Matt.F

Ha! ZING!

One thing I have to applaud… this set. So good to have the production back at Pinewood building major sets, utilising practical costumes and FX for these new SW flicks. This particular set has a real Flash Gordon emperor Ming vibe. Love it!

Rian Johnson on Leia in space…

Rian Johnson, the film’s writer and director, said that the idea came from LucasFilm boss Kathleen Kennedy, who remembered Luke telling Leia in Return Of The Jedi about her own Force abilities.

“She kept asking, ‘Leia’s a Skywalker, Luke gave her this speech in Jedi and told her basically, ‘You have this potential, too.’,” he told Entertainment Weekly.

“It seemed to me it would be a really emotionally impactful thing to see her use it.”

He added: “I liked the idea it would be an instinctual thing. This would be more like stories you hear about parents of toddlers who get caught under cars and they get Hulk strength and lift the car up. It would be something in these final moments to show that she’s not done with the fight. And like a drowning person pulling herself back, that’s how it manifests itself for the first time in her.”

Yes, I’m a defender of this movie but I cant defend BB-8 in the Scout Walker. It was poorly done both in concept and in execution, looked very CG and phony.

BB-8 with the coins… hmmm not quite as egregious and did get a smile out of me, but even so I get the feeling that pretty much every fanedit will remove that moment.

Nitpick, complain, whine, whinge… throw toys out of the pram! However you want to word it, there’s an awful lot of it going on.

It comes down to people complaining that there is a bad thing in the Sequel Trilogy, and you hold up the mirror and say well look, that same bad thing happened in the Original Trilogy.

The worst part about rebutting nitpickers is that you have to ‘become one’.

Nitpicker: “Luke would never have turned his back on the world. I hate TLJ!”

Me: “But Yoda turned his back on the world.”

Uh-oh wait… does that mean I now have to hate ESB?! Dang!

Thanks Val. On one hand you have someone saying they like the moments of humour and cuteness with the Ewoks, and on the other you have someone saying they’d like to see their dead corpses strung up on Endor.

Whatever Adywan goes with it really is one of those “you cant please all people all of the time” choices!

Whether the stable boy will be back I don’t know.

My reading at the time was that he was ‘representative’ of there being more force sensitive beings throughout the galaxy. Rather like Chirrut in Rogue One. That reading also plays in to what Luke says; “To say the Jedi dies, the Force dies, is vanity”.

Maybe he will be back though and Lucasfilm are sewing seeds for later like Disney have done in the Marvel Universe movies. Who knows.

Without the other they both would have been dead in that confrontation.

Yes, I definitely count it as epic. The crimson red chamber was really striking, brilliant visual sequence that I cant wait to rewatch time and time again. Highlight of TLJ for me.

The comparison of Jedi to the MCU that one user keeps making… evoking Wonder Woman, Superman, Spiderman.

I can see why people would make that parallel and of course the Marvel movies have been so prevalent this past decade.

However I have never thought of Jedi as superheroes.

To me the parallel are Samurai and Knights of the Round Table.

In Star Wars duels are settled with swords, yes the ‘force powers’ come into play a little, but essentially they are sword fights.

I’d be interested in peoples thoughts on why Sci-Fi movies as a genre seem to attract the kind of ‘microscopic’ forensic analysis that other genres don’t.

As the link to the ESB letters page shows, and having lived the period myself, it has always been there. This desire to nitpick, and to pull at all the threads and cleverly say “Ha, I knew it, this is the one that causes it all to unravel!”.

Is it because sci-fi and fantasy fans are more intelligent and able to deconstruct films better than most?

Is it because they become more invested in the ‘universe’ of the movie and so it matters to them more than regular punters?

Is it because they’re socially awkward? That old stereotype, don’t feel assured in the real world and don’t feel assured around girls (we’ve seen that with the reaction to Rey and with the new Dr Who casting).

Is it because of the Prequels - ‘George Lucas raped my childhood’ - did that moment change geek fandom?

