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or you just aren’t being realistic because you have to bend yourself into a pretzel to deny it.
It’s fun to watch though.
Alderaan said:
The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star
All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.
Interesting idea, but I can’t recall any indication in the script or the novel that Artoo was piloting the pod.
Don’t know about the script or the novel
The Script has no mention of R2 piloting the Escape Pod. That Smoking Lizard’s rationalization.
That would be cool if it didn’t look like the escape pod was in freefall.
That’s the basic way space flight works. You propel yourself forward and then allow inertia to take you in the general direction you want to go. Then, when you approach your target, THEN you engage your navigation to fine tune your landing. It’s like allowing your car to coast to the stop sign instead of pressing the gas all the way to the sign and then hitting the brakes at the last second to stop. Conserves fuel. That’s obvious what the film is portraying there.
This is all your interpretation but not even the scripts says that R2 piloted it. Also if he piloted the escape pod why not go straight to Obi-Wan?
Why? Sure, there were probably other sandcrawlers, but the Jawas logically broke up the territory into different patrol zones. “You guys search west of the dragon bones, we’ll search the east side. We’ll meet up at lunchtime.” Again, in no way does this even stretch the imagination. It’s a perfectly reasonable explanation.
I only wish this was established anywhere. I mean my mind can go there but for the sake of the argument something like that isn’t even something common sense can account for.
R2D2 and C3P0 crash on Tatooine - R2 and C3P0 split up - Both are captured by the same Jawas - C3P0 and red Astromech are sold to Owen and Beru - Red Astromech blows up because convenience and R2 is then sold in it’s place…
And the red R2 unit getting picked first and how the two droids, as explained above, wound up on the same Sandcrawler are NOT consequential, because the movie would have wound up the same way either way.
Sure, it’s a nitpick. That’s what the debate is about.
Second, can you explain to me how these two observations of mine somehow suggest that I did not comprehend TFA? Because I see it the other way around – that because I comprehended TFA, I was able to make these observations.
So in 30 years Luke trained ZERO new Jedis? Ren somehow killed them ALL?!
It was blatantly said that Luke had an academy and everything went to shit. Then there’s a Force Flashback which shows the aftermath of the destruction.
Right. That’s exactly what I said in my observation. We’re supposed to believe that Ren killed ALL of the new Jedi that Luke trained over a 30 year period?! ALL of them?!
So I guess you’ve never heard of the Knights of Ren
Ren couldn’t even defeat Rey, an untrained Jedi, but he killed ALL of Luke’s Jedi? I mean, Luke had 30 years!
How many high school students does a high school teacher teach over 30 years? Granted, it probably it takes longer to train a new jedi than teach a high school kid, but still. Not to mention that once Luke trained his first batch of students, some of them would begin taking on students of their own. Come on. Overly convenient.
A lot but we don’t know when Luke went into hiding so unless he went into hiding the week before TFA takes place I don’t see a problem. The number of Jedi that could have been feasibly trained within two decades is less than considerably less than 200.
So Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader’s grandson? Kylo Ren, in private, “prays” to his grandfather to “show him the way” to resist the pull of the light side of the Force. Um, hello? Anakin Skywalker is probably the WORST person to ask for advice on how to resist the light side?
If Kylo Ren still idolizes Vader after what he did he either isn’t privy to the fact that Vader turned back to the light…
Luke most certainly would have told him!
I don’t deny that. I couldn’t see why he would omit that.
or he simply refuses to believe that such a thing would happen…
Why wouldn’t he? The Empire fell, yes? The Emperor is dead, yes? Surely there has to be an explanation.
Luke and The Rebellion
In fact, it would probably be a basic lesson in all the elementary schools in the galaxy. Every kid would learn the history of how the Empire was defeated,
Which of course implies that he made the fact that Darth Vader turned good again public knowledge. If anything he would tell Leia and rest of the crew but no one else with the exception of his future students…
just like how you and I learned how the Allies defeated the Nazis. Were we there to witness it? No. Do we believe it happened? Yes.
I think the photos and videos of Berlin being bombed to oblivion should be sufficient to sway anyone that the Nazis lost. Darth Vader betraying Palpatine is something that happened in an enclosed space and as only witnessed by 3 people. Terrible analogy.
When Darth Vader turned to the light 2/3 of the people there died. If Luke didn’t tell anyone it would die with him.
