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For real though, I think IX will be extremely different from TFA, because JJ’s co-writer on 7 hadn’t even seen the films he was making a sequel to, whereas Terrio does his homework.
You also seem to be looking at AOTC and Dooku through the lens of the entire PT. You can’t do that with TLJ and Snoke yet, since we don’t know how it’s all going to shake out in TROS.
?
Snoke is dead. And Serkis is almost certainly not in the film.
AotC makes plenty of sense and Dooku’s actions are totally understandable.
You can’t be serious. Dooku has no clear motivation or personality. Snoke isn’t a well-developed character, but at least his motivations are clear.
???
Dooku’s personality is “old timey gentleman who is evil”.
Still more than Snoke’s “cackling Palpatine-esque person”.
Dooku’s motivation is the same as Anakin’s, in a way.
“I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.”
“I will be the most powerful Jedi ever.”
“I’ve become more powerful than any Jedi, even you.”
Snoke’s motivation is “Evil”.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.Dooku and Snoke are 100% comparable. And in 5 years you’ll probably be able to say the same thing about Snoke thanks to books and comics and TV shows - which is exactly how we know anything worthwhile about Dooku.
The thing is, that I wasn’t the biggest fan of Dooku either for exactly the same reasons. You introduce a disposable villain in one movie, and dispatch him in the next with little character development, as was the case for Darth Maul. It was a waste of a very talented actor to be honest, and his portrayal of Dooku contrasted starkly with his presence in LOTR at that time. However, I agree with MikeWW, that more context was provided for Dooku than for Snoke, which makes Snoke a more problematic character for me.
I hate to look a gift post in the mouth but I don’t Lee’s performance in SW was worse than his Saruman, if that’s what you’re implying.
I’m not saying Lee’s performance was worse (he was good in pretty much anything). I’m saying he was given far less to work with to the point that the Dooku character was a waste of his potential, a potential that was on full display in LOTR.
I just looked at it as two different sizes of roles. Dooku was more of a Tarkin type role to me.
Smallish but fun and relevant.AOTC is all about Dooku. From the start of the movie it’s “Dooku this” or “Dooku that.” He is the character that has the final confrontation with our heroes, and survives to the next film. He is a far more prominent character than Tarkin, which is one of the reasons why his poor characterization is so harmful to the overall quality of AOTC.
I disagree on two counts. He’s not really the centerpiece of 2 anymore than the commander of the Death Star is for 4,
Okay, so the primary threat in each movie is the Death Star, and the Separatist alliance. So if you look at mere rank, the two are on equal footing. But the key distinction, is that while Tarkin is in charge of the Death Star, he’s not the face of it. Whenever the threat of the Separatists is considered, it always essentially referred to as Dooku’s Separatist movement.
Now there’s also the henchmen to consider. Unlike Vader, Jango Fett is dispatched before the final, climactic showdown. Which means that, while in ANH you have Vader in his TIE about to shoot down Luke, in AOTC it is just Dooku who is fighting Anakin, Obi-wan, and Yoda. So again, Dooku and Tarkin aren’t exactly comparable.
and also, again, his characterization is way more substantial than Snoke, the dead guy responsible for the plot of the entire sequel trilogy.
There’s more information, but that doesn’t mean the characterization is necessarily better. Knowing where a character comes from does not necessarily make them a good character (consider an obvious example on the flip side, the Joker). Snoke plays a fairly straightforward role in the two films he’s in. There are question marks about where he came from and why he’s doing what he’s doing, but ultimately we do know who he is in the sense that we know what his goals are and we know his resolve, so when you factor in how little screen time he has, do we really need to know more about him? He’s incited the plot, sure, but Kylo Ren is the actual central villain of both films.
In AOTC, Dooku is the central villain (not the big bad, who in that film only really gets one scene). While we know about where Dooku came from, there are question marks when it comes to things that are more relevant to his characterization in the narrative of the film. AOTC masks this for most of its runtime by having a central mystery that the plot revolves around, but the problem is that the whole thing ultimately unravels in a way that doesn’t make sense.
