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MikeWW said:
You know you didn’t engage my points so don’t like you have the… high ground.Back at you, sir.
You might want to give some thought to an exit strategy.
Is that a suicide reference?
I repeat, I’m ending this conversation. Now please shut up.
I accept your concession.
But seriously, come on. You know you didn’t engage my points so don’t like you have the… high ground.
You don’t seem to be remembering AotC right.
Really? How about you describe the romance in AOTC. I’ll wait.
Refute my Finn points then we’ll talk.
Okay.
Finn’s character development in TFA is mostly centered on his unwillingness to fight. He starts out as a First Order janitor: he’s technically part of the First Order, but he isn’t really committed to their cause. The movie starts with Finn’s first battle, where he experiences the horrors of war for the first time. One of his stormtrooper friends dies, and he is ordered to slaughter hundreds of innocent civilians. Finn decides that he doesn’t want to fight for the First Order, and frees Poe so that he can help Finn escape. Poe wants to go back to Jakku to help the Resistance, but Finn wants to get away from the war. After they crash land on Jakku, Finn meets Rey and BB-8, and Finn agrees to help return BB-8 to the Resistance, but he still doesn’t want to fight. After they meet Han and travel to Maz’s castle, Maz argues with Finn. Maz urges Finn to fight against the Dark Side, but Finn says that fighting the First Order is futile, and he decides to leave. The only reason he doesn’t leave is because he wants to find Rey. Then, the First Order attacks, leaving Finn no choice but to fight. After the battle, Rey gets captured, and all the other characters, including Finn, go to the Resistance base. Finn creates a plan to disable the shields on Starkiller Base, but secretly, he just wants to help Rey. After he disables the shields and finds Rey, Han decides to help the Resistance blow up the base, leaving Finn no choice but to fight once again. Kylo kills Han, and Finn and Rey encounter Kylo in the woods. Kylo slices Finn’s back, leaving him unconscious for the rest of the movie.
By the end of the movie, Finn has left the First Order, but he still hasn’t joined the Resistance. This is made clear many times in the movie. His motivations are obvious and his arc is clear.
Your turn. Describe the romance in AOTC. I’ll wait.
You didn’t engage with my points at all you just typed up an on paper summary.
I did engage with your points, though: The “on paper summary” proves that Finn’s character arc is consistent and clear. But since it’s obvious that you can’t be reasoned with, I’m ending this conversation.
You did not. My points are up thread for all to see.
Finn is whooping with excitement at the very trauma that set his ““arc”” in motion.
You don’t seem to be remembering AotC right.
Really? How about you describe the romance in AOTC. I’ll wait.
Refute my Finn points then we’ll talk.
Okay.
Finn’s character development in TFA is mostly centered on his unwillingness to fight. He starts out as a First Order janitor: he’s technically part of the First Order, but he isn’t really committed to their cause. The movie starts with Finn’s first battle, where he experiences the horrors of war for the first time. One of his stormtrooper friends dies, and he is ordered to slaughter hundreds of innocent civilians. Finn decides that he doesn’t want to fight for the First Order, and frees Poe so that he can help Finn escape. Poe wants to go back to Jakku to help the Resistance, but Finn wants to get away from the war. After they crash land on Jakku, Finn meets Rey and BB-8, and Finn agrees to help return BB-8 to the Resistance, but he still doesn’t want to fight. After they meet Han and travel to Maz’s castle, Maz argues with Finn. Maz urges Finn to fight against the Dark Side, but Finn says that fighting the First Order is futile, and he decides to leave. The only reason he doesn’t leave is because he wants to find Rey. Then, the First Order attacks, leaving Finn no choice but to fight. After the battle, Rey gets captured, and all the other characters, including Finn, go to the Resistance base. Finn creates a plan to disable the shields on Starkiller Base, but secretly, he just wants to help Rey. After he disables the shields and finds Rey, Han decides to help the Resistance blow up the base, leaving Finn no choice but to fight once again. Kylo kills Han, and Finn and Rey encounter Kylo in the woods. Kylo slices Finn’s back, leaving him unconscious for the rest of the movie.
By the end of the movie, Finn has left the First Order, but he still hasn’t joined the Resistance. This is made clear many times in the movie. His motivations are obvious and his arc is clear.
Your turn. Describe the romance in AOTC. I’ll wait.
You didn’t engage with my points at all you just typed up an on paper summary.
You don’t seem to be remembering AotC right.
Really? How about you describe the romance in AOTC. I’ll wait.
Refute my Finn points then we’ll talk.
“Objective”???
Yes, objective.
