Lord Haseo

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:

Which would have been way easier with both of the alternatives. Not as entertaining but more logical due to Vader’s monumental advantage in terms of his command of The Force. But that didn’t happen so the fight scene could take place and that Luke can have the bomb dropped on him. I repeat again WHO CARES?

Because the first two hours of Empire all built up to that moment. It’s not about “nitpicking” or “who cares?” or “it’s just a movie”. It’s about the first 2 hours MATCHING with the last 15 minutes.

MATCHING. CONSISTENT. MATCHING. CONSISTENT.

Everything in Empire Strikes Back built to that climax. There is no inconsistency. Whatever nitpicks you can find in that script (or any other good one, for example) are most likely irrelevant because of how harmoniously everything was designed to work together as a story.

Almost nothing in TFA, however, builds towards Rey beating Kylo’s ass. Even in the same final climactic scene, it is demonstrated that Kylo’s force powers are exponentially more powerful than Rey’s. Then suddenly, for no reason, he forgets he has those abilities.

There’s still nothing that physically held back Vader from Force Choking out Luke and he doesn’t because the plot requires him not to even though if that would make Vader’s job easier. And I’m supposed to be fine with that…

Kylo “forgets” to use his powers against Rey because the plot requires him not to even though it would make his job easier. And now suddenly that type of thing is a tragedy.

That hypocrisy though.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
Because just like Luke she’s discovering The Force and she’s bound to be inconsistent. Like how Luke was able to blow up the Death Star in ANH (which is pretty much impossible) but seemed to have a bit of trouble getting his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB.

I’m sure the comparison is lost on you, but this is like arguing with a prequel fan.

Nice rebuttal lol

Alderaan said:

brash_stryker said:
Let’s ignore the fact i said nothing about killing for a moment. Are you saying then that any dark Jedi who WANTS to kill another Jedi, could just do it? Choke em right there? Doesn’t that render the Jedi’s stance of using the force only for “knowledge or defence, never for attack”, kind of stupid?

If she were able to shield him off with her force powers, then why didn’t she do it then? Because we needed to see Kylo and Finn fight 1 on 1 first?

Because just like Luke she’s discovering The Force and she’s bound to be inconsistent. Like how Luke was able to blow up the Death Star in ANH (which is pretty much impossible) but seemed to have a bit of trouble getting his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB.

Alderaan said:

His only desire was to put Luke in the freezing chamber and put him to sleep.

Which would have been way easier with both of the alternatives. Not as entertaining but more logical due to Vader’s monumental advantage in terms of his command of The Force. But that didn’t happen so the fight scene could take place and that Luke can have the bomb dropped on him. I repeat again WHO CARES?

Alderaan said:
It’s even dumber because this would have been very easy to fix. All they had to do was cutout the last 20 seconds of the fight when Rey beats his ass. As soon as Rey channels the force and fights off Kylo for just and instant, to momentarily save herself, the planet could have collapsed and separated the two of them, saving Rey and her companions in the process.

Why? So people can bitch more about conveniences in TFA? I’ll pass on that.

Alderaan said:

brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the fight pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.

Vader never wanted to kill Luke because he was Vader’s son.

brash_stryker said:
if Vader had just choked him to the point of UNCONSCIOUSNESS

Lord have mercy lol

brash_stryker said:
Think about the OT. It was established early in ANH that Vader could choke people to death. And yet Vader never ONCE tried it against Luke. Would have ended the right pretty quick wouldn’t it, if Vader had just choked him to the point of unconsciousness? Well it’s pretty obvious to me that Vader couldn’t because of how strong Luke was in the force. That’s what sets the Jedi apart from the normal people in this universe, otherwise the logic of it would all fall apart.

Someone else brought this up and it’s a great point. Also Vader could have simply picked Luke up with the force, placed him in the Carbonite chamber, held him down with the force and hit the switch but just like Ren he “forgot” he could do that. And Vader is a MASTER of the Dark Side; Kylo Ren even being a Dark Side Adept is up for serious debate.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:

Alderaan said:
I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boring

This one doesn’t want to be saved.