It’s ridiculous.
Depends on the reason to be honest
Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight.
This character is not a badass, he is just posing as one. A dark lord of the Sith wannabe.
But good Lord does have have the temperament for one especially now that he’s fully given himself to the darkside.
His progression is what I’m looking the most forward too in the sequels.
Alderaan said:
Skeptic: “How can Kylo possibly lose to these people?”
these people
Rey…Kylo Ren lost to REY. He swatted Finn out of the way like a fly and now that fly needs a new spine. The only reason people even remotely think Finn “held his ground” is because he got a lucky hit even though Kylo Ren dodged and parried everything Finn threw at him WITH EASE and controlled 96 percent of the fight. But that’s fine because it’s an indication of the time we live in. Everyone only reads the headline but not the article.
Lord Haseo said:
Han is kind of like Obi-Wan. He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory. Obi-Wan told us about how Vader and the Empire destroyed the Jedi Knights and Han told us about how Luke’s Academy ended up going to shit.She could fly Han’s ship better than he could. She could repair it faster and better than he could.
Except for when she nearly got them all killed in the beginning. No, that never happened at all.
Han didn’t mentor her in anything.
I don’t remember me saying that. I remember saying
Lord Haseo said:
He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory
There was no chemistry, because Han didn’t have a role in the film
There was hardly any chemistry because the film is fast paced so there was hardly any time to develop anything that would effect most people. Even myself
He showed up so you could go “oh there’s Han Solo, I love that guy!”
Although I don’t see this as entirely the case, so what?
There was a moment where Han asked Rey to join his crew, and I thought that was a good scene between them, but it got squashed by her refusal.
It would have been so much more effective if her character had wanted to get off Jakku,
So I guess those markings on her wall don’t mean shitall. The only reason she declined was obviously because of her family
and a backstory of her loneliness had been played up leading to that moment
They could have done more with this but you still get the impression that she’s very lonely. That’s the impression I got from the “A day in the life of Rey” scenes
and then she accepted Han’s offer. That would have created a far more significant bond between the two of
them.
Not by much but it would help their growing bond but it does create a problem…for the nitpickers at least. If Rey were to say yes people would complain about how she just forgot about her family.
Lord Haseo said:
Kylo Ren masquerades as a badass and even though he has shown great potential the truth is is that he hasn’t completed his training and compared to any Lord of The Sith he is Bantha Poodoo. So him not being as powerful as our first impressions is part of the reason as to why he’s complexIf Kylo were masquerading as a badass (masquerading being the key word) then he would just be a wuss playing cosplay in his outfit. The fact that he did the powerful things he did in the first 90% of the movie means that he wasn’t masquerading. He was actually that powerful by definition.
If he’s already enough of a badass to freeze someone in mid-air with his mind at will
We’ve never seen him use Stasis against another Force Wielder. Also before you say anything Rey wasn’t calling upon The Force when he was taken by Ren
or stop blaster bolts in mid-air at will
Strong ability but we don’t know the origins (or even the name) of the technique so it’s impossible to say with absolute certainty how advanced a Force wielder would have to be to do learn such a technique
or telekinetically fling people through the air at will,
Rey didn’t have up a Force Barrier so who knows how strong Kylo’s Force Pushes are.
Kylo pushing Rey with the force is child’s play in comparison to when Darth Vader and Sidious crashed Twi’Lek freighters with the force. Or when Darth Bane leveled the Rakatan Temple with a force wave. It’s unfair as fuck to put Kylo as the same league as those three.
then you would assume “complete his training” would give him some powers even greater than those, not just I fully exhelp him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it.
I assume completing his training means that he can break through almost any Force Barrier, I would expect him to be able to freeze multiple blaster bolts. I expect him not to only showcase Force Lightning but for him to have proficiency like Count Dooku (who’s Force Lightining is not on par with Sidious, Bane, Krayt or Plagueis) who can kill instantly with it. Pretty much I expect him to be on the level of a Darkside Adept… I guess a good example could be Maul. Then in Episode IX he can be on par with Vader, Revan or Malgus.
I fully exhelp him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it
Maybe that argument will stick if there’s a scene in which he forgets to use a Force Power anytime that’s not 5 seconds after he killed his dad.
mostly because Han’s role in the film was very poorly thought out.
