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John Doom said:
You mean Han? Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\
Tricking your father into believing you’ll come home and end this path of evil you’re going down only to stab him and tell him “Thank you” is pretty heinous dude. I don’t even think Vader would do something that vile. Much less to a family member.
John Doom said:
I’m not specifically questioning the reason why he couldn’t kill Finn or Rey, I’m not avoiding the fact he was injuried, which may have weakened him for the final duel. My point is only his ability throught the movie to be seen as a constant threat to the viewer. I already explained you why I don’t think he was, but I’m not going to force you to agree with me, so let’s just end this discussion already or we’re going to repeat our stances forever 😄
Well the viewer doesn’t matter because I’m speaking strictly for how Kylo Ren is a threat to the main characters all of which were at his mercy with the exception of Rey during the interrogation scene.
But there’s nothing I can say to sway you even a little bit.
We can’t be sure of this because we’ve never seen him chocking someone out in either ANH or TESB.
If someone can either choke you out or choke you to death by normal means why can’t The Force do that? And what about the other suggestion I made?
For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.
Vader used one hand early on in his duel against Luke in ESB
It depends on whether his attempt to push him into the freezer was a first test (so without using all of his abilities, just to test if he was at least able to overcome that one).
I don’t think it was a test. Him freezing Han just to test out whether Carbon Freezing was viable likely indicates that was his primary motive early on.
You mean Tarkin by Leia? Nobody harrass Vader in Star Wars, except for Motti(?) who nearly gets killed because of this. Every character either respect him or fear him.
Yes I mean Tarkin, Leia and Motti. Neither of them show no respect. In TFA Poe cracks a joke to him and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped, Hux warns him not to let his personal reasons interfere with the Supreme Leader’s wishes but is silenced when his life is threatened by Kylo and is scolded by Snoke when he is resisted by Rey. But that’s his Master; I don’t remember Vader every giving Palpatine any crap before he killed him. And just like with the few exceptions of those who don’t respect Vader everyone else either fears or respects Kylo Ren.
NeverarGreat said:
whereas even the Lucas prequels had some sort of message. The closest TFA got to a message was that good and evil will always exist.
Well what message did STAR WARS and TPM have? I’m excluding the other two movies in both trilogies because the ST isn’t even 2/3 of the way done yet.
Also a smaller message is that family is what you make of it; those around you and those you will meet in the future can be relied on more than the promises of those in the past.
I wouldn’t mind if he and Kylo attempted to convince Rey like Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ, but it has to be more than familial bonds, the promise of power, or seduction via anger.
But unlike Jedi I would rather Snoke not say “Well your friends are going to die” over and over again. They should try to seduce her by showing how the Dark Side will give her power and influence more than the Light Side could and how the Dark Side is free from restrictions while the path of the Jedi is restricting. If not I at least hope that’s how Ben Solo was turned.
- Ren to suffer a full psychotic break and go full-on schizo, causing him to hear and see things which aren’t there, talk to people others cannot see, etc. Really make him a dangerous, unpredictable villain who is potentially as much a threat to his allies as he is to his enemies.
I’ve talked to a couple people about this and I love this idea and if there’s anyone that he should be hearing it should be Han.
- A morally gray Resistance which isn’t apprehensive about torturing enemy captives, performing terrorist attacks on enemy-loyalist planets, etc.
And it would be nice to see this certain character butt heads with Leia as to why he thinks his methods are justified and maybe this person can also try to seize political power through brutal means.
John Doom said:
I’m talking about his ability to overall be seen as an actual threat throughout the movie. Please, I don’t want to repeat myself on this : (
Well I don’t like repeating myself either but as stated before he was a continued threat to our heroes to the end. His “ultimate” failing being the result of other factors. Other factors you have been actively avoiding. Other factors that have never been in play before a lightsaber duel in the film saga.
I mean if you have to severely injure your antagonist and nerf his abilities so that your protagonist can beat him doesn’t that show how much of a threat he is?
Excuse me, but saying this was Luke’s fault is pretty ridiculous. I’m not even sure we’ve seen the same movie.