TV’s Frink said:

I think whomever is doing those parody Twitter accounts is also writing Alderaan’s posts.

You only quoted half of a conditional statement, and deleted the other half because it didn’t conform to your view. Intellectually dishonest, which calls into question the intent behind your posts. Maybe you should re-examine your posting behavior.

Seeing as how we’ve already established the only way in which TFA can be considered a quasi carbon copy of ANH is if you omit details I didn’t think it was pertinent to actually attempt to talk about the film in detail. Because if we take them apart scene by scene and compare them WITH DETAIL it is obvious that the films while similar are pretty different. But you guys wouldn’t be interested in that…Just a memeish vague checklist is sufficient.

Alderaan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Alderaan said:

TV’s Frink said:
I’m not sure if you stayed awake during the whole film, or you just willfully ignore things that don’t support your positions. Are you claiming that Ren’s interrogation of Rey showed his virtually unlimited power?

His physical power ldo.

Not sure what “ldo” means, but he uses the Force. How is “physical power” relevant?

I’m honestly confused what you are trying to say.

Rey stood up to him mentally, and that’s fine. I actually liked that scene quite a bit in the film.

He froze Rey and knocked her out with an effortless wave of his hand. He telekinetically picked her up and flung her through the air into a tree.
He froze Poe Dameron in place and had him arrested. He stopped blaster bolts in mid air. He was not physically threatened in the entire film.

Did you see Rey throw up a Force Shield? Without it she’s as helpless as Poe who isn’t Force Sensitive

Alderaan said:
I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as it wasn’t boring

This one doesn’t want to be saved.

TV’s Frink said:

Did anyone post these yet?

https://twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en

https://twitter.com/verylonelyluke?lang=en

https://twitter.com/BadFatherHan?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

The only thing that pisses me off is that the Emo Kylo Ren bollocks is actually taken uber seriously.

TV’s Frink said:

My wife brought up an interesting question tonight - why does Ren say to Rey about Luke’s lightsaber, “That belongs to me”?

I think he says that to Finn. Would make more sense because he’s not Force Sensitive.

That_OT_Ruler said:

Lord Haseo said:

Sorry you felt that way and I hope you enjoy the film one day, but funny thing is that a decent amount of people were pissed when they left ESB due to having so many things left up in the air. Not saying TFA is on par but just wanted to note that.

Well thank you for being a good sport and not forcing me to change my viewpoints. 😃

It should’ve been explained at some point in the story.

For the sake of the plot should it have been told? No.

For the sake of the pacing should it have been told? Fuck no.

Most importantly the story of how Maz finds that lightsaber could be really interesting and I wouldn’t want to have the potential of that story to be squandered by a scene that would have been put in the movie just to stop people from complaining.

Bingowings said:

The plot is defined by the things that happen to the characters. The situations.
So a young restless person, living in a wilderness meets an older mentor figure and a separate possible love interest on a quest to deliver information to an underdog resistance movement. They enter a hub of illegal activity, a bar and get into trouble. A planet is destroyed by the antagonists with a super-weapon that becomes the final test for the plucky rebels. The main characters launch a rescue mission to save a female character being tortured by the antagonist for the information. The mentor is killed by the antagonist who has a close connection to him while the protagonist and his/her allies are unable to assist because of a large chasm obstacle. The weapon is destroyed but the principle antagonists have done damage and survived. The protagonist has been pointed onto a path where they will receive further instruction from another stronger tutor.
These are plot points.
The characters in TFA are new and interesting and played well and directed well but they are doing the same thing as the other characters in first film. It’s just too similar to be engaging to me.
Other plots could be used with these characters and set up two more films and be enjoying but new, that didn’t happen.
So while I wasn’t furious with the film as I was with TPM and while it’s a much better constructed film than any of the prequels I was indifferent to the finer qualities of the piece because the plot was just too familiar.

