinning many times throughout the PT.  In ROTS, his stance when he says, "I don't think so," as he faces Grievous is just silly.  I'm going a lot from memory and what I've read of others more knowledgeable in sword-fighting, but now that they pointed it out, instead of looking cool, it bugs me a bit.  It looks "cool" in the sense that it's fast and carries a sort of arrogance with it that we Americans are so fond of, but in reality it's just wasted energy.

Luke did unnecessary flips also. Dagobah, Bespin, the Emperor's Throne Room...so it honestly doesn't bother me one bit when Obi-Wan or any Jedi for that matter, tries to get a little fancy or "arrogant." Personal preference? Yeah,sure. But it isn't completely contrary to what was established in the OT.

 

On Dagobah Luke was training, on Cloud City he was supposed to be an arrogant aggressor, and still I believe his jumps were largely well-calculated and necessary, not just fun showing off.  I can only think of Luke's jump into that circular control area and then backflip onto the catwalk, which was IMO well designed to disengage from the fight and try reasoning with his old man.

The funny thing is I don't criticize the Jinn/Kenobi/Maul fight because it seems like it had to be that way.  After no new Star Wars movies for 16 years, we expect something along the same lines, and I believe Jinn and Kenobi came off pretty cool in TPM, but when it came to the fighting, they were facing a completely new challenge, one who had trained in a different style, and it took all their skills to face him.  I think the continuous efforts to outdo that fight actually cheapened the effect of the whole trilogy.  It was cool once, but I'd rather have seen Dooku as a champion with the controlled blade instead of other wild swinging.  But as I just stated, he does do that somewhat.  I guess even more would have been to my taste, like a modern day fencer or something like that: quick, controlled, centered.

Ultimately, it is all personal preference, and I like the PT better than 90% on this site.  It's not that I hate the fight scenes but feel they would be improved, and as is this threads intent, better fitting with the OT if they were executed as I suggested.

Ah. Now I see where you're coming from.

I can agree that all fights besides Jinn/Obi/Maul and Ani/Obi deserve at the very least, a little bit of an OT touch up. But I honestly adore the two previously mentioned lightsaber battles, and wouldn't want to change them. To me, it would be like speeding up the ESB fight, or something. It doesn't feel right.

darth_ender said:

MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

I imagine so.  Just shooting out ideas.  And I always hated Obi-Wan spinning in ANH, even as a 6 year-old watching some old dude pointlessly spinning.  It's interesting however that overall his style is conservative and respectable in spite of its slower appearance.  In reality his defensive style is wise.  But in the end probably not too much can be done to make it all the same.  If someone with great CGI skills simply kept Kenobi better planted, that would almost do it all for me.  But to add to it, if we simply saw different, more OT type fighting from Dooku and from the lesser known characters, that would help.  Cutting Palpatine's jumps also would be a good thing, now that I'm thinking of it.  I know the Yoda fights are not terribly popular, but I don't know if it could be fixed in a respectable manner.  Some edits have removed them, but I've not yet watched them to see how it flows.  It seems like it could be lacking without it.  Perhaps some incredible CGI skills could show only the force fighting and add a couple of things.  I dunno.  Oh!  And one final irritation  about the fighting: during the dumb faceoff pose that Dooku and Anakin give each other, why on earth would they stand a foot apart and both hold their lightsabers behind their backs!?

Palp's jumps should definately be cut if only because they look incredibly fake. As for Dooku's fighting style, I always thought he was more of an OT fighter then most, so I guess that's a matter of personal preference.

And Yoda's fights are honestly unfixable IMO. I've tried slowing them down, and editing them so that he never leaves the position he's in (kind of to show that he doesn't need to attack and instead chooses only to defend.) but it just doesn't work. To much of the fight involves him off the ground.

And during which Dooku v. Anakin fight are you referring to when they give the dumb face-off pose? 

I guess I was exaggerating when I said behind the back, but I was going from faulty memory, not flat out lies :)  Well, I admit standing a foot apart was an exaggeration for effect, but stil...Anyway, I just looked on Youtube and grabbed this snapshot.  I'm sure I could have found a better, but still it's a stupid way to face your opponent:

They stand face to face like this a few times, and it's really kind of dumb.