Yes, the Walkers have to destroy the power generators, but the Rebels’ objective is not to defend them, but to protect them for as long as possible until the transports are away, because they know there’s nothing that can be done against the AT-AT and an entire Emperial fleet. Here’s from the script:CONTROLLER: General, there’s a fleet of Star Destroyers coming out of hyperspace in sector four.
RIEEKAN: Reroute all power to the energy shield. We’ve got to hold them till all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault.And then:
RIEEKAN: (into comlink) Launch patrols.
LEIA: (to an aide) Evacuate remaining ground staff.They were just buying time to escape, they knew there was no way to win that battle. Luke’s not responsible for any of this, look it up :\
Fair enough the the “Excuse me” threw the hell off lol
For all we know, controlling oneself when using the Force to choke someone may not be easy: he might’ve not been able to stop before killing Luke, but that’s just speculation, or it may take time to focus (every time we see the Force being used in TESB, it takes more than a few seconds to take effect).
Vader’s able to kill someone with Force Choke from thousands of miles away. You think that he wouldn’t master the subtelty of knocking someone out via Force Choking?
Also in Lords of The Sith he choked out a main Twi’Lek character at the end of the book and in Revenge of The Sith he Force Choked Padme to unconsciousness.
Exactly, that’s what I mean. He initially thought he was “not as strong as the Emperor thought”, then, when he exceeded his expectations, maybe started testing him to see if he could be of some use to him.
I think he was trying seeking to use him anyway though his abilities showcased in the early stages of the duel only furthered him wanting to test Luke. But he was still trying to freeze him at first and that could have been done by much simpler means. He also could have picked him up, held him down with The Force and froze him that way.
John Doom said:
When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux)
And as you said before, just like Vader in STAR WARS. Someone we both consider a great villain.
who can’t take control of the situation,
Fair enough I guess.
certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters. And I remember finding this boring, that’s it
^ I’m sure this pleasantly surprised you.
Kylo had a bleeding wound from being shot by Chewie, so that evened the odds a tad.
Among other things. At this point the film makers shouldn’t have put any extenuating circumstances if people were just going to ignore them.
As it pertains to your first choice teal ain’t bad. Familiar but different enough to feel fresh.
Eh…Orange is such an ugly color for a lightsaber. Blue, Green or Purple is boring but they are at least aesthetically pleasing. I’d rather Rey have a white bladed lightsaber like Ahsoka than to have her have an orange one.
You would think that more alien diversity would get nothing but praise…
Isn’t she too young to be Ben’s daughter? Granddaughter perhaps. That’s actually what I’m rooting for.
Yeah I meant Granddaughter. Thanks for bringing that up 😃
Since everyone has their own theories, hopes and whatnot I think this would be a good thread for everyone to say what they would like to happen in the rest of the ST. No matter how unlikely these wants are post them whether it be minuscule things or plot points.
My version of how I want things to play out will not be a happy one.
Episode VIII:
Episode IX:
Scott109 said:
1.) Grievous is an epic villain.
Most of what he does is run away in ROTS. Not exactly what I call “epic”
The lightsaber duels with Grievous are epic. Almost all of the characters
If you call a lightsaber duel with no choreography “epic” then sure…it was awe-inspiring
John Doom said:
You already know what I mean, though you disagree with me. No need to bore you repeating myself 😄
No, I kind of don’t. Kylo’s abilities with exception of being able to successfully pull information from Rey’s mind and his loss in the lightsaber duel were pretty consistent throughout the film. The latter failure being the result of numerous extenuating circumstances and without those in play his victory would have been an absolute certainty.
It’s not his fault. His duty was to slow down the emperials to let the other escape, and he did a good job.
I could have sworn his duty was to stop the Walkers from destroying the power generators…which is precisely what they do once the battle turns in the Empire’s favor.
Can Vader actually just choke people out?
Why wouldn’t he be able to when people can do a rear naked choke and knock someone out by more conventional means?
He didn’t want to actually hurt the Emperor’s prey and his potential weapon against him.
Knocking Luke unconscious wouldn’t have done a thing to him that beyond well…unconsciousness.
