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Wolfman said:
Heeeey ! Poor old Wolfman has had some shit chucked over him on this thread. :-(
Sorry buddy.....I had no idea you were watching. *pats back*
Tyrphanax said:
danny_boy said:
Whether you like or dislike these adjustements/enhancements is a matter of opinion.
The fact that Haseo would be just fine with redubbing all the dialogue to bring it up to date really takes the cake, though, and shows Lucas-esque levels of revisionism. I mean, if we had the OUT already, then sure, replace all the actors with Jar-Jar for the next Special Edition for all I care, but not until then.
I only said I'd only consider it if it were better than the OUT. Lucas made changes for the worst (for the most part). Also do not take my words out of context in order to establish credibility. You're better than that.
Can any of you really say that Mark and Carrie gave good performances in ANH? If we were to compare any of their scenes to a scene with acting like this.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bd_KCUZFk0
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvwTx1UWswQ
it falls short. And before you say "STAR WARS was shot back in 1976." just remeber that Harrison Ford, Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing gave good performances in STAR WARS so there's no excuse. As for redubbing I only mentioned Mark and Carrie. Everyone else did a serviceable to good jobs.
twister111 said:
Lord Haseo said:
No offense, but you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic. That's great for an individual, but we as a species need to cast aside these feeling if we're ever going to move forward.
It does pertain to the topic seeing as how Ady's work is like cybernetics. They're enhancements. The only thing that is dated about STAR WARS is it's dialogue and some of the visual effects and nothing more. The way in which GL tells his story is no different than any other film (more specifically film series) does. His methods go back to way days of antiquity with myths from many cultures that still evoke the same emotion that they did back then.
What are you on about!? I don't frankly care if you could scientifically prove on some weird objective basis that any fan-edited preservation is "technically" better. I just don't. I care about the high quality release of the originals because those are the films. Not the SE, not a fan edit, and not the altered Blu-ray versions. The Star Wars films are the original versions and thus it matters that they get released in high quality. Simple as that.
Never said I didn't want the OUT on Blu-Ray.
Harmy said:
Yeah, ok, so you say yourself that the dialogues are dated - would it be a good idea to rewrite and re-dub them? Today, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to even lip sync the actors' mouths to the new dialog and it would make the film more modern and therefore "better," right?
The movie as a whole is a product of its time - and if one wanted a more modern version of the same story, well, that's what remakes are for.
If it works perfectly I wouldn't see why not. But that is utterly impossible. As it stands Harrison Ford carried both Mark Hamill and Carrie Fished in STAR WARS and if someone were to add new dialogue and lip-syncing and made it perfect it would boost their performances given some of the lines and the way said lines were delivered weren't all that great. As for remakes the ONLY way I would even give it a thought if it were better than the OT.
Harmy said:
That is a big YES for me, yes, we shouldn't become a race of cyborgs - that's scary as hell.
Plus it has very little to do with the issue at hand - Revisited is better for you and you keep saying it's simply better and I'm saying it's not - the historical value of SW is IMO like 80% of its actual value - the story and characters are great but by today's standards, they are very much dated, but that doesn't make them worse, if anything, IMO it makes them better.
No offense, but you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic. That's great for an individual, but we as a species need to cast aside these feeling if we're ever going to move forward.
It does pertain to the topic seeing as how Ady's work is like cybernetics. They're enhancements. The only thing that is dated about STAR WARS is it's dialogue and some of the visual effects and nothing more. The way in which GL tells his story is no different than any other great film (more specifically film series) does. His methods go back to way days of antiquity with myths from many cultures that still evoke the same emotion that they did back then.
Harmy said:
Well, again, you take one bit of a good post and ignore the rest - he compared Ady's work to modernising a classic work of art like Mona Lisa to today's standards of beauty, which I think is a perfect analogy - it could be a fun little experiment but it sure as hell shouldn't be considered the new definitive version of Mona Lisa.
I didn't respond because I agree with him for the most part. And plus this argument is rendered null and void because we all know the OUT will come to blu-ray eventually. Still doesn't detract from the fact that SW:R is better. Your argument is simply for historical and sentimental value. Let me put this in a more real world context. In 30-50 years cybernetics will advance to the point in which we can enhance our bodies and perhaps later on our actual brains. Many scientists believe that if there is other life in the cosmos that is advanced it could very well be a species of machines; The next step in evolution. Should we limit ourselves in achieving more just because this is the original body we were born with even though cybernetics can enhance our physical boundaries? I would fucking hope not.
rchdggr said:
Please do explain just how is that defecating on Ady's work?