I refuse to believe that you think that Snoke was not extremely underwritten.
He’s behind The First Order, Luke’s exile, Ben’s turn, etc.
Also AotC makes plenty of sense and Dooku’s actions are totally understandable.
Read all my posts about Dooku above. You’re not going to drag me into a thing where you ignore MY walls of text in your own.
P.S.
Palpatine is clearly the big bad of the entire PT and AotC never lets us forget this. It is Palpatine, not Dooku, who is orchestrating the plot. so in a way, Dooku is LESS central than Tarkin.
Is there anything you guys are excited about for IX?
The fact that Terrio has maybe read Dark Empire and is stealth rebooting the sequel trilogy.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.Dooku and Snoke are 100% comparable. And in 5 years you’ll probably be able to say the same thing about Snoke thanks to books and comics and TV shows - which is exactly how we know anything worthwhile about Dooku.
The thing is, that I wasn’t the biggest fan of Dooku either for exactly the same reasons. You introduce a disposable villain in one movie, and dispatch him in the next with little character development, as was the case for Darth Maul. It was a waste of a very talented actor to be honest, and his portrayal of Dooku contrasted starkly with his presence in LOTR at that time. However, I agree with MikeWW, that more context was provided for Dooku than for Snoke, which makes Snoke a more problematic character for me.
I hate to look a gift post in the mouth but I don’t Lee’s performance in SW was worse than his Saruman, if that’s what you’re implying.
I’m not saying Lee’s performance was worse (he was good in pretty much anything). I’m saying he was given far less to work with to the point that the Dooku character was a waste of his potential, a potential that was on full display in LOTR.
I just looked at it as two different sizes of roles. Dooku was more of a Tarkin type role to me.
Smallish but fun and relevant.AOTC is all about Dooku. From the start of the movie it’s “Dooku this” or “Dooku that.” He is the character that has the final confrontation with our heroes, and survives to the next film. He is a far more prominent character than Tarkin, which is one of the reasons why his poor characterization is so harmful to the overall quality of AOTC.
I disagree on two counts. He’s not really the centerpiece of 2 anymore than the commander of the Death Star is for 4, and also, again, his characterization is way more substantial than Snoke, the dead guy responsible for the plot of the entire sequel trilogy.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.Dooku and Snoke are 100% comparable. And in 5 years you’ll probably be able to say the same thing about Snoke thanks to books and comics and TV shows - which is exactly how we know anything worthwhile about Dooku.
The thing is, that I wasn’t the biggest fan of Dooku either for exactly the same reasons. You introduce a disposable villain in one movie, and dispatch him in the next with little character development, as was the case for Darth Maul. It was a waste of a very talented actor to be honest, and his portrayal of Dooku contrasted starkly with his presence in LOTR at that time. However, I agree with MikeWW, that more context was provided for Dooku than for Snoke, which makes Snoke a more problematic character for me.
I hate to look a gift post in the mouth but I don’t Lee’s performance in SW was worse than his Saruman, if that’s what you’re implying.
I’m not saying Lee’s performance was worse (he was good in pretty much anything). I’m saying he was given far less to work with to the point that the Dooku character was a waste of his potential, a potential that was on full display in LOTR.
I just looked at it as two different sizes of roles. Dooku was more of a Tarkin type role to me.
Smallish but fun and relevant.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.Dooku and Snoke are 100% comparable. And in 5 years you’ll probably be able to say the same thing about Snoke thanks to books and comics and TV shows - which is exactly how we know anything worthwhile about Dooku.
The thing is, that I wasn’t the biggest fan of Dooku either for exactly the same reasons. You introduce a disposable villain in one movie, and dispatch him in the next with little character development, as was the case for Darth Maul. It was a waste of a very talented actor to be honest, and his portrayal of Dooku contrasted starkly with his presence in LOTR at that time. However, I agree with MikeWW, that more context was provided for Dooku than for Snoke, which makes Snoke a more problematic character for me.