Just watching and I agree, Dooku's style is closer to the OT, so if anyone's should be left largely intact it should be his.  Still, if I remember correctly, in ROTS he gets a little crazier with the flips.  I'll have to watch now before I say too much so I don't put my foot in my mouth, but if I'm right, I would again prefer to cut out some of the flipping.

Palpatine definitely flips around too much.  I prefer the idea of Aalanfae to remove the other Jedi arresting him and just having Mace.  Someone suggested dimming the lights once, I remember, and I thought that was a good idea as well so he could put up a decent fight.

Yeah, I can't imagine much could be reasonably done to fix Yoda without some pricey software, a lot of skills, and plenty of time.

Eh....I mean I guess I could do without the face-to-face but again, it wouldn't kill me if it was left in.

Dooku flips once in ROTS and it's REALLY stupid, and poorly done. Bobgarcia found a suitable way around it though.

ALSO: Mace SHOULD be the only Jedi to arrest Palps, and the fight between the two should be quick and to-the-point. Bobgarcia is the one who suggested dimming the lights, and he actually made a video demonstrating the effect. It was really cool (and disguised the poor CGI work on Palpy's face-pasted-over-the-stunt-double.) 

darth_ender said:

I imagine so.  Just shooting out ideas.  And I always hated Obi-Wan spinning in ANH, even as a 6 year-old watching some old dude pointlessly spinning.  It's interesting however that overall his style is conservative and respectable in spite of its slower appearance.  In reality his defensive style is wise.  But in the end probably not too much can be done to make it all the same.  If someone with great CGI skills simply kept Kenobi better planted, that would almost do it all for me.  But to add to it, if we simply saw different, more OT type fighting from Dooku and from the lesser known characters, that would help.  Cutting Palpatine's jumps also would be a good thing, now that I'm thinking of it.  I know the Yoda fights are not terribly popular, but I don't know if it could be fixed in a respectable manner.  Some edits have removed them, but I've not yet watched them to see how it flows.  It seems like it could be lacking without it.  Perhaps some incredible CGI skills could show only the force fighting and add a couple of things.  I dunno.  Oh!  And one final irritation  about the fighting: during the dumb faceoff pose that Dooku and Anakin give each other, why on earth would they stand a foot apart and both hold their lightsabers behind their backs!?

Palp's jumps should definately be cut if only because they look incredibly fake. As for Dooku's fighting style, I always thought he was more of an OT fighter then most, so I guess that's a matter of personal preference.

And Yoda's fights are honestly unfixable IMO. I've tried slowing them down, and editing them so that he never leaves the position he's in (kind of to show that he doesn't need to attack and instead chooses only to defend.) but it just doesn't work. To much of the fight involves him off the ground.

And during which Dooku v. Anakin fight are you referring to when they give the dumb face-off pose? 

darth_ender said:

Off the top of my head, just from TPM, charging toward Qui-Gon and Maul through the shielded corridor, repeatedly spinning his saber to the side; mimicking Maul's efficient disengagement by doing his own balletic pose just after Qui-Gon was stabbed; earlier he and Qui-Gon followed Maul jumping over a bridge, Qui-Gon simply jumps, Kenobi flips.  I've noticed the pointless spinning many times throughout the PT.  In ROTS, his stance when he says, "I don't think so," as he faces Grievous is just silly.  I'm going a lot from memory and what I've read of others more knowledgeable in sword-fighting, but now that they pointed it out, instead of looking cool, it bugs me a bit.  It looks "cool" in the sense that it's fast and carries a sort of arrogance with it that we Americans are so fond of, but in reality it's just wasted energy.

Luke did unnecessary flips also. Dagobah, Bespin, the Emperor's Throne Room...so it honestly doesn't bother me one bit when Obi-Wan or any Jedi for that matter, tries to get a little fancy or "arrogant." Personal preference? Yeah,sure. But it isn't completely contrary to what was established in the OT.

aalenfae said:

Is any of Bob Garcia's stuff actually online anymore?


http://vimeo.com/31762262
That's my video that Darth_ender was referencing. I'll see if I can get a more up-to-date video next week, if anybody's interested.  