Edit: Harmy beat me to it.
You pretty much compared his work to duckfacing. It was funny as fuck. What I said was more or less a joke so don't take it seriously.
Harmy said:
What the fuck now seriously! NOBO0DY IS DEFECATING ON ADY'S WORK, FOR FUCK'S SAKE! I think Ady's work is amazing in many respects, but I also think (as Ady himself and many others do) that it shouldn't replace the original and that it isn't necessarily better than the original.
And you say with one breath, that you're all for releasing the original version and that releasing the original version isn't really taht important, because "we" already have a better version. NO, you perhaps have a better version, for your own enjoyment but I don't - simple as that.
It was a joke. Calm your shit.
rchdggr said:
Frankly, I find the notion that (with all due respect to Adywan) a revised edition could/should be considered definitive while the original edition is still in existence both ridiculous AND scary.
"The background of Mona Lisa needs more HDR and her face doesn't really fit contemporary beauty standards. Needs more duckface too. Let's fix that. There, I fixed it. Now it's a lot better. This revision is the definitive version now. Enjoy."
What a nice way to defecate on Ady's work xD
Not to rain on your parade, but Episode VII will be in theaters on Dec. 18 2015; not christmas.
I had no problem DLing it Chrome.
TheBoost said:
Lord Haseo said:
lovelikewinter said:
I agree with Tyrphanax 100%. I just want the movies I saw as a kid. The one that made me beg my parents to dig my brother's old action figures out of the closet and let me have my own adventures. Had I been a little older, I would have begged my parents for a laserdisc player to see them in better quality than the old releases that sat on the shelves of my local mom and pop video store.
If Lucas would have just given us a choice, then most of the hard feelings would have gone away. He didn't for whatever reason. But now we have the chance to have a high quality release of the OOT. Something I though would never happen unless Lucas was dead.
Adywan's Star Wars is a nice variant, but not the Star Wars I and many more will look at the definitive version 20, 30, 100 years down the line.
I want the OUT on BluRay just as much as anyone of you. But let's not let nostalgia delude us. .. Just by that alone SW:R is superior regardless of popular opinion.
"let us not be deluded" "regardless of popular opinion" "empirically" "objectively"
The way you talk, I get this picture of a little kid with his dad's coffee mug playing 'teacher.'
It's cute.
Personal insults? How mature.
Harmy said:
1. I disagree - the droid adds to the menace and makes for a great visual.
2. It's more or less the same principle as with Han shooting first but in reverse, because Ben isn't supposed to be an unscrupulous scoundrel, he's supposed to be a wise Jedi master - in the original, Vader comes in with his saber already ignited, whereas in ANH:R, Vader ignites his sabre in reaction to Ben igniting it first, so Ben make the first gesture of aggression (and with Ben's character that's just wrong).
3. I disagree very strongly - the dinos are obvious CGI, whereas the Wolfman is just that, a Wolfman, real existing object.
4. Yes, we know Tarkin was blown up but you don't seem to understand, that editing isn't just about conveying the information clearly and in the right order - seeing Tarkin's face just before the explosion offers emotional pay-off to the viewer.
Yes, ESB:R will be 720p, but sourced from the shitty 2004 transfer - so I'll say it again: with a proper restoration, the OOT of course has the potential to be of much higher picture and audio quality than the current Blu-Rays (and by extention anything that uses them as a source, including the future Revisited projects, as well as my Despecialized Editions of course, which is a big part of the reason I would welcome an official restoration and don't consider the DeEd an adequate replacement of it either).
But either way, you somehow keep missing the point - all these things you responded to were the minor additional points in my post - the main point was here:
the OOT has great, oscar-winning visual effects, which, unlike modern CGI, have great historical value, so they are more fun to watch - for me anyway, so for me personally, the movie loses like half of its entertainment value just by having the original effects replaced by mundane CGI, but I already said that before. And of course, if you just watch it for the story, this argument gets weaker and some people would say that the CGI effect are more realistic and therfore better, but film-making is an art-form and in art, the technique used is just as important as the content - like, take an oil painting of a horse and a color photograph of a horse - they both show a horse and the photograph shows the horse more realistically, but does that mean, that the photo is better art?
And you completely ignored it.
1. Why would it be that in a galaxy which has technology light years ahead of us the use of a standard needle hooked up to an advanced droid?
