Matt.F

DrDre said:
These are the rules of the Star Wars universe.

There are no rules - more like guidelines!

Each movie is its own individual thing. Each movie needs to tell its own fairy tale in isolation. The director and the writer need that freedom of expression.

We’ve had the Star Wars ‘man on a mission’ movie, and in days to come we may well have the Star Wars ‘western’, the Star Wars ‘gangster movie’, etc

The fans that don’t enjoy The Last Jedi seem to have a problem with grasping this. They don’t like the creative freedom, which is an essential part of movie making. They want ‘rules’, they don’t want guidelines. But that would be a stagnant environment for creativity, a walled garden where the same elements are recycled over and over.

Let’s look again with an open mind at the original three movies, and realise that despite the Special Edition’s attempt to ‘homogenise’ them and unify the logo design, the poster art, and the fx… that they are not the same. Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return Of The Jedi are three VERY different films, in every measurable way.

The Kubrickian Star Wars, the lush humanist romance of Empire Strikes Back, and the Roger Moore era Bond big set pieces and broad gags of Jedi.

So I would say to Star Wars fans… allow difference. Embrace it. Loosen up about rules. Do not fear change. Allow each new director their creative vision. And you might just find yourself enjoying the ride!

I saw this and couldn’t resist one last post… this is a wonderful example of how little has changed. Way back on June 13th 1983 the proto-internet Usenet allowed for a regular fan, not a professional movie reviewer or journo, to post his thoughts about George Lucas’s new movie Return Of The Jedi.

Here’s the link: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.movies.sw%2FmFmFfbvvsG4%2F6TyZ9YBb02MJ

And here is that review, enjoy:

Discrete Review: I started off not liking it, but changed my mind about half way
through once I got used to the nauseatingly cute Ewoks (they had “New Star
Wars Toys” spelled out all over them) and something else I’m surprised I only
saw mentioned once so far.

I thought that RotJ was very heavy on gratuitous violence compared to both its
predecessors. It bothered me that the audience would laugh every time a
Stormtrooper smashed into a tree on his motorcycle. It ended up reminding me of
nothing more than a live-action Road Runner cartoon. This casual attitude
toward death was reinforced when all the good guys ended up coming back as
holograms anyway. Kicked the bucket? Not to worry - you just get a bit
translucent, that’s all. Sort of takes away something in the dramatic impact
department, though.

The plot: And now for something completely different. (The Larch). Did we
really need to see another Death Star blow up? (“It blowed up good”, “Yeah,
it blowed up real good”). Is the plot of this series being recycled mod 2 or
what?

Worst muppet: the blue elephant - gimme a break.

Worst scene: the mushy stuff with Han & Leia on Endor. Also, the
strangulation of Pizza the Hutt was just not convincing. That chain didn’t cut
into Jabba’s neck (such as it was) at all.

Best part: when Luke slices off DV’s hand, sees the machinery, and then flexes
his own mechanical hand wondering if the Emp is right about his “destiny”.

Best joke: when Han is hot-wiring the back door and says “I think I got it”, and
another set of doors closes. Thank goodness at least the Millenium Falcon
worked this time.

Although I thought the final confrontation with the Emperor was the best scene
in the movie, I agree with the comments that it was a rather hokey way for him
to go, down the hatch that is. I don’t understand why he didn’t just turn his
high-voltage arcing on Darth Vader when he lifted him up. He just stood there
frozen, uselessly zapping the ceiling on his way to be dumped. But it was great
the way all the excess blue stuff came splashing back up the well after he hit
bottom. Boy he sure had a lot of it stored up!

RotJ had its moments, but I think my thirst for SW movies has now been
quenched.

		- Michel 

So there you have it… proof that butthurt Star Wars nerds have been around long before this current generation of whiners and nitpickers nursing their rings following The Last Jedi!

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I should restrict myself to checking in on Adywan’s progress in the Fan Edit section of this site.

I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.

Ha, Dre - you’ve proven nothing!

You have an issue with Rey, but Luke did his “massive” Dagobah training in what… around 48 hours or so.

It’s true, if you applied your level of nitpicking to Empire Strikes Back you’d rip it to shreds but saying that The Last Jedi fails is ‘selective’ in the extreme.

My suggestion for those grown men who choose to nitpick - and I don’t know whether this applies to yourself or not, this is a general suggestion - would be to go and watch the movie with children. Whether your own kids or a nephew, and see it through their eyes. It might make you remember some of the magic and escapism you felt when you first watched ESB as a child.

DrDre said:

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but this really grinds my gears. Just to point out how poorly concieved TLJ is, and how it undermines the earlier films, here’s an image:

The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.