BobGarcia's stuff got pulled by Youtube. I actually talked to him on his thread about putting it back up on Vimeo, and he said he would....and then he didn't. So I dunno.

And just some thoughts on your video.....I'm not really a fan of the Lion King-esque slow mo lightsaber fighting. Though I do like the close-up shots of the sabers clashing.

darth_ender said:

Believe me, I love fast paced fighting, and the PT fights are patterned somewhat after real styles.  I like much of it, though like I said, there is a lot of wasted energy on Obi-Wan's part, not to mention the cheesy fights from less athletic actors like McDiarmid and Lee (age of course).  But it's not consistent with the OT in that the reasoning for the style employed there was that though these were energy blades, they were supposed to be hard to wield instead of massless.  The fighting style for the OT is closer to broadsword fighting, and since that established the style and created a different sort of mood when watching the fights, I wish they stuck closer to it, or perhaps showed numerous fighting styles in the PT.  I like what...crap, he's not on page 3...uh, Alenfae (sp?) has done thus far and look forward to seeing the slightly slower style.

I hear you Mr. Insane, though.  My favorite part of Ep I is the Maul fight and wanted to see more of that as well.  So perhaps the best solution would simply be to show multiple styles.

I can definitely agree with all that was said above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbCITBD9IKE

BobGarcia has done a nearly perfect job of OT-izing the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel IMO. Just thought you'd be interested if you hadn't already seen it.

Akwat Kbrana said:

The "Vader is a cripple and Obi-Wan is an old man" cop-out explanation is defeated by the PT itself: Vader is less a cripple than Grievous, and Obi-Wan in Ep. 4 is probably younger than Count Dooku in Ep. 2. Didn't seem to stop those two from doing twirls, flips, and acrobatics, though.

Eh...point taken. Still, I'd only go to the extent of cutting out Dooku's flips, and slowing down the Griveous vs Obi-Wan fight. Other then that, and the stuff I previously mentioned, I'm totally fine with PT fights.

darth_ender said:

MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

I like it.  My concern is that the message might be confusing considering Anakin is mourning his mother at this moment.  I enjoy the music and the voiceover, but I'm not sure it fits perfectly with the scene itself.  Two thoughts come to mind: continue with this idea, but find ways to incorporate Qui-Gon voiceovers in at least one or two places prior to give the impression that he communicates often with him, or find a different scene to show Anakin regretting his attack on the Tuskens, maybe while confessing to Padme.  I'm not sure if that would work, but it's a thought.  Again, let me emphasize that I do like the music and the Neeson clip (from Batman Begins, yay!), but I simply feel it might work better elsewhere.  (I always worry my critique may be offensive; if you are pleased with how it turned out, don't listen to me of course)

 

Nonono, I asked for your thoughts sir. Be as blunt as you need to be.

I agree that there needs to be prior communication between Qui-Gon and Anikan. And I tried to put Qui-Gon's voiceover during his talk with Padme about killing the Tuskens, but no matter where I put it, it felt out of place to me. 

 Just thinking...a possible time to include some sort of quote could be while Anakin is standing outside meditating after his bad dreams of mama.  Again, I'm not technically savvy, but is it possible to stretch out moments with no dialogue and little movement without making it obvious that the shot was slowed or reversed?  That could give you a little more time both there and while grieving with Padme.

Also, you should raise the volume of Qui-Gon shouting, "Anakin! Nooo!" when Anakin kills the Tusken Raiders.  Until I used the subtitles I was unsure that was even him.

 

Along with these suggestions, and keeping with the spirit of the thread, I am liking Qui-Gon putting his arm around Sebastian/Anakin more and more as I think about it.

Any other thoughts on how to unify these trilogies better, whether specific or generic changes?  What about the lightsaber battles?  I thought GL's explanation of an old cripple vs. an untrained boy as among his lamest.