I meant pushing him into the freezer.
Oh well technically he still fell in but got out before it was too late.
EDIT: About Chocking-Vader, it may very well be that he was also testing Luke to see if he was skilled enough to help him against th Emperor (in fact he keeps questioning or admiring his skills), so he didn’t want to end the fight too soon.
That’s fine but at first he tried to freeze him and then after that plan fell apart he continued testing him. If he really wanted to freeze Luke initially he could have still choked him out and thrown him in the chamber.
BmB said:
It’s a fancier way of saying George cares and knows more about the source material than anyone in this thread.
If George had cared a bit about the source material The Force would still be a mystical energy field, Qui-Gon Jinn wouldn’t have been Obi-Wan’s master, Anakin wouldn’t have been a douchenozzel and Padme wouldn’t have died 30 seconds after child birth.
John Doom said:
That’s not the point I was trying to do. I’m saying they should’ve showed him this threatening since the beginning, because at that point his role as the main villain was ruined to my eyes.
What do you mean? The first scene he’s in he stops a blasterbolt mid air for a long time while having a conversation at the same time. Tutaminis is cool and all but that Force Ability even eclipses it completely.
Also a feat is a feat no matter how diminished someone is to your eyes. Especially when this feat is accomplished under duress.
-managing to “disarm” a Wampa;
Well I was mainly talking about in terms of lightsaber dueling and all matters of the Force but okay…and you’re right about that point.
-successfully leading an attack against AT-AT and using stratagems;
Though he successfully destroyed and AT-AT the rebellion still lost the battle.
-learning more about the Force (granted he didn’t learn how to fully control it);
Didn’t serve him that well other than not being frozen in Carbonite (which could have been avoided if Vader had just choked him out)
-not be tricked by Vader;
When did Vader try to trick him?
-not giving into fear;
You mean when facing Vader? If so then yes.
-keeping fighting against Vader (something Kershner himself stressed in the commentary for its importance);
Vader was toying with him for a majority of the duel and when he didn’t Luke got destroyed. He landed a lucky blow but was utterly decimated.
-being able to survive his fall
That’s really a giant plot convinced but can be attributed to the will of The Force but whatever lol
using his knowledge to call Leia for help;
Though it’s not established exactly how he’s able to do that it is a mighty impressive feat.
John Doom said:
That’s at the end of the movie, though :\
So? It’s just another reason why he’s pretty threatening in TFA. This feat being at the end kind of diminishes the claim that Kylo goes from being super imposing in the beginning of the film to being nothing more than a weakling in the end.
What’s a villain with decades of experience? A villains is a (sometimes switchable) type of character in a story, not some kind profession 😄
Well I think him being the merciless right hand of Sidious is a profession.
And yet he was able to not give into the darkside and get back, thus winning his fight, overcoming every obstacles. That’s what a hero is supposed to do.
He won the moral victory but lost in every other facet. And other than him refusing Vader’s offer what does he overcome in the actual film?
In short: Kylo can be a good villain character, but he should’ve not been the main villain. Giving a larger role to one of the other two candidates, could’ve improved TFA and potentially made it more original.
Well if they’re giving Kylo a Luke esque character arc in which he overcomes his limitations and becomes more powerful in the end it will make Kylo’s early stumbles all the worth it. I mean I think it would be outrageous to have another force sensitive take lead over Luke because he’s not a fully realized hero in ESB. But I don’t necessarily believe in this double standard between heroes and villains. TFA could have had another villain/s but it would need to allocate time away from Kylo (or even our heroes) in order to develop this other villain/s and seeing as how Kylo will eventually be the villain Vader would be proud of it doesn’t seem worth it. Plus since it’s pretty much an absolute certainty that the Knights of Ren will actually play a role in Episode VIII your wish could be kind of granted.
Well if you stop saying inane things then I will stop being a thorn. If you don’t like the movie that’s fine, but saying something like Han is useless is fallacious and I’m not just going to ignore something like that. Don’t like it? Well tough titty.
John Doom said:
We are Rey
Actually if the audience can relate to anyone moreso it’s Finn but that’s an entirely different conversation.