---

-Edit-

DrDre, I accidentally added my comments to your post when I meant to quote. I’ve restored your post and quoted further down the page. That’s the reason it shows your post was edited. Sorry about that.
Anchorhead

DrDre, once again you’re nitpicking in an overtly pedantic fashion simply designed to pick apart The Last Jedi, and you’re being blinkered to the fact that the Star Wars Saga has always been a space ‘fantasy’ rather than sci-fi.

If you’d been the man you are now the first time you had seen Empire Strikes Back then I am sure you would be the one telling everyone how ridiculous it was that the Snowspeeders kept flying in front of the AT AT Walkers, when all they needed to do was flank around and attack them from the rear. They would have had all day to shoot them and fire their cables.

If you’d been the man you are now you’d have failed to accept that Han, Chewie and Leia could have walked around in the Slug cave ‘in space’ without suits on. And 101 other things no doubt would have raised your ire.

This is a space fantasy, all you’re doing is killing it for yourself and others.

What happens with Rey is different to the Younglings and the traditional Jedi training.

The Force Awakens in her. ‘Awakens’ as a descriptor is used again in TLJ too.

DrDre said:

MalàStrana said:

What if IX makes her the Chosen One then ? (but it would go against the “socialist” view of the movie about the Force which belongs to everyone, no-one included). If you think about it, Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi of the Order but thanks to Obi-Wan restraints he never got too much powerful (TPM and then AOTC deal with that actually) while growing mistrust against the Order (TCW/ROTS deal with that as well). Imagine if he had stayed alone a a shitty planet, would he have become like Rey, very powerful in a matter of days ?
But I agree about Rey nonetheless, I has always been my main criticism against TFA.

Yeah, but even Anakin needed years of training to become a Jedi. He could see things before they happen, which was presented as a trait of someone with a lot of Force potential, but to use Jedi mind tricks, levitation, and to be proficient with a lightsaber required a lot of effort.

This scene in TESB clashes with the final scenes of TLJ in a major way:

Again, these are ‘perceived continuity clashes’ that you’re pulling out simply to try and discredit the new movies.

Now that you’re using the PT here’s one for you - why didn’t Ben take Luke to be trained by Yoda at a much younger age?

We know he has Skywalker blood - the Force is biological right? We know in ESB that Yoda thinks Luke should have been trained far younger. Why did Kenobi leave it so long?

There is no good answer - and nit picking and holding these new films to it is just a double standard.

doubleofive said:

I’m sure Ady is aware of this one, it’s one of the classic “movie mistakes”.

I suspect he is, when it comes to Star Wars knowledge the guy appears to be omnipotent!

DrDre said:

I’m out of here.

Using the r-word to describe a fictional character is apparently bad enough for a moderator to weigh in, but directly calling a user an asshole and telling them to fuck off is not?!!! If mr. Frink objected to the use of the word, he could have just said so in a civilized manner. I would have apologized, and that would have been the end of it.

I’ve outstayed my welcome on these boards. Hasta la vista baby.

Wish some people would stick to their promises…

Suggestion for fix:

When the Ewoks make the surprise attack outside the bunker, you see Han pick up his blaster from the ground before hurling a Stormtrooper. Hard to spot without slow motion but there are actually two of his blasters placed in front of him, presumably to make it easier for Harrison to grab one in the midst of an action moment.

I’d add a screenshot but I don’t know how to add images!

Can anyone tell me how to add a pic on this forum?

Seeing as this is the thread that everyone’s reading right now, good place to give a ‘heads up’ to fellow British fans…

“The Galaxy Britain Built” is on Thurs 10pm on BBC Four. Documentary with new interviews with Gareth Edwards, Gary Kurtz, Rob Watts, John Mollo and many more. Set your recorders!

An abridged half hour version of the documentary is already available to watch right now on BBC iPlayer.

Looks like there is a thread for that so let me pose the question in a different way - “what was your least favourite scene or sequence in the film?”

Anyone can answer, and could be interesting to hear specific answers as many criticisms are broad ones.

For me, as much as I like BB8 I would happily say goodbye to the monocle alien feeding him coins and then the pay off scene of firing them at the guard. Also BB8 again, driving the Scout Walker didn’t work for me.

Adywan, I know that The Last Jedi will never get the Revisited treatment but are there any obvious nips and snips to sequences you’d make if you were to do a quickie style edit?