I hate to look a gift post in the mouth but I don’t Lee’s performance in SW was worse than his Saruman, if that’s what you’re implying.
Isn’t that exactly what you’re doing with this odd insistence that Anakin’s ghost MUST speak to Kylo on film at some point…?
I’m saying that it’s illogical to create the character they have, combined with the context of the end of RotJ, and not have that scene.
If the prequels didn’t exist Anakin and Kylo woulda been done chatted by now.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.Dooku and Snoke are 100% comparable. And in 5 years you’ll probably be able to say the same thing about Snoke thanks to books and comics and TV shows - which is exactly how we know anything worthwhile about Dooku.
You didn’t read my posts.
^^^^^
You aren’t really being fair here. You’re sowing doubt by throwing out an idea that has no evidence either way.
What’s unclear with Dooku are his motivations. He reveals Sidious’s plot to Kenobi, but then we learn he’s actually working for Sidious, so why did he reveal the plan? For the majority of AOTC we are lead to believe that he is seeking civil war against the Republic (for independence I guess? Unclear the Separatist motivations), and then we find out he’s enacting out Sidious’s orders. So we are I guess left to believe it’s just galaxy domination/Sith at last getting revenge? Which is fine, but it’s messy and muddled for him.
For Snoke, first of all he’s not the primary villain of either film he’s in, second, his plan is clear from the start - eliminate the Jedi and destroy the Republic.
Exactly! I wasn’t sure if he was trying to turn Obi-Wan or being honest with him in the detention cell scene. If he wasn’t playing at being a double agent of sorts, laying out all the cards about Sidious controlling the senate was a pretty risky move, unless he was pretty certain Obi-Wan would never live to share that intel.
That the Jedi Council never seemed to have actually done anything with that info is beside the point. 😉
See above. He didn’t lay out nearly all the cards (that would be telling them who the Sith lord is), also RotS makes it very clear that the Jedi have an ongoing investigation that of course isn’t getting them anywhere because Palp is so much closer than they think.
What’s unclear with Dooku are his motivations. He reveals Sidious’s plot to Kenobi, but then we learn he’s actually working for Sidious, so why did he reveal the plan? For the majority of AOTC we are lead to believe that he is seeking civil war against the Republic (for independence I guess? Unclear the Separatist motivations), and then we find out he’s enacting out Sidious’s orders. So we are I guess left to believe it’s just galaxy domination/Sith at last getting revenge? Which is fine, but it’s messy and muddled for him.
For Snoke, first of all he’s not the primary villain of either film he’s in, second, his plan is clear from the start - eliminate the Jedi and destroy the Republic.
It’s plain as day though. Dooku, partly like Anakin, was a political idealist who became evil. The seperatist cause is irrelevant because the whole war is a false flag, and Dooku tells Obi Wan SOME of the truth because he’s doing what all Sith do, trying to become the master.
As for Snoke, WHY does he want to do those things? Also he’s not the primary villian by screentime, but he IS the big bad and inciting actor of the problems of TFA and TLJ.
The sequel trilogy being about legacy, it is interesting to have the characters be left to interpret for themselves the actions of those who preceded them.
The problem being that the original trilogy already set up the fact that force ghosts interact with the living when they feel a need to.
Hell even TLJ had Yoda.
Anakin’s ghost appearing in the end of RotJ locks in what you do with a Skywalker descendant who is worshipping Vader.
Also funny that you mention “legacy”, since that comic series DID have both Luke and Anakin’s force ghosts talk to an edgy Skywalker descendant.
If one invests time in an lengthy animated series in which he appears. The character ought to be able to stand alone without benefit of watching TCW.
You keep bringing up the show for no reason. Pretty much everything contextual we learn about him comes from one movie. And it’s more than we get with Snoke.
Plus he’s not even played by Lee in that show and he’s still fun to watch, so there goes that.What did we learn about him in AOTC other than he was Qui-Gon’s master, left the Jedi for some reason, and now henches for Sidious? Even Lucas can’t seem to decide if he’s totally evil at times.