I don’t remember them actually being threated by him except for Poe in the beginning and Finn in the end.
And let’s not forget Rey in the Forest towards the middle of the film.
and trying to make Kylo a threat in the end was too late by then. It was boring :\
I think him rendering Finn’s spine useless was an effective way to make him a thread but okay.
That’s right: at that point, his role has become less important, so he doesn’t need to be an actual threat. The Emperor, who’s activily tricking them into fighting against each other, is the main villain, and his ways are the major threat to Luke’s life.
His role became slightly less important and none of that excuses him not acting more like a villain. A villain who has had decades of experience being one.
Luke doesn’t fail in ESB like you say, he fights hard to overcome his weakness and obstacles, learning about the Force and facing his evil dark side. He faces Vader and is nearly defeated, but he succeds in not giving up to the dark side to save his “moral integrity”. In the end, he wins his battle, even if it’s a bittersweet ending. So no, I don’t think he doesn’t work as a hero, I think he’s actually the perfect hero, since he’s constantly challanged.
Luke got impatient when Yoda was acting like an idiot which shows a lack of patience, Luke brings his weapons into the Dark Side cave when he was told he wouldn’t need them, he failed to lift the X-Wing out of the water due to his lack of belief, he left to face Vader without completing his training which resulted in the loss of his hand and almost in his capture.
I don’t necessarily think he doesn’t work as a hero either. Reason being is that everyone whether hero, villain or common folk goes through trials and tribulations before they reach their apex. Luke went through his and in ROTJ became a fully fledged Jedi Knight and in TFA Kylo Ren is going through his and as a result he will most likely become a great Dark Side warrior when it’s all said and done.
Vader’s objective wasn’t to defeat Luke, he was only trying to corner him, and Luke only manages to scratch his armor, no even wounding him.
Vader screams in agony or rage when hit. It was a glancing blow but it still effected him. And that doesn’t detract from the point that Luke shouldn’t have hit someone as skilled as Vader due to Vader’s overwhelming skill, him being completely unscathed and Luke’s lack of training in lightsaber dueling.
Kylo, on the other hand, was surely trying to kill Finn (not Rey, I get this), had enough knowledge of the Force to freeze him, push him, disarm him and kill him instantly, but nope. Supposing he was reckless as you suggested, it still makes him kind of a fake threat if he doesn’t fully fight once in the movie.
Well if you want to go there why did Vader not just choke out Luke and place him in the Carbonite chamber? The answer being because both scripts call for that not happening. At least in TFA it is shown that Kylo Ren is pompous so even when presented with a clear kill shot he drags the fight on; Vader doesn’t have such an excuse.
If you say so. He basically was the incarnation of everything a hero is supposed to be.
As Kylo is the incarnation of everything an aspiring villain (who has a bit of his old self in him) is supposed to be. Also I’m quite sure that at least in Episode VIII there will be no conflict in Kylo.
Han did a great many things in TFA such as getting Finn onto SKB and helping him take down the shields and he and Chewie blow up that giant whole which lead to SKB being destroyed. Luke was barely in the thing so to call him useless in unfair due to the 30 seconds of screen time the man got but I guess you can say Leia was pointless but she is what got the ball rolling by sending Poe to Jakku.
I don’t know why you keep on doing this to yourself.
BmB said:
What the two trilogies do in unison, is present a dualistic view of the force.
That’s a fancy way of saying George didn’t care about he source material which should have been adhered to when making the PT.
John Doom said:
-he can’t take control of the situation;Exactly what situation are you referring to.
Whenever he loses his mind, when can’t stand facing Ray or his father, when he needs to rely on his Master.
The only one of those that reflects on him not being able to control a situation is when he asked for guidance from Snoke.
Sure, but it doesn’t help that, together with everything else I said, makes him less and less of a threat.
To Rey maybe. But to Poe and Finn he’s a legitimate threat.
It’s enough already, but there’s also that (only?) other scene where they meet again before Snork and he looks amused to see him hopeless for his failure.