Yes, I took that moment and Luke’s narration I believed backed this up that he was instinctively raising his lightsaber against the dark side - the terrible darkness - rather than against Ben Solo. Saying he was going to murder his young nephew is rather literal - it was what he glimpsed ‘within’ Ben that he instinctively thought to strike down.

adywan said:

MalàStrana said:

It’s one shot which is really an issue, the one where he walks to Ren. The close-ups are fine (I say “bad” for a SW standard !).

Thats the only shot in the whole film that he looked a little fake because of the walking. They still haven’t perfected CG characters walking yet. All the closeups on his face were amazing. best CG work on a humanoid face yet

Yes, that shot where his arm ‘sashays’ when he walks looks a little off. There is a final close up shot of him dead, with his tongue lolling out slightly. I actually wondered if this particular shot was a model rather than CG? Looking forward to hearing the directors commentary and seeing Making Of docus to find out more.

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

In reality we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

DrDre said:

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan.

Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

Because the Mind Probe only works when you’re close to someone, you cant do a Mind Probe from trillions of miles away - thought everyone knew that! You in particular who had earlier kept banging on about characters having to be close to each other to mentally connect. Blimey, you’re not being very consistent.

“Mind probe was a powerful ability of the Force that allowed the user to sift through the thoughts of the victim, seeking useful information. The mind probe was highly invasive and and those being subjected to it could feel great discomfort, to the point of extreme pain, making it useful in torturing subjects that attempted to resist. However, such resistance would be unsuccessful in a being without the power to use the Force.[5]”

Hang on DrDre, read that last line again… because that’s not what you’ve claimed. You claim only Force Users can be mind probed. This says the opposite. What a surprise. In fact Adywan is right - Force Users have defence against having their minds read… non Force Users do not.

Dre… you’re wrong. Have been all along. Sorry old chap.

And if we are using wiki, then this clarifies that Leia was a force ‘USER’ prior to A New Hope, when she apparently saved a girl from falling off a balcony.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

Shall we continue DrDre?

Ryan said:
But let me ask, with all of the interviews that Lucas has done. Has he ever said that OT Vader could “read minds”?

Yes, it’s referenced in A New Hope during the Death Star conference the officer says '‘Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn’t helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fortress."

Vader also states that Leia’s “resistance to the mind probe is considerable”.

This backs up exactly what Adywan has said - that those with the Force are actually BETTER at resisting mind probing than those without. It is the opposite of this convoluted nonsense that DrDre has been tying himself in knots trying to justify.

If you want an in-universe explanation, then yes Vader does have clairvoyance, but no - after all his injuries he just isn’t very good at it and prefers to settle things with the old force choke instead!

No worries chap, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I very much enjoyed The Last Jedi, and whether you like it or not, it is now part of the Star Wars Saga and so are the ‘rules’ - for want of a better word - established within.

You’re very welcome to decide what to include in your own personal canon and your own special rules chap, wont include deleted scenes, wont include sequels, wont include prequels, etc. You’ve tied yourself in knots. Whatever helps you enjoy the films!

4Chan ‘burner’ accounts been used to skew Rotten Tomatoes user score of The Last Jedi.

Here’s the story: https://movieweb.com/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-audience-score-fake-news/

Yegads what have I become. I’ve never felt like such a nerd.

I never realised calling someone pedantic was such an insult! Let’s summarise.

The chap seems to have decided in his own head how magical Force mind powers work, apparently those with the Force can read other peoples minds but only other people that also have the Force. There’s no evidence within the films to state this is a ‘rule’ (in fact there is evidence to say it isn’t but that evidence is in TFA and apparently that’s inadmissible, there’s also evidence in the deleted opening of ROTJ of people communing long distance but apparently that’s inadmissible too). So the chap has decided to arbitrarily call it a rule that Vader cant read minds unless the person he reads has the Force. This essentially backs up some assertion he has made that Snoke’s mind powers are at odds with the rest of the Saga, ergo backs up his view that The Last Jedi is rubbish and everyone must know and agree with him how rubbish it is.

However… Leia has the Force. As Luke says “You have that power too”. She’s a Skywalker. Always has been. She’s filled with the Force. Oodles of Force. Been there the whole time.

So I’m afraid this chaps ruling on precisely how this magical, imaginary, fictional, mystical power works does not hold water, because according to his rule Vader should have been able to read her mind.

Case closed. Court adjourned. Good day to you sir!

Ryan, sure he does. He reads Luke’s about having a sister. He also does a ‘long distance’ - I cant believe im rising to the bait - telepathic convo with Luke in the deleted opening to ROTJ. Im sure pedantic boy will have some reason why those moments are invalidated.

He didn’t like the movie and wants everyone to know of his displeasure. I’ve seen the type many times.