You’re still boiling down to it’s barest essentials and omit details. If you actually watch the film it feels completely different. A decent percentage of the similarities are reworked/repackaged to give a different feel to the film

That_OT_Ruler said:

TV’s Frink said:

The fact that we’re even having this discussion proves the point. If you want to complain about “contrived” situations in TFA, you have to admit similar contrivances in the OT…or you just aren’t being realistic because you have to bend yourself into a pretzel to deny it.

Well… not exactly, at least in my opinion. The problem with The Force Awakens for me, and I apologize, you’ll never convince me otherwise, is that it is a copy of A New Hope, in terms of story. It takes that story, mixes it up, adds things, but then doesn’t explain certain crucial elements of the remixed story. A New Hope actually went out of its way to make sure the audience understood everything that was going on and didn’t leave us with questions hanging, which is something The Force Awakens fails to do: explain.

I personally blame the rushed storytelling and absence of any kind of scene where someone explains what’s going on.

For one that’s partially what the opening crawl is about

One example is Maz saying, “That’s a story for another time.” after Han asks where she got it.

Do you really think it would have been appropriate to have a trivial conversation about a fucking lightsaber when your castle is being ransacked? Are you serious?

I know people say that it’s part of a trilogy and it will be explained, but I don’t buy it.

Sounds like the epitome of a personal problem because I personally don’t like to be spoonfed everything. I’d rather have a faster paced movie then to have everything over explained in the PT

The fact is, I’m basing my opinion on my viewing of the movie. I saw it in the theater and I left unsatisfied and with many questions left unanswered.

Sorry you felt that way and I hope you enjoy the film one day, but funny thing is that a decent amount of people were pissed when they left ESB due to having so many things left up in the air. Not saying TFA is on par but just wanted to note that.

CatBus said:

Nice, I got that same set at some weird used junk store for 5 bucks.

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

I found plenty in Rey for me to be emotionally invested in. Same for Finn.

shrug

I didn’t mean for it to come across like I wasn’t invested in them as characters, simply that the editing tended to thwart certain important moments. I would also list the moment when Finn and Rey have just left Jakku, a point in the film that was crying out for a quiet scene for character development. Instead the ship immediately starts to fall apart and it’s another distraction for the audience.

Yeah then we get more of Finn and Rey interacting. I see nothing wrong with that; they had good chemistry…as friends of course.

Bingowings said:

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked.

The things I like about the prequels are the basic plot points. Palpatine working two sides of a war to his advantage is a bit sophisticated for that sort of film.
All they had to do was write an original plot

Are you sure you want this? Are we sure we want this?

Me personally I want a nearly original plot with a couple of parallels to the OT but with that comes the chance that it will not feel enough like Star Wars which will most likely be the main complaint about Episodes VIII and IX.

Smoking Lizard said:

Lord Haseo said:

Are you implying that literally ALL heroic deeds are documented? Puh…lease.

No. I never said that and I never implied it.

Well seeing as how you can’t even accept Luke not telling anyone I had to ask.

Smoking Lizard said: But Luke most certainly could have.

If you object to the word “certainly” then put it this way: It is far more likely that Luke would have told everyone his father’s story than not.

If by “everyone” you mean Leia, Chewie, Han, C3P0, R2, Lando etc. then yes that’s the most likely outcome. It’s more likely than him not telling anyone or him telling everyone. We’ll just have to agree to disagree

Virtually every living historian agrees that Hitler committed suicide, but the only evidence we have is the testimony of a handful of witnesses. And that’s with those witnesses lying and trying to tell the world that Hitler did not commit suicide. It wasn’t until after Germany surrendered that the Nazis came clean.

You literally just killed your own argument. Witnesses are unreliable. Even if Luke made it public knowledge how would you know he’s telling the truth if you live in that Universe?

But you believe that Hitler committed suicide, DO YOU NOT?! If you personally believe that Hitler committed suicide, think about it, your “witnesses are unreliable” claim immediately falls apart.