Han is kind of like Obi-Wan. He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory. Obi-Wan told us about how Vader and the Empire destroyed the Jedi Knights and Han told us about how Luke’s Academy ended up going to shit. I also like that this is coming from a non-force sensative
In TFA, he’s just inserted into the film for nostalgia reasons.
So what? He brought some laughs, Harrison gave a pretty good performance and TFA felt the most like Star Wars in the scenes Han was in.
Chewie’s reaction was the one I felt the most, but it lasted 1 second and then he disappeared off screen. What was Chewie doing while Rey and Finn fought Kylo?
The last time we saw the Wookie he shot Kylo Ren and preceded to blow away any Storm Trooper within sight. I would have liked to see more of Chewie going apeshit but what we got was sufficient.
Couldn’t they at least let you hug Leia in the denouement? Nope, I guess not, that spot had to be saved for
Rey and Leia, who had probably never met each other before that scene.
Yeah that’s bullshit. Even Leia touching his arm would have been something.
TV’s Frink said:
Yep. He’s a complex character, rather than the Vader clone some of you wanted (and would have complained about if you had gotten).You’re confusing inconsistent with complex.
Kylo Ren masquerades as a badass and even though he has shown great potential the truth is is that he hasn’t completed his training and compared to any Lord of The Sith he is Bantha Poodoo. So him not being as powerful as our first impressions is part of the reason as to why he’s complex
- R2 and C3P0 happen to land somewhere conveniently on the side of the planet where Luke is
R2 piloted the escape pod to the location Leia told him to go. The escape pod was navigable, unlike the TIE fighter Poe and Finn were in in TFA
That was never established in the film. Nice rationalization though.
I don’t want to sound argumentative, but basic inference is permitted in any movie. It’s perfectly logical that the escape pod should be able to be steered. Even the life boats on the Titanic could be steered. Life rafts can be steered. Considering an escape pod on a space ship would take its passengers into deep space, it only makes sense that someone should be able to steer it.
That would be cool if it didn’t look like the escape pod was in freefall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Mo9LHYPlA
- Then later when they’re separated they somehow conveniently meet up on the sandcrawler so they can be sold to Owen and Beru.
They didn’t conveniently “meet up.” The Jawas are scavengers. It’s what they do. All day long. Considering how slow C3PO walks and the rocky terrain, the two droids were not far apart. Not a stretch at all, considering how close the droids were to each other and considering the fact that C3PO actually called the Sandcrawler to him. Moreover this is an inconsequential convenience, like the one below. More storytelling than plot. The droids didn’t have to separate. That was just story telling.
Those aren’t the only Jawa’s on the planet that scavenge. The fact that parallel opposite directions and still end up on the SAME sandcrawler is convnient. There’s no way around that.
No way around it? I already explained it. Considering the fact the C3PO literally walks at a pace of about 2 miles per hour, he and R2 were likely at most 4 or 5 miles apart. So the Jawas are out, looking for scrap, and C3PO sees them in the distance and calls out to them. It’s the Jawas’ lucky day. After they pick up C3PO, they continue their route and, as luck would have it, they find R2, who wasn’t that far away. Damn, dude, that’s not that hard to imagine.
Still kind of a stretch that in all that time there were no other sandcrawler’s around.
Also I wouldn’t exactly call them inconsequential because those are things that push the plot forward.
No, they don’t. These two story elements do not push the plot forward at all. They are not necessary to push the plot along. Think about it: In the movie, the droids part ways, then get captured separately by the same Jawas. The other way Lucas could have done this is just not have the droids part ways and then they get caught together. The end result is the same – they’re in the same Sandcrawler. So yes, the “convenience” is inconsequential.
R2D2 and C3P0 crash on Tatooine - R2 and C3P0 split up - Both are captured by the same Jawas - C3P0 and red Astromech are sold to Owen and Beru - Red Astromech blows up because convenience and R2 is then sold in it’s place…
You know where I’m going with this. One plot convenience flows into another and by the time they end R2 has gone off to Obi-Wan and that’s where the movie really starts…in my opinion anyway
First, you did mean “wary,” right?
Yes
Second, can you explain to me how these two observations of mine somehow suggest that I did not comprehend TFA? Because I see it the other way around – that because I comprehended TFA, I was able to make these observations.