Yeah, Hux chose a time in which Snoke was present to say that Kylo Ren screwed up by calling off the search for BB-8.
Vader looks conflicted only in ROTJ, when the main villain is now the Emperor. Combined with everything above, this further makes kylo less of a threat.
But Vader is still a main villain. A villain who was the main baddie for 2/3 of the trilogy. That doesn’t diminish the fact that they both have conflict.
Never being able to see him scared was what made him, even if apparently, more menacing.
That’s good and all but he still seemed scared with the mask on when he was defeated by Luke.
I know this, but I think he should’ve been under his authority, which would make him responsible for the way her custody was set and handled. Or maybe not, maybe I’m wrong on that 😄 He did go insane after finding out she escaped.
Whether it was his fault or not he still would have probably flipped out.
Why do you keep saying Kylo has less experience? I know this, but it’s things like this that lessens his role as the main villain.
I keep on saying this is because people are trying to equate him to Vader when the character was literally designed NOT to be a fully realized villain. I’m pretty sure people didn’t say Luke didn’t/would never work as a hero because of his failures in ESB so people chastising Kylo is a bit hypocritical.
Finn was also a janitor on his first battle 😄
In the end, even if Finn was a trained soldier, he still should’ve not been able to even injury the same guy who was able to freeze Poe with a single hand. Call it being reckless, it further lessens his role as the main villian.
Well bringing it back to ESB Luke had absolutely no training in the art of lightsaber combat (which is completely separate from Force training) and was still able to land a strike on one of the best Duelists in Star Wars history. So Finn landing a hit on and injured, pompous and not fully trained Dark Side warrior isn’t a huge stretch.
It doesn’t matter, he just doesn’t work as the main villain. As I said, I’m ok with him the way he is, but somone else should’ve played the role of the main villain, someone who could be seen as an actual threat.
If so Luke didn’t work as a hero in ESB.
I forgot to mention that even Poe doesn’t get him seriously. I know, “Leia and Tarkin” and so on (we already discussed this one in another thread), but add this to everything I said above, and you get the picture.
Well thanks for making my rebuttal for me lol
John Doom said:
-he fails to retrieve vital informations from Poe;
No…he did get the information that the map is in a BB unit from Poe. I think you meant Rey and if so then you’re right.
-he can’t take control of the situation;
Exactly what situation are you referring to.
-he has to rely on his supposed Master;
Well he hasn’t completed his training so of course he would seek guidance when faced with failure.
-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;
HUX: Careful, Ren, that your personal interest does not interfere with orders from Leader Snoke.
KYLO REN: I want, that map. For your sake, I suggest you get it.
Hux doesn’t say shit after this.
-he’s deep inside conflicted;
So? Vader had conflict as well and unlike Vader when Kylo is presented with a chance to do something decent he chooses the darkness.
-he looks visibly scared for his failures;
I wonder how Vader looked underneath the mask when Luke defeated him. I’m sure he didn’t have a blank face. The only thing we see of Vader is his hand is stretched towards Luke…as if he’s asking for mercy.
-he doesn’t exort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;
Technically it was the Storm Troopers fault she escaped but whatever.
-he’s wounded by Chewie;
Yeah, he just killed his father. He was swept up in the moment and didn’t mind his surroundings. Something that Vader wouldn’t do but then again Vader has a shitload more experience and training than Kylo does.
-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;
Actually Finn was at the top of his class but that injury was due in part to the bow caster wound but more so to his arrogance. Within 8 seconds he could have killed Finn but chose to prolong the fight and in turn he was injured.
and if Kylo had not been so pompous in his abilities he would have fled and initiated a conflict when his abilities weren’t hampered.
I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcter’s life :\
Well considering that he’s not supposed to be a fully realized villain yet (Like Luke wasn’t supposed to be a fully realized hero in SW or ESB) he did surprisingly well especially given his lack of training and experience when compared to Vader.
Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉
My problem with it, is that this way we got no actual threat to the main characters, making TFA very boring to me. I would’ve not minded another villain beside him, an actual threat. Giving a more important role to that FO-commander-guy or Snorke, would’ve probably been enough to fix this.