I don’t know what I believe all I know is that he’s gone. It’s too muddied to even give an opinion. All I know is that if there’s no reliable witness, a mass sighting or at least photographs/video I’m going to look at any claim with incredulity

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I can understand why Kylo could dismiss such a baseless claim.

Baseless? Think about what you’re saying. Clearly Ren was a child once, right? Presumably a normal child. Logically, his mother Leia, his uncle Luke, his father Han, his droid C3PO, and perhaps even his father’s best friend Lando would have all told young Ren about Anakin’s redemption. It’s just common sense. So all his family members would tell him this and then you conclude that he would dismiss them as “baseless”?

Me and Darth Bane went to Las Vegas to buy some Skooma from Bender. That claim had as much merit as Luke/Leia/Han telling Ben that Vader redeemed himself. It’s a baseless claim because there is nothing that substantiate it. Whether it actually happened or not unless there is demonstrable evidence to prove/disprove a claim it’s baseless. End of story

“Search your feelings, Luke, you know it to be true.”
So if Ren had any doubts that Luke was telling him the truth about Anakin, all Ren had to do was search his own feelings through the Force and then he’d know that what Luke was telling him was the truth.

If that conversation took place before he turned to the Dark Side you have a huge point. But if this conversation took place after he starting descending into the depths of lunacy and starting flirting with the Dark Side I don’t think he’d be able to tell right from wrong. We don’t know how much Snoke has brainwashed him.

hydrospanner said:

But he didn’t want to bring him to the Emperor without incident. He wanted to tell him he was his father and that he could destroy the Emperor so that they could rule the galaxy as father and son. How was he planning to do that when his son was frozen in carbonite?

What I meant by “without incident” is Luke trying to escape once he’s arrested. Carbonite would have ensured that wouldn’t happen.

hydrospanner said:

Why bother with the carbon freezing at all?

It would be the most effective way of bringing him to the Emperor without incident.

Instead of something believable we got some elaborate plan where Vader meets Luke alone and tries to get him in a carbon freezing chamber which fails and then they duel with lightsabers. How contrived.

Actually Luke and Vader started dueling and early into the duel Luke falls into the Carbonite chamber. The duel was a distraction to get him into the chamber. When that failed he continued the duel to test Luke’s abilities until he stopped playing around…

hydrospanner said:

Finn was pissed in the lightsaber duel as well so I don’t find it to be to unbelievable that he got a lucky hit in before Kylo demolished him.

Couldn’t Vader have just used his mastery of the force against Luke in Bespin… why bother dueling him with a lightsaber at all?

Good question. Darth Vader (even in the OT) is a Master of the Darkside and he could have easily choked Luke unconsciousness, threw him in the Carbonite Chamber and that should have been all she wrote. But the plot demanded that a duel take place so that Luke could be told who his father was. And I don’t see much wrong with that.

Smoking Lizard said:

Lord Haseo said:

This is all your interpretation but not even the scripts says that R2 piloted it.

Agree. It’s not in the scripts, but it is in the radio drama. So I suppose it depends on whether we’re confining the discussion to the films or to the original canon.

Even so, the explanation is plausible. It’s perfectly plausible that R2 piloted the pod. So R2 landing so close to Obi Wan is not a “eye roll” moment like the crashed TIE fighter is.

Why? Sure, there were probably other sandcrawlers, but the Jawas logically broke up the territory into different patrol zones. “You guys search west of the dragon bones, we’ll search the east side. We’ll meet up at lunchtime.” Again, in no way does this even stretch the imagination. It’s a perfectly reasonable explanation.

…something like that isn’t even something common sense can account for.

Good God…how not? Now I think you’re just being coy. It’s absolutely 100% plausible that the Jawas in a mechanized transport could easily catch both R2 and C3PO, especially considering C3PO walks at 2 miles per hour and was walking on a wide open expanse of desert. I mean, come on.

I was actually talking about

[Smoking Lizard said:] there were probably other sandcrawlers, but the Jawas logically broke up the territory into different patrol zones

Sure, it’s a nitpick. That’s what the debate is about.