EDIT: Another potential voiceover could take place when Anakin is waiting outside the Lars home, just before Padme comes and hugs him.  You could even leave Padme out and simply have the voiceover, then cut to him racing away on the speeder bike.

Well...Lucas' statement was less of an explanation, and more of a fact. Luke is untrained, and Vader is a cripple. I don't really see that as being unlikely or a cop out. In my eyes, the OT and PT fights are awesome in different ways, and really don't need to be altered in any way. (The PT fights to be slower, or the OT fights to be faster.)

And I like the idea of Qui-Gon speaking to Anakin outside the Lars homestead, but I think his first talk with Anakin needs to come very early in the film....maybe he's talking to Anakin on the balcony on Coruscant, before Kenobi interrupts....problem is, I don't know what Qui-Gon would be saying. XD Guess it's time to go on the hunt for some Liam Lines....

muddyknees2000 said:

DominicCobb said:

muddyknees2000 said:

Dude, you know theres a story being told during this film right? Its right in the foreground, more or less right in front of all those tiny little lights in the background. If you squint real hard you can just make it out...

I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure that ESBR is essentially ESB with updated visuals. Fixing these inconsistencies is kind of the point.

 Seems some folks missed the post in which I mentioned that I was being flippant.......and as someone working with Ady on ESB:R I'm guessing the details mean a little something to myself as well. It was just a joke people. Deal with it.

There's always a bitter fish...er, bigger fish....yeah.

darth_ender said:

While making the OT duels seem a bit more dynamic?  I don't mind the PT duels as much as many on this site do, but they do get pretty silly at times.  I like how Adywan improved the speed of the Kenobi/Vader fight in Revisited.  I think faster OT and slower PT would help it mesh better.  The most ofensive things to me are Ewan McGregor's pointless spins and poses.  Far too often his choreographer had him waste energy and have cool looking and inefficient stances (this coming from a guy with no fencing skills).

IMO the only things that need to be changed about the PT duels are A.) No Yoda lightsaber fights and B.) Shorten the Anakin and Obi-Wan fight a littttlllle bit more. (the swinging on the tower is ridiculous.) and C.) Make Windu the only one to fight Palps. Other then that, I am more then okay with them. In fact, I'm in the small minority of people on this site who love the swirly-twirly choreographed nature of it all.

darth_ender said:

I like it.  My concern is that the message might be confusing considering Anakin is mourning his mother at this moment.  I enjoy the music and the voiceover, but I'm not sure it fits perfectly with the scene itself.  Two thoughts come to mind: continue with this idea, but find ways to incorporate Qui-Gon voiceovers in at least one or two places prior to give the impression that he communicates often with him, or find a different scene to show Anakin regretting his attack on the Tuskens, maybe while confessing to Padme.  I'm not sure if that would work, but it's a thought.  Again, let me emphasize that I do like the music and the Neeson clip (from Batman Begins, yay!), but I simply feel it might work better elsewhere.  (I always worry my critique may be offensive; if you are pleased with how it turned out, don't listen to me of course)

 

Nonono, I asked for your thoughts sir. Be as blunt as you need to be.

I agree that there needs to be prior communication between Qui-Gon and Anikan. And I tried to put Qui-Gon's voiceover during his talk with Padme about killing the Tuskens, but no matter where I put it, it felt out of place to me. 

darth_ender said:

Well I can agree with more PT voiceover too.  I liked what I saw TheCutter doing (where is that guy?).  I remember him explaining Dagobah as a force magnifier via voiceover.  If we follow the conventional order for the films, I feel it would be beneficial in the OT as well, though.  If we rewrote all the films to follow the revised order, I think it would only be confusing.

Personally, I feel 4-5-6 and then 1-2-3 works best. All the mystery is in the OT and all the answers are in the PT. Just watch them in the order they were released. :P 

So.....you DO like the idea of Qui-Gon being Anakin's guide? Or not?

http://vimeo.com/32545555

Here it is.

I added Anakin's Theme to this scene, and then deepened the pitch to make it match the somber tone of Shmi's funeral. Anakin's response of "I won't fail again." is now directed at Qui-Gon and not Shmi, referring to his killing of the Tuskens.

Thoughts?