2. Ben was a liar. All the nobility you are referring to was destroyed in ESB. Plus Ben doesn't have a story arch in the OT (nor really in the PT >_>) so its not a big deal. Would I prefer to have Vader ignite his lightsabre first? Of course seeing as how he's the villain, but it matters little. Plus how it was done in the OUT is fucking retarded. They spend a few minutes looking for each other and then they magically find each other and Vader has his lightsabre whipped out. That makes no fucking sense.
3. I prefer practical effects over CGI any day, but the wolfman looks too farfetched. If I had to pick one to remove I would remove the wolfman, but as far as I'm concerned both of those can be removed for all I care.
4. Seeing a shot of him for half a second before he blows up adds NOTHING to the story. The "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." line is quite sufficient.
5. No I haven't. I am a strong advocate of practical effects, but doesn't Ady use practical effects? Just re watch his version of The Battle Of Yavin. I know he will be doing some CG shots, but the majority of shots he's done are made practically. There are somethings practical effects can't do. Well I suppose we have to wait for the Sequel Trilogy to make that judgement. Also, I am not denouncing the OUT's effects for what they WERE, but its been 37 years since STAR WARS came out and what's mind blowing doesn't hold up ENTIRELY today. I know what ILM had to go through to give use these amazing effects, but updating is never a bad thing.
Harmy said:
Lord Haseo said:
Harmy said:
Yes and what I've been saying is, that I strongly disagree with the statement, that we have a better version. We have an alternate version - whether or not it's better is definitely not empirical - I would definitely enjoy watching the original version more than any other possible version, so I don't have a better version and I don't even have the normal version. And I'm sure a lot of people here would agree.
In what ways do you consider the OUT better? Why would it be so worth your time? And saying "because it's the original version" is not a suitable response.
Well, for one, it has no electric thingy on the interrogation droid's needle ;-)
But aside from that, the OOT has great, oscar-winning visual effects, which, unlike modern CGI, have great historical value, so they are more fun to watch - for me anyway, so for me personally, the movie loses like half of its entertainment value just by having the original effects replaced by mundane CGI, but I already said that before. And of course, if you just watch it for the story, this argument gets weaker and some people would say that the CGI effect are more realistic and therfore better, but film-making is an art-form and in art, the technique used is just as important as the content - like, take an oil painting of a horse and a color photograph of a horse - they both show a horse and the photograph shows the horse more realistically, but does that mean, that the photo is better art?
And then you also have the more invasive changes, like the addition of prequel music (I don't want to be reminded of the prequels, when I watch the OT - same reason I hate the changes like Anakin being replaced and Boba Fett being re-dubbed in the official SEs), the Ben's hut scene being re-cut (which is fun as an alternate version but it's at least disputable, which version is better in serving the story and pacing), then you have Ben igniting his lightsaber first, which to me is on the same level as Greedo shooting first. There were other things I didn't particularly like, which I don't remember - it's been years since I last saw Revisited.EDIT: I remebered a few: The shot of Tarkin removed before the DS explosion (which also doesn't look too great IMO) and then some of the bad official SE additions left over in ANH:R, like super-fake CGI dinosaurs and stormtroopers on Tatooine.
Oh, and with a proper restoration, the OOT of course has the potential to be of much higher picture and audio quality than the current Blu-Rays (not to mention DVDs, if we're comparing to Revisited specifically - since you said that in Revisited we already have a better version and the only version of Revisited we already have is standard def. DVD of course).
1. The torture droid is a bad idea when you have someone who is as intimidating as Darth Vader in the room.
2. Ben igniting his light sabre is a bad thing? More like a nitpick. It didn;t change the way the audience would see the character. Han shooting first was a part of his story arch.
3. The CGI dinosaurs are far better than the werewolf mask in the Cantina scene (in ANH:R it is in the background, but still not very noticeable)
4. So what the Tarkin shot was removed?? We still know he was blown the fuck up.
All your reasons seem to be based on your personal connection with the OUT. Which is understandable.
ESB:R will have a 720p MKV which doesn't differ a lot if any from a 1080p MKV. Also ANH:R HD will be released after ROTJ:R
Harmy said:
A) Because we're a bunch of nitpickers and with this level of dedication, it would take so long to "fix" any movie ever made and B) It didn't take six years to "fix" everything in ESB it took six years to alter a whole bunch of things and to fix a few others, which could be considered mistakes - just take the clip Adywan just uploaded - while it certainly looks great, out of like a hundred altered shots, there are very few, which could be considered fixes of some actual mistakes, the rest is just enhancing shots, which certainly weren't actual mistakes in the original.
But in comparison the ESB:R they sure do look like mistakes :D
And I mentioned that he did other things as well. Nice try.