Anakin in AOTC is one of the worst written characters in film history. Nothing about his character or his romance with Padme is consistent or logical. At first, he seems like a complete creep. He says that Padme has “grown more beautiful,” stares at her longingly in every scene, and talks about how she appears in his wet dreams. Then, for some reason, Anakin begins to act less and less creepy. In the picnic scene, it seems like Anakin and Padme actually like each other, for no explained reason. Then, in the sunset scene, Anakin starts to act creepy again, and Padme says that she doesn’t like Anakin, completely contradicting the previous scene. After Anakin slaughters the Sand People, he starts ranting about it to Padme, and Padme is shocked. The next time the romance is mentioned is in the arena scene, where Padme, out of nowhere, says that she actually loves Anakin, contradicting almost every scene they had together. They get married at the end, but it doesn’t feel earned, because they only liked each other for 2 scenes.
It’s objectively wrong to say that AOTC had anything even resembling consistent plotting. TFA isn’t the best Star Wars movie, but the characters have consistent traits and clear arcs.
You don’t seem to be remembering AotC right.
Also I explained how Finn’s arc/traits is/are mangled.
There must be a movie with a barn burning down in it? I think it was a barn fire mentioned in Generations? A period film with a fire scene might be a good match to the buildings seen in the Family episode of TNG. It certainly can’t be a modern looking structure.
Where’s a good place to host an image?
SomethingStarWarsRelated said:
[MikeWW said:]
In theory sure, but compare TFA to ANH.
George’s version of “faster more intense” works, whereas JJ’s results in cringily overplayed scenes like Finn and Poe’s “good to meet you too” scene.On a related note, Oscar Isaac is really really bad in TFA. It’s like he didn’t know his character.
He either overplays it or under plays it. In the Trench run he seems bored.I would say all of that is subjective. I liked the “good to meet you too” scene. And I think Oscar Isaac is good in the film.
The dialogue in the scene is really bad and overlong and the actors seemed under the influence of some kind of stimulant.
George is the common element of every good movie he was involved in.
He’s also the common and often controlling element of many bad films in which he’s involved.
He hasn’t made a bad film other than Red Tails, which he didn’t even direct.
The closest to bad would be Episode 2, but it’s still far less narratively incoherent than Kasdan’s Episode 7.Hahahahaha, are you serious? TFA is more incoherent than AOTC?
I legitimately cannot take another word you say seriously after that statement.
JEDIT: And in your next post you call AOTC Anakin “more consistent” than TFA Finn? That’s just objectively absurd.
“Objective”??? Now who’s being ridiculous?
Provide a counterargument, guy.Nah, I’m good.
I accept your concession.
SomethingStarWarsRelated said:
Personally I find that the plot and even character inconsistencies can sometimes go right past me if the characters convey their respective emotions genuinely. Even on repeat viewings I will still give certain things a pass.
With the example of TFA VS. AOTC: the characters in TFA arguably emote better than in AOTC. Therefore (for better or worse) I tend to lean more towards TFA being the better film. There are things I enjoy about AOTC, but with the lack of characters emotions and motivations, the plot holes and incosistancies really stand out because the characters aren’t keeping my attention.
In theory sure, but compare TFA to ANH.
George’s version of “faster more intense” works, whereas JJ’s results in cringily overplayed scenes like Finn and Poe’s “good to meet you too” scene.
On a related note, Oscar Isaac is really really bad in TFA. It’s like he didn’t know his character.
He either overplays it or under plays it. In the Trench run he seems bored.
George is the common element of every good movie he was involved in.
He’s also the common and often controlling element of many bad films in which he’s involved.
He hasn’t made a bad film other than Red Tails, which he didn’t even direct.
The closest to bad would be Episode 2, but it’s still far less narratively incoherent than Kasdan’s Episode 7.Hahahahaha, are you serious? TFA is more incoherent than AOTC?
I legitimately cannot take another word you say seriously after that statement.
JEDIT: And in your next post you call AOTC Anakin “more consistent” than TFA Finn? That’s just objectively absurd.
“Objective”??? Now who’s being ridiculous?
Provide a counterargument, guy.
The closest to bad would be Episode 2, but it’s still far less narratively incoherent than Kasdan’s Episode 7.
I have to disagree with that. Episode 7 is derivative and forced, but it has a much more coherent narrative than the mess that is Episode 2.
This seems impossible to believe if you look at the issue clear eyed.
I’m not at home so I’ll just use an example rather than write a wall of text on every similar example in the film.
Take Finn. He’s supposed to be a “programmed from birth” Nazi, basically. And yet he defects out of sadness at his friend’s death or something, then proceeds to whoop and holler as he blows troppers up later.
He also doesn’t really display signs of indoctrination besides being a bit of a beta Male at times. His personality seems too well adjusted.
Contrast that, with, say, Anakin in Episode 2. He’s much more consistent. (I can point to one minor instance of him being a little too flip for the context, but that’s it.)
The problem with JJ Abrams and people who liked TFA more than the PT is that they confuse “likeability” with quality.
George is the common element of every good movie he was involved in.
He’s also the common and often controlling element of many bad films in which he’s involved.
He hasn’t made a bad film other than Red Tails, which he didn’t even direct.