There are countless examples in this forum of people trying to pull at the threads and unravel The Last Jedi, and as a fan of the film I am trying not to be judgmental. I have also been on the other side, as I walked out of Attack Of The Clones having hated the photoshop aesthetic and I am sure I vented a bit on social media too.

Anyone have any insight? Why does this happen so purposefully in sci-fi / fantasy but not in other movie genres?

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

No, there is no difference between the nitpicks of Empire and The Last Jedi. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

I agree, but with The Last Jedi having so many wonderfully humorous moments (more belly laughs in that one than any previous Star Wars) and Adywan being a fan, I am hoping his opinion on keeping / or cutting comedy will lean towards the keeping.

I understand that the Chewie Tarzan roar is incongruous and ought to go, and I also agree that the Gonk Droid being tortured is a bit silly and could be cut. However, the throne room duel and the space battle are serious - the Ewok battle down on Endor provides the levity for that stretch of the film. I hope ‘Bolas Ewok’ and some of his other pals make the cut. They’re cute, and they’re funny. Embrace them for what they are, and let Ewoks be Ewoks!

adywan said:
Remove the slapstick Ewok moments during the battle.

I watched Jedi recently with my daughters and the moment that got the biggest reaction from them in the whole movie was when the Ewok hits itself with the bolas. They were rolling around in hysterics.

I know that humour and comedy are often the first casualties of a fan edit, but Adywan I hope that you might be gentle when it comes to snipping away the moments of levity.

Star Wars is a family saga, and us oldies need to be reminded sometimes of the simple moments of comedy or cuteness that delight the young (and the young at heart). Smiles and laughter are part of Star Wars for me, and are one of the reasons why Star Wars works globally regardless of nationality (who knew that Britain’s biggest comedy export of last decade would be Mister Bean - slapstick humour, it’s lowbrow but there’s no denying it’s loved around the world and transcends language barriers). Slapstick and sight gags work globally, and Revisited is for a global audience.

And let’s also remember that the one moment from ESB Revisited that gets the most mentions and praise is the new gag you added, when the AT-AT falls on the Scout Walker. A moment of slapstick that Lucas himself would be proud of.

So be gentle when it comes to removing humour. We need laughter in the world!

DrDre said:
Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

Sorry Frink I didn’t mean to open up old wounds and rekindle the Mary Sue debate, I myself was responding to Dre’s comment above. That comment launched it. I don’t like the Mary Sue criticism, I think its tedious and it is emboldening a certain unsavoury section of fandom that I would rather not embolden.

Dre, I should be really clear I am not calling you a misogynist. But I am calling you ‘naive’ for thinking that it doesn’t exist in geek culture, and that the character of Rey specifically has brought it out of the woodwork.

See this article… http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/

An alt-right group named Down With Disney’s Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys is taking responsibility for flooding Rotten Tomatoes with negative reviews of the Rian Johnson-directed blockbuster. One of the biggest headlines surrounding the film has been the fan backlash, specifically the movie’s shockingly low Rotten Tomatoes user score. As of this posting, “The Last Jedi” currently has a 54% user score from over 132,000 reviews.

The number is in direct contrast to the film’s A CinemaScore and 92% critic score on the website, which has made some question what exactly is going on. A moderator for the alt-right group has broken his silence to The Huffington Post to claim that the group has been using bots to significantly bring down the film’s Rotten Tomatoes user score.

The moderator explained to The Huffington Post that the group is upset with “Star Wars” for “introducing more female characters into the franchise’s universe.” The group is also not happy that Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac) has become a “victim of the anti-mansplaining movement” and that characters like Poe and Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill) are in danger of being “turned gay.” The moderator said men should be “reinstated as rulers of society,” and expressed distaste for the way “The Last Jedi” disrespects the franchise’s history.