So in 30 years Luke trained ZERO new Jedis? Ren somehow killed them ALL?!
It was blatantly said that Luke had an academy and everything went to shit. Then there’s a Force Flashback which shows the aftermath of the destruction.
So Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader’s grandson? Kylo Ren, in private, “prays” to his grandfather to “show him the way” to resist the pull of the light side of the Force. Um, hello? Anakin Skywalker is probably the WORST person to ask for advice on how to resist the light side?
If Kylo Ren still idolizes Vader after what he did he either isn’t privy to the fact that Vader turned back to the light or he simply refuses to believe that such a thing would happen. How hasn’t this thought occurred to you?
I can see why people criticise it, as actually freezing a blaster bolt in mid air isn’t something we’ve seen even Vader do.
Maybe he didn’t know the ability. Maybe it’s an ancient Sith Technique that only Snoke knows.
It doesn’t take a whole lot rationalize it.
Hi-res would be nice.
Seriously. Also a version without the text and Han Solo cropped out would be nice as well.
Digitally change the lightsaber to make it Luke’s Lightsaber. The green one.
Looks like Kylo already has it
On a side note why couldn’t we see this flashback scene it it’s totality? I know they’ll do probably do a Thrawn Trilogy type novel but it would have been awesome fight to see.
Just a random thought:
I’ve seen people here and elsewhere mention Kylo Ren stopping the laser blast mid-air with the force as being different, or a little hard to swallow, or unusual, or whathaveyou. As if it’s some totally new use of the force that has no precedent and came out of left field. Not really outright complaints so much as just something that stood out and is taking some getting used to.
But I have to ask, do people not remember Darth Vader stopping Han Solo’s shots with the palms of his hands in ESB? It’s always been one of my favorite force uses as it just makes him seem completely unstoppable by mere mortals. Kylo’s display seems like a totally natural and logical extension/progression of that ability. And it was really cool too!
Kylo Ren stopping the blaster bolt is just a beefier version of Tutaminis. I don’t even understand why it’s complaint.
I’m reposting this here because it will be fun watching some of you try to explain it away or insist it’s not the same thing.
It isn’t the existence of those that bothers me, it’s the number and density of them at the beginning of TFA that I disliked. Had they been more spread out, and/or with a couple of them feeling less coincidental, it would have been far better.
STAR WARS had a lot of plot conveniences
- R2 and C3P0 happen to land somewhere conveniently on the side of the planet where Luke is
R2 piloted the escape pod to the location Leia told him to go. The escape pod was navigable, unlike the TIE fighter Poe and Finn were in in TFA
That was never established in the film. Nice rationalization though.
- Then later when they’re separated they somehow conveniently meet up on the sandcrawler so they can be sold to Owen and Beru.
They didn’t conveniently “meet up.” The Jawas are scavengers. It’s what they do. All day long. Considering how slow C3PO walks and the rocky terrain, the two droids were not far apart. Not a stretch at all, considering how close the droids were to each other and considering the fact that C3PO actually called the Sandcrawler to him. Moreover this is an inconsequential convenience, like the one below. More storytelling than plot. The droids didn’t have to separate. That was just story telling.
Those aren’t the only Jawa’s on the planet that scavenge. The fact that parallel opposite directions and still end up on the SAME sandcrawler is convnient. There’s no way around that.
- Then the other Astromech poops out conveniently so that R2 can be purchased
An inconsequential convenience, like the one above. More part of the story than the plot. The “convenience” could be quickly undone by the director or script writer simply telling the actor to buy R2 and not the red droid first and you wind up with the same result.
No, unlike the other one this one can be easily undone which can’t be said about the other “inconsequential convenience”. Also I wouldn’t exactly call them inconsequential because those are things that push the plot forward.
- Then Luke somehow conveniently finds part of Leia’s message while cleaning R2
Did this person actually watch ANH? R2 deliberately showed Luke an innocuous piece of the message to trick Luke into removing the restraining bolt from R2 so R2 could escape uncle Owen’s farm and continue his mission.
You got me on this but droids shouldn’t even be capable of shit like that
Also seeing as how you said
[Smoking Lizard said:]
So in 30 years Luke trained ZERO new Jedis? Ren somehow killed them ALL?!
and
[Smoking Lizard said:]
So Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader’s grandson? Kylo Ren, in private, “prays” to his grandfather to “show him the way” to resist the pull of the light side of the Force. Um, hello? Anakin Skywalker is probably the WORST person to ask for advice on how to resist the light side?