The closest to bad would be Episode 2, but it’s still far less narratively incoherent than Kasdan’s Episode 7.
And Kasdan wrote The Force Awakens.
And Irvin Kershner peaked with ESB.
I think you’re missing the point here. Yes, the prequels are bad, and part of the reason why is because George surrounded himself with yes men. But that doesn’t say anything about George’s editing talents. The prequels are actually decently edited: the problem is with the script and acting, not the editing. Also, George edited Jurassic Park, and I don’t see anyone complaining about the bad editing in that movie.
You’re confusing editing for time and pacing with editing for awkward embarrassing content. I think we did this discussion already somewhere. And I think your glossing over the point to raise up the guy as a talent beyond the seeds and the ideas of the story. As for the rest of this thread which has devolved into random tangents about Stanley Kubrick and people taking things personally, I have no idea where to begin. This is OT.com after all, a place where people know the sole genius legend is a lie.
You can’t refute my evidence that points to George being the common element of quality, and that’s ok. But admit it.
By saved in editing I mean exactly that, it’s no longer an ambiguous idea since now we’ve all seen what a slog the original structure would have been and how bad the deleted scenes are.
Yes, the original edit of Star Wars was bad, but the original edits of most movies are bad, too. That’s why editing exists. Star Wars wasn’t “saved by the edit” more than any other movie.
Yeah but what I’m saying is that we know what it looks like when George has 100% control, without these award winning editors, and it’s the PT. Those films were edited. But he needs those other more creative people to save it from his “vision” which is usually awful when dozens of yes-men are involved.
George is the common element of every good movie he was involved in.
The Hyucks were not involved in ESB or RotJ. Kasdan was not involved with ANH.
Lucas had no co director for ANH. Or American Graffiti. Or THX 1138.
And by the way, Marcia Lucas didn’t like THX 1138, but Stanley Kubrick did. And Stanley Kubrick also liked Graffiti and SW, so he didn’t THX because of Murch or whatever the meme might be to discredit Lucas’ work on that film.
And again, John Milius said himself that George was the good editor of their friend group.
Ylu are being willfully ignorant.
How can people just ignore all the available evidence?
Is John Milius lying?
.
I have always felt that Robert and Rene’s deaths being offscreen really cheapens their impact.
My goal with this proof of concept edit would be to create a new opening of the film where it hard opens (no fade in) on a shot of a burning building in a field, and then, without cutting, have a figure run into the building shouting “RENE!!!”. Then the building collapses. THEN it cuts to the shots of the HMS Enterprise on the holodeck.
Fire and water or something.
I would have to find somewhat similar footage to what I am describing from another film and cut it together like Lucas did with the Dam Busters.
I haven’t figured out where to put the Kirk/Enterprise B opening footage though.
Any thoughts?
By saved in editing I mean exactly that, it’s no longer an ambiguous idea since now we’ve all seen what a slog the original structure would have been and how bad the deleted scenes are.
In addition to the above posts that explain why that is not a reflection on Lucas, I would say that some of the deleted scenes are actually very enjoyable.
Luke and Biggs on Tatooine for example.
I disagree with Anakin’s turn being unbelievable in the film, but even if it is, Stover’s novel is still overwritten schlock IMO. His prose is just corny.
And AotC might have MORE reshoots, but to me they don’t alter the film as much as RotS’ post production did.
The RotS novelization has 3 big problems.
Bonus problem- His characterization of Dooku was questionable compared to better EU entries such as Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.
But Regarding AotC, I don’t think it was changed more, I think the changes are just more obvious. The fake beard and all that.
Possibly! Maybe that is the side-effect of what the audience gets out of it, especially with a more clickbaity title. I do think general opinions of fans have already become a lot less anti-George than it was 10 years ago.
Not really the topic of this thread, but the rearranging in post for ROTS is super interesting! The Secret History of Star Wars go into that to an extent. Would love to talk about that.
The Secret History of SW is indeed an interesting book. Regrettably though, the guy has a tenandancy to turn his opinions into a narrative.
What’s funny though is that the (pre Disney) Star Wars movie most altered in the edit is probably Revenge of The Sith, and even Mathew Stover who wrote the novelization (that people like to say is better than the movie) called George’s assembly edit-based reshoots “genius”.
I feel that “saved in the edit” is indeed a phrase that carries certain anti-GL-credit connotations. Otherwise, what is the implication? That the editors salvaged George’s mess. It implies a distance between the film being shot and the film being edited.
Speaking of (in the OP) “Skywalking”, that was the book (along with Rinzler’s ESB book) that really shaped my opinion of George as a talented guy who was the single person most responsible for the OT being what it was.
Before that I just assumed that people were being honest about all the “saved in editing by his wife”, “he wasn’t very involved in ESB compared to the other films”, etc.
There are those out there that want you to believe that Lucas is the Bob Kane of Star Wars.