Exactly. We learn his former employer, his current employer, his organization’s plan and and his role in said plan, in his former master and how that relates him to our main characters, and we learn through subtext(?) that he followed Anakin’s potential trajectory of leaving for political reasons and then becoming corrupted by Sidious.
Also Lucas was not wishy washy with Dooku at all. He was a bad dude who wasn’t always bad.
With Snoke we learn that he corrupted Ben Solo, and that he commands the “First Order”, whatever they are.
Unlike Dooku also, Snoke is mostly a walking question mark.
Why was this super powerful dude (as evidenced by Luke hiding) not doing anything during the first six films?
The most we learn about Snoke comes from the new EU. All the stuff about him having a ring from Vader’s castle and being from the unknown regions etc isn’t even in the movies.
And now he’s dead so even an 11th hour exposition dump won’t really help your point since Serkis won’t be playing him again.
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If one invests time in an lengthy animated series in which he appears. The character ought to be able to stand alone without benefit of watching TCW.
You keep bringing up the show for no reason. Pretty much everything contextual we learn about him comes from one movie. And it’s more than we get with Snoke.
Plus he’s not even played by Lee in that show and he’s still fun to watch, so there goes that.
Disregarding the TCW series, we didn’t get much in the prequels, and he was in Episode III for barely a few minutes before being de-handed and de-headed. If Sir Christopher Lee had not been cast, Dooku would be forgettable.
I don’t believe that you believe that Dooku and Snoke are equivelant.
Dooku is a character with a smaller role than Snoke, yet we learn more about him.
A puppet being operated by the real villain?
But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?
Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.
I…
They hired Andy Serkis. You don’t do that for a nothing throw away character.cough Dooku cough
Dooku has way more backstory than Snoke though.
He also was never presented as the big bad of the trilogy.
So, smaller role and more context.
A puppet being operated by the real villain?
But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?
Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.
I…
They hired Andy Serkis. You don’t do that for a nothing throw away character.
A puppet being operated by the real villain?
But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?
Why create the Kylo Ren character and make him obsessed with Vader if you’re not building to a “Kylo and force ghost Anakin have an intense discussion” scene?
And what kind of sequels to Return of The Jedi don’t have Luke (and Leia) and Anakin chatting it up?
With some of the more recent leaks/rumors I’ve seen, it got me thinking this morning more about Palpatine’s return and how it could potentially recontextualize the entire saga. It is a bit scary to think about, depending on how they pull it off, but honestly I don’t think I’m worried about it anymore.
I was rewatching Ian McDiarmid’s scene’s from ROTJ the other day, and thinking about them again made me realize that, if we do see him, it is going to be CRAZY to see him again as the Emperor onscreen. Think about it from McDiarmid’s perspective. In his late 30s, he got to play the old “ruler of the universe” in a few brief scenes in one of the biggest franchises of all time, and he thought that would be it. Then George comes back to him 15 years later and asks him to play the same character again in three more films. What’s even better is that since Ian has gotten a little older, and the movies take place decades before the original trilogy, he’s the perfect age to reprise the role.
Then those films wrap in 2005 and McDiarmid officially hangs up the black robe. Or does he? Flash-forward another 15 years, and sequels to the original trilogy are being made. Not only that, but they want him back AGAIN to play the Emperor in the last film in the saga. Now, being 74, Ian is actually much closer in age to the old Emperor, and he might appear as he did onscreen almost 40 years ago.
It’s just crazy to think about, and honestly one of the more unique performances an actor has gotten to experience over the entirety of his career. I think that alone will be enough for me to sit back and enjoy it in the theater. It just something I could have never imagined happening.
But who was Snoke???
Are there people who don’t like that he opened up Cloud City and showed crowds and stuff?
Or is that change generally liked?It’d be better if it was consistant. Most of the windows only exist in one shot, then disappear in the next.
I’ve seen people say this, and maybe it’s true, but I’ve never noticed it. And I notice little things like Ewan’s mouthpiece/headset falling down in almost every shot of him in the opening of Episode 3.