SilverWook said:
Lord Haseo said:
lovelikewinter said:
I agree with Tyrphanax 100%. I just want the movies I saw as a kid. The one that made me beg my parents to dig my brother's old action figures out of the closet and let me have my own adventures. Had I been a little older, I would have begged my parents for a laserdisc player to see them in better quality than the old releases that sat on the shelves of my local mom and pop video store.
If Lucas would have just given us a choice, then most of the hard feelings would have gone away. He didn't for whatever reason. But now we have the chance to have a high quality release of the OOT. Something I though would never happen unless Lucas was dead.
Adywan's Star Wars is a nice variant, but not the Star Wars I and many more will look at the definitive version 20, 30, 100 years down the line.
I want the OUT on BluRay just as much as anyone of you. But let's not let nostalgia delude us. In editing the OUT is a disaster. HUNDREDS of mistakes per film and outdated technology which of course is charming, but loses it charm overtime as we grow out of adolescence. Now Ady is not only fixing errors, he is filling the imaginative gaps I filled in when watching these films as a child. Just by that alone SW:R is superior regardless of popular opinion.
I learned a lot about editing by studying the original Star Wars in college. Just counting the number of frames a shot lasted was educational. Therefore, I respectfully disagree.
Then why has it tooken Ady 6 years to attempt to fix everything in ESB? Aside from all the other things he's doing...
Simply fantastic.
Harmy said:
Yes and what I've been saying is, that I strongly disagree with the statement, that we have a better version. We have an alternate version - whether or not it's better is definitely not empirical - I would definitely enjoy watching the original version more than any other possible version, so I don't have a better version and I don't even have the normal version. And I'm sure a lot of people here would agree.
In what ways do you consider the OUT better? Why would it be so worth your time? And saying "because it's the original version" is not a suitable response.
Harmy said:
Oh, hang on, I though the bad idea was to make the needle all electric and stuff, that I think was a horrible idea. The presence of the needle in the original was f*cking genius - needles are scary as hell.
delete
Harmy said:
So? Citizen Kane was released in 1941 and it's still considered a great masterpiece. And by today's standards, the film is very slow but it would just be plain wrong to replace it with a different cut with faster pacing.
Plus, to me, the historical value of Star Wars and its original visual effects are good 50% of the entertainment factor of it. The story and characters are great but I think in reality, they are only a small part of what makes Star Wars a cinematic masterpiece.
I actually started working on the DeEd specifically to be able to show people who've never seen the movie, the original version, so as not to taint their 1st experience with an altered version or a low quality transfer - I actually remember a generic discussion about the morality of fanedits somewhere and I said, that I think making a making a fanedit is perfectly OK, as long as it's not being passed for the original and as long as the person watching has already seen the original - this, being a generic discussion, was of course taking into account, that a fan-edit can make the movie significantly worse, which I don't think Revisited has done by any means but there are some things in it, which I personally disagree with. And there can be some things in the original cut that you or I may personally not like but unlike any other version, it's still the original cut, which won all the Oscars and made the movie into a world-wide phenomenon.
I'm not saying the OUT is bad for fucks sake. Fuck, ANH and ESB are both on my top 5 favorite films of all time. The visuals are kind of dated, that is undeniable and in MOST ways ANH:R and ESB:R are superior and based on empiricism and should be considered the definitive versions. Do I still want the OUT on Blu-Ray? YES. Do the fans deserve the OUT on Blu-Ray? FUCK YES. My point was that we shouldn't be pissing our pants over a rumor when we have better versions. There is nothing else to discuss.
Harmy said:
And yes, you can fault him for doing his best with a bad idea - it was his decision whether to use that idea in the first place.
There is no conceivable way to remove it without removing the entire scene. And this wouldn't be an issue if it had never been in the OUT to begin with.
Tobar said:
Lord Haseo said:
"The story, music and characters were great, but the technology is dated." With SW:R the narrative, characters and music are still there, but the visuals have been updated. I don't see why this shouldn't be a replacement from an objective standpoint.
Because Revisited does more than just update the visuals and fix continuity errors. It introduced new music(Duel of the Fates), re-edited scenes into a different order(Ben's hut) and made other questionable changes like the laser needle.
I love Revisited and can't wait for ESB:R myself but they will never supplant the OUT. Why? Because it's not just a new coat of paint, it's a different car altogether.
Duel of the fates was never in ANH:R. "Obi-wan Vs Anakin" and "Battle of The Heroes" was though. And the mind probe was a bad idea in the first place. You can't fault him for doing his best with a bad idea.