I’d be weary of calling anyone out on comprehending the film.
Guys, there is a difference between TFA and ANH, as far as the quality of the stories and plot are concerned.
We all know STAR WARS is the superior film on paper, but it still not prefect and suffers from some of the same issues TFA has.
I mean they can make Snoke 5 feet tall and the oversized hologram would still work they just don’t need to make him Yoda small.
Well, people have speculated that Snoke might be really small. Hence the oversized hologram.
So I guess this kinda makes sense.
I hope they don’t go this route because it would be weird to see another short force sensitive being flipping around. Also we don’t need anymore heavy handed OT callbacks. Any callbacks to the OT needs to be VERY subtle or the whole conversation of rehashing will be brought up again.
Is that Snoke on Ren’s back a la Luke and Yoda?
Yeah
It isn’t the existence of those that bothers me, it’s the number and density of them at the beginning of TFA that I disliked. Had they been more spread out, and/or with a couple of them feeling less coincidental, it would have been far better.
STAR WARS had a lot of plot conveniences
R2 and C3P0 happen to land somewhere conveniently on the side of the planet where Luke is
Then later when they’re separated they somehow conveniently meet up on the sandcrawler so they can be sold to Owen and Beru
Then the other Astromech poops out conveniently so that R2 can be purchased
Then Luke somehow conveniently finds part of Leia’s message while cleaning R2
and this doesn’t necessarily bother me because it’s just one of those things that has always been in Star Wars.
Slow frame rate is bad in TFA, good in OT, everyone knows that.
So are plot conveniences but be careful who you say that around.
TV’s Frink said:
My least favorite scene in ANH was when Vader kills Obi-Wan. That scene totally blows because it forced unnecessary emotion on us, because Obi dies with someone he’s only in one scene with.The scene wasn’t emotional because of Vader/Obi-Wan, it was emotional because of Luke/Obi-Wan. They had a lot of history together, on-screen, and Obi-Wan was Luke’s mentor. As soon as Vader strikes Obi-Wan down, which happens very quickly, there is a quick cut to Luke’s reaction. The director understood that the most important aspect of the scene was Luke’s reaction to his mentor’s death.
There were cutaway shots to Leia, Chew, and Rey, but they all failed for various reasons.
I can understand Finn and Rey’s reaction because they just met the man but Chewie’s and Leia’s are what make the scene to me. We’ve never seen Chewie let out such a tormented yell and Leia feeling Han’s death through The Force was especially heartfelt because this is probably the first time she touched The Force for anything other than tactical foresight in a decade or two. Also you might have well said “These reactions all failed because not OT” because you know that’s what you wanted to say.
My favorite part in ANH is when Han Solo dies.
I love that scene because we can see it coming from a mile away
Yeah like as soon as Harrison Ford was announced to be reprising his role. Stop that shit man.
I agree with the rest of your post though BUT even if they somehow got these two on screen for a scene or two I most likely would have been stone faced anyway. We’re not going to have any emotional connection for Han and Kylo’s ruined relationship unless it’s developed over a significant period of time.
The two lightsabre duels at the end were just stupid. They were there just for the sake of film having a lightsabre duel. And if they really had to make it like this, at least the dark side guy should kick both of their asses. And please spare your time, I really don’t want to hear dumb arguments such as: “but she practised with pole stick” or “he practised with stun baton”.
Ren was a poor villain
I wouldn’t go far but I’m sure the point of the scene is to show that Kylo isn’t as powerful as his walk makes him out to be.
Rey was simply lucky?
Pretty much just like Luke blowing up the Death Star. Both things were pretty much impossible but they both happened because it needed to be established that our main characters are uber special.
That is pretty much the opposite as it should be. Establishing a weak villain is a bullet in a knee for a film. If he kicked their asses and “sent” them back home training, it would at least add some motive to the story/characters.
Kylo being “weak” now is part of his character arc. If it makes you feel any better Snoke told Hux to get Kylo off Starkiller Base so his training could be completed. So don’t worry; Kylo is going to be badass but hopefully they don’t make him just like Vader in Episode VIII to appease people. If anything they need to do that in Episode IX