I admit that’s a decent point and that’s why they should have had the Knights of Ren play a major role in the plot instead of just setting them up for future films. This way we can still have Kylo be the Anti Luke Skywalker.
But when I think of it is Kylo Ren really not a threat? I mean as it pertains to what he does to the main characters he sucked information out of Poe’s head which lead the First Order to know that the map was in BB-8, he captured Rey, utterly decimated Finn and dominated Rey for a majority of their duel. The latter two feats were done where his abilities were hampered due to a multitude of extenuating circumstances.
EDIT:
Also he kills Han in the cruelest way possible. Just thought I should throw that out there.
Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉
Episode VIII Predictions
The film will open with a battle occurring on an ice world.
The film will cross cut between Rey training with Luke and the other characters navigating an asteroid belt on the way to Cloud City.
Luke tells Rey she is too old to be trained.
Luke will say, “No, I am your father.”
Rey will battle Kylo Ren at the end.
Kylo Ren will cut off Rey’s arm.
Rey’s lightsaber will fall into the depths below.
This is really pushing the whole satire thing a bit too far…
And who says that Kylo must be a villain?
He’s more or less a villain in training. Literally.
The politics was exactly what gave the prequels depth.
You mean the illusion of depth? Also the politics are so badly written not only does it kill the pacing anyone with a brain in that universe would see after a while that Palpatine was behind everything even before ROTS.
Everyone shits on midichlorians but midichlorians are a more scientific aspect of the force.
There didn’t need to be a scientific aspect to The Force. The Force is just The Force.
Where the OT presents a purely mystical force.
And that’s the way it should have stayed.
The OT has clear cut black and white heroes and villains, the prequels subvert that so it’s difficult to know if anyone is good at all.
Other than Count Dooku who could you say this about?
By cutting straight to the action and only action forever, TFA makes itself extremely shallow. Kylo Ren literally wants to be evil? Puh-lease, even saturday morning cartoon villains have more depth than that.
Not only is he a good person literally willing himself to be evil he is also hell bent on furthering the legacy of his Grandfather. Also there’s more to a character’s depth than his/her motivations.
It’s like a five year olds conception of what grey morality is, just switch black and white around, that’s interesting right? No.
That’s not grey morality at all. If Kylo Ren were doing all this to destroy all Dark Siders in the galaxy then it would be grey. I wouldn’t exactly know what to call what Kylo is doing but it isn’t grey.
Scott109 said:
In A New Hope, Vader is a former pupil of Obi-Wan’s who turned to evil and hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights, is a great and powerful warrior, is a religious mystic, and is a TIE-Fighter pilot.Darth Vader is a traitor, a warrior, a mystic, a pilot, and a cyborg. That is hardly one dimensional.
What in the hell does most of that have to do with distinguishable personality traits that makes someone a 3 dimensional character or villain? Other than being evil Darth Vader in STAR WARS exhibits no other personality traits and that makes him one dimensional.
Imagine if Darth Vader took off his mask, spoke of his struggle between the light and the dark sides of the Force, and struggled to kill Obi-Wan, who was a father figure to him. He would have been a much weaker villain. Villains should not have to struggle to commit villainy. Villains should be naturally villainous.
The difference is that Vader at that point had 19 years of being a Sith Lord so of course he wouldn’t have the same conflict. Kylo on the other hand hasn’t even completed his training and has only a few years as a Dark Sider; it’s unfair to compare the two. Now if Kylo Ren shows this same kind of behavior once he fully immerses himself in the Dark Side, completes his training and has more experience then you’ll have a point. Also killing a father figure who you despise and who maimed you is different than killing your actual father who you have mixed feelings about.
I thought that this quote would be a nice addition
“The saber itself is a big metaphor for the character – it’s unpolished and unfinished, and you may or may not get the sense that it may not work at any given moment.”- Adam Driver
EDIT:
Scott109 said:
The scene in which Kylo Ren struggles to murder Han Solo was supposed to be poignant. In reality, it was pathetic.
I can say the same of the scene in which Anakin cuts off Mace’s hand and all.