Harmy said:
Lord Haseo said:
lovelikewinter said:
I agree with Tyrphanax 100%. I just want the movies I saw as a kid. The one that made me beg my parents to dig my brother's old action figures out of the closet and let me have my own adventures. Had I been a little older, I would have begged my parents for a laserdisc player to see them in better quality than the old releases that sat on the shelves of my local mom and pop video store.
If Lucas would have just given us a choice, then most of the hard feelings would have gone away. He didn't for whatever reason. But now we have the chance to have a high quality release of the OOT. Something I though would never happen unless Lucas was dead.
Adywan's Star Wars is a nice variant, but not the Star Wars I and many more will look at the definitive version 20, 30, 100 years down the line.
I want the OUT on BluRay just as much as anyone of you. But let's not let nostalgia delude us. In editing the OUT is a disaster. HUNDREDS of mistakes per film and outdated technology which of course is charming, but loses it charm overtime as we grow out of adolescence. Now Ady is not only fixing errors, he is filling the imaginative gaps I filled in when watching these films as a child. Just by that alone SW:R is superior regardless of popular opinion.
LOL, the original Star Wars won a friggin' Oscar for best editing! Every movie ever made has little continuity errors but that doesn't make them editing disasters. And the effects were the groundbreaking peak of the technology of its time and sure, they are a little dated but that also doesn't mean that the movie is bad because of it - I mean, Alien has dated effects, 2001 has dated effects, hell, even newer movies like Jurassic Park or even Lord of the Rings have some very dated effects - should they be updated with the latest technology every ten years?
I mean, I have absolutely nothing against Revisited and I enjoy it for what it is - a good alternative version of a classic movie but I don't think it should be a replacement.
SW was released in 1977 and ESB was released in 1980 and ROTJ was released in 1983. I mean come one its been over 30 years and the OUT (other than the sets) don't stand up til this day and age when CGI is getting really realistic looking. I mean even up until ROTJ there are big boxes around Tie-Fighters and X-Wings in space. What is exceptional back in the days of antiquity isn't whats necessarily as acceptable as what is acceptable today. That's where Ady comes in. Whenever I watch any of the OT films I am constantly pointing out errors and outdated technology whilst watching it and for a perfectionist like me that really bothers me. If I were to show someone SW for the first time I'd have the most seamless experience it could possibly be. I wouldn't want someone to say something "The story, music and characters were great, but the technology is dated." With SW:R the narrative, characters and music are still there, but the visuals have been updated. I don't see why this shouldn't be a replacement from an objective standpoint.
darklordoftech said:
Tyrphanax said: On a larger scale, it's also about calling attention to the revisionist history thing. If Lucas wants to edit his films with every new release, he has that right, but what he doesn't have the right to do is to erase a piece of what has become cinematic and cultural history, and he has done this by making the once Special Editions into the now Only Editions and refusing to entertain the idea of releasing the un-specialized versions that made Star Wars such a part of our global culture. This is a much broader issue than just fans of Star Wars who want to see the movies like they saw them as children; in fact, there are several people who post here that aren't necessarily fans of Star Wars, but who disagree with Lucas' willful destruction of cinematic and cultural history, even Lucas himself is against it except when it comes to his own films.
Part of the problem might be that we're still yelling at someone who's not in control anymore. At this point, it's Disney who's being revisionist.
Be that is it may the OUT should have been on Blu-Ray from the very beginning. GL's own pride and arrogance once again had disconnected him from what his fans wanted.
lovelikewinter said:
I agree with Tyrphanax 100%. I just want the movies I saw as a kid. The one that made me beg my parents to dig my brother's old action figures out of the closet and let me have my own adventures. Had I been a little older, I would have begged my parents for a laserdisc player to see them in better quality than the old releases that sat on the shelves of my local mom and pop video store.
If Lucas would have just given us a choice, then most of the hard feelings would have gone away. He didn't for whatever reason. But now we have the chance to have a high quality release of the OOT. Something I though would never happen unless Lucas was dead.
Adywan's Star Wars is a nice variant, but not the Star Wars I and many more will look at the definitive version 20, 30, 100 years down the line.
I want the OUT on BluRay just as much as anyone of you. But let's not let nostalgia delude us. In editing the OUT is a disaster. HUNDREDS of mistakes per film and outdated technology which of course is charming, but loses it charm overtime as we grow out of adolescence. Now Ady is not only fixing errors, he is filling the imaginative gaps I filled in when watching these films as a child. Just by that alone SW:R is superior regardless of popular opinion.