There were supposed to be a trilogy of books and then some after set in the Legends canon. But [Lucasfilm executives] Kathleen Kennedy and Pablo Hidalgo wanted to pursue their own feminist [sic] agenda,” the moderator wrote to The Huffington Post. “I was never going to like ‘The Last Jedi’ anyway because [it] erases everything the Extended Universe ever did.”

As for his issues with the focus on female characters, the moderator said, “Did you not see everything that came out of ‘Ghostbusters’? That is why. I’m sick and tired of men being portrayed as idiots. There was a time we ruled society and I want to see that again. That is why I voted for Donald Trump.”

Daisy Ridley herself has come out and stated that she believes the ‘Mary Sue’ tag is sexist and inappropriate.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/

I haven’t accused anyone on this forum, I have made the point that Mary Sue Rey has been taken up elsewhere in a misogynistic fashion. Do you disagree?

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before, and both Anakin TPM and Luke ANH provide consistent parallel examples with Rey… all characters beginning ‘The Hero’s Journey’.

The moderators on this forum are super-engaged and I suspect that misogyny would be quickly suppressed, but I am sure many of the guys on here also read other forums, reddit, facebook and have seen with their own eyes that the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint has been the rallying call for a rather ugly streak of misogyny to come out of the woodwork. Kathleen Kennedy has also been on the receiving end.

For Dre to dismiss it as “anti-feminist nonsense” is really naïve. You don’t have to be a ‘Social Justice Warrior’ to see that it’s a good thing to have female heroes and role models. You just have to be a human being.

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 20 to 30 minutes training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

It is all there on screen and in the script, for those who choose to be selective and not accept it because it doesn’t fit into your ‘head canon’… well no one can do anything about that other than themselves.

Yes, and of course the theme that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment and resist the dark side is deeply explored in The Last Jedi, and is far more compelling than “you’re born with Midichlorians”. George set the ‘rules’ that you adhere to and then he changed them, so I am certain that you must have absolutely loved The Last Jedi, as it elegantly sidesteps the mistake of Midichlorians and rather than a scientific, measurable Force we return to a purely spiritual one.

We had inconcistency with the prequels and now we have gone full circle and returned consistency with the original trilogy. Rian Johnson pulled off a masterstroke and I cant wait to see his next trilogy. I believe it will be incredible.

I know others see it differently, and are walking away from Star Wars fandom, and that is fine. We all like what we like. That’s the simple truth.

To counter balance some of the youtuber reviews of The Last Jedi that people have posted in this thread, let’s take a look at some actual reviews from professionals who watch movies, critique and analyse them for a living…

“Rian Johnson’s middle chapter in the current Star Wars trilogy is the epic you’ve been looking for. Capped by Mark Hamill in the performance of his career, it points the way ahead to a next generation of skywalkers - and, thrillingly, to a new hope.” Rolling Stone

“Rian Johnson, writer and director of this film, took my Star Wars reveries and served them back to me with vast improvements.” The Guardian

“It is the best and most innovative Star Wars film to come along in a long time and you would think that this would inspire celebration in the streets among longtime fans of the franchise.” filmcritic.com

“As the third act approaches, the crescendo of air-punching interludes accelerates, eliciting gasps, cheers and OMG whoops from an audience whom Johnson treats with respect, affection, and evident admiration.” Mark Kermode

Rotten Tomatoes 91% Fresh (positive rating).
Metacritic 86% (positive rating).

In Return Of The Jedi, the teeniest, tiniest ship in the Rebel Fleet, an A-Wing takes out a Super Star Destroyer with a ramming manoeuvre.

In The Last Jedi, the mightiest, largest ship in the Rebel Fleet, the Calamari Cruiser takes out a Super Star Destroyer with a ramming manoeuvre.

But, it’s The Last Jedi that people have a problem with?

For those saying its a plot hole and why don’t the rebels hyperspace all their smaller ships in to Star Destroyers, well when Vader arrives at the end of Rogue One we see how well that turns out for the smaller ships!