It is? I thought it was a debate over how the sort of absurd conveniences in TFA are also in ANH?

Yeah but plot conveniences don’t bother me that much because every film has them. Ironically one of my favorite films has them too.

Which of course implies that he made the fact that Darth Vader turned good again public knowledge.

Again, come on. For real? Are you really suggesting that Luke would have any reason at all to not make this public? Such a grand story, such grand evidence of how good triumphed over evil, such a grand story of how his own father was redeemed. And Luke would keep that private? Puh…lease.

It would serve no purpose to anyone but to Leia or his chosen apprentices as a shining example of how anyone can be redeemed. Not only that but it’s literally unprovable

If anything he would tell Leia and rest of the crew but no one else with the exception of his future students…

Again, why would he keep that private?! If someone does something heroic, why keep that private?! Do we keep the stories of our Medal of Honor war heroes private? Good God, no. No. We publicize them and celebrate and honor their heroism. This is just getting silly and argumentative.

Are you implying that literally ALL heroic deeds are documented? Puh…lease.

I think the photos and videos of Berlin being bombed to oblivion should be sufficient to sway anyone that the Nazis lost. Darth Vader betraying Palpatine is something that happened in an enclosed space and as only witnessed by 3 people. Terrible analogy.

It’s an absolute perfect analogy, if you just think about it. We accept history even though we weren’t there to witness it.

It’s a bad analogy because there is demonstrable evidence that the Nazis lost. However even in the SW universe there is not ONE shred of photographic or video evidence that Darth Vader betrayed Palpatine.

Virtually every living historian agrees that Hitler committed suicide, but the only evidence we have is the testimony of a handful of witnesses. And that’s with those witnesses lying and trying to tell the world that Hitler did not commit suicide. It wasn’t until after Germany surrendered that the Nazis came clean.

You literally just killed your own argument. Witnesses are unreliable. Even if Luke made it public knowledge how would you know he’s telling the truth if you live in that Universe?

Maybe I’m just too cynical but I can understand why Kylo could dismiss such a baseless claim. Now if Anakin comes in Force Spirit and tells Kylo he turned back to the light then you have a point.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

But he didn’t kick Vader’s ass. He didn’t overcome Vader’s force powers. There was nothing inconsistent in the original Star Wars film as far as the ending goes.

You’re missing the point. Luke blowing up the Death Star shouldn’t have happened. Rey beating Kylo Ren probably shouldn’t have happened too BUT there are at least two reasons which at least partially explain why she was even able to survive. Luke blowing up the Death Star happens just because he’s special just like Rey beat Kylo Ren because she’s special.

90% of the story was spent building up Luke’s character. He was just a farm boy nobody. He gets thrown into a wall in the Cantina. He gets blasted by the bot over and over again. He’s a whiner.

Then suddenly, he uses The Force for the first time, and he blocks the blaster bolts. Then he’s daring and brave and courageous rescuing Leia in the Death Star. Then he’s shooting down storm troopers. Then he’s blowing up TIE fighters aboard the Falcon.

Finally, at the end, he pilots his X-wing into the Death Star trench. He would have been killed by Vader had Han not come back and saved him. That bought Luke just enough time to get off his shot.

Sure they built Luke’s character up a bit but there as nothing that was shown in the film that showed he had the kind of potential to blow up the Death Star which was established to be a shot so hard targeting computers in a Universe where interstellar travel is possible wasn’t even accurate enough to blow the thing up. Especially seeing as how he’s never flown a X-Wing. Also Biggs can shut the hell up.

TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

Alderaan said:
The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star

All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

Oh my god, biggest plot hole of all in ANH. The training remote trains Jedi, which definitely shows Luke’s growth with the force (unlike Rey’s SUDDEN mastery)…but…wait for it…

HAN DOESN’T BELIEVE IN THE FORCE WHY WOULD HE HAVE A JEDI TRAINING DEVICE LUCA$H IS AN IDIOT

ANH thus proven to be worstest movie ever. Luckily JJ fixed it by having Finn throw the remote away.

Facts