Lord Haseo

It wouldn’t have to be pointed out so much if it wasn’t ignored so often. People act as if Kylo was in tip top shape when he went into the battle and criticize him even though we have never seen him in a serious lightsaber in neutral territory with an opposing Force Wielder. I know we haven’t had a lightsaber duel where someone has been injured pre fight before but damn. People also like to ignore the fact that he hasn’t completed any of his training and probably hasn’t been in a lightsaber duel in years.

Scott109 said:
Do you expect me to believe that Kylo Ren destroyed the New Jedi Order but lost to a girl with no lightsaber training?

“If I ignore it maybe it’ll go away”

3. And it took him forever to do it. What a wimpy villain! I laughed during that scene. It was supposed to be poignant, but it was only pathetic.

Maybe because there’s still good in him. Maybe because he was literally designed to have conflict.

And you laughed? Sure you did.

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain,” Abrams said. “And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”- JJ Abrams

Not liking the character is fine but you don’t even understand the character.

And why would Kylo Ren seek to murder his father in the first place?

Because it was a test to see how commited he was to The Dark Side

Instead, in The Force Awakens Han Solo is still a smuggler who learned absolutely nothing from his adventures in the Original Trilogy.

Learned nothing? He accepts the Force as a fact, he gets mad at Finn when he is told that he didn’t know how to shut down the shields on SKB which indicates he still cares for the Galaxy at large and he even risks his life and dies to bring his son back home. He’s pretty much the same Han from ROTJ but older.

Also he went back to smuggling because it was the only thing he was good at and to seperate himself from Leia. Also even before he went back to being a scoundrel he tried to start a legitimate business.

Dek Rollins said:

Lord Haseo said:

Dek Rollins said:

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

A saber lock is still fighting as both people are trying to gain leverage. They’re still technically fighting.

I get that, I was just saying that the facts he stated about Vader’s movements were true.

I was actually referring to the saber lock but he was right about the part in which Vader lowered his blade when he hurled another object at Luke.

BmB said:

Lord Haseo said:
Well if Vader could manipulate inanimate objects then it is logical to conclude that he could do it to a living being. There’s nothing much that differentiates them; it’s just mass you know.

“Luminous beings are we.”

“Luminous beings” still have mass and it doesn’t negate the effect other forces have on it.

Dek Rollins said:

He was saying that Vader wasn’t actively fighting when he threw the objects at luke, and he’s correct. Vader was either simply holding his saber down, or was holding a block.

A saber lock is still fighting as both people are trying to gain leverage. They’re still technically fighting.

BmB said:
The first time we see the force being used to telekinetically manipulate living beings is Maul’s force push at the end of TPM. In traditional eastern chi theory it is very difficult to overcome to chi of another being to use chi on them as such. Since the force is based on these teachings I don’t think it’s unreasonable to extend the same principle. Lifting other people and throwing them about is an EU-only phenomena. Even Maul was only able to throw Obi-Wan off-balance. Force choke is fairly low level of invasion, only manipulating the throat.

Well if Vader could manipulate inanimate objects then it is logical to conclude that he could do it to a living being. There’s nothing much that differentiates them; it’s just mass you know.

He wasn’t fighting. He even lowered his lightsabre to focus on throwing things at Luke. They weren’t even within striking distance. The first throw was during a clash where he only had to focus on keep Luke’s sabre down. It’s clearly something he had to divert his attention to.

Sure about that?

BmB said:

Lord Haseo said:
It’s pretty goddamn unreasonable to believe that you can choke someone to death with The Force (even over massive distances) but choke someone to unconsciousness. Also when choking someone they are knocked out and you have to continue the choking before they eventually die.

Choking someone is incredibly unsafe. If you do not have intent to harm you should not choke someone because even if it’s just for “knocking them out” there’s a chance the windpipe will collapse entirely, killing them. That’d look real good on Vader’s monthly review wouldn’t it? No, it makes much more sense for him not to choke Luke at all if he wants him alive.

While choking is unsafe the odds are due to his skill with Force Choke he wouldn’t have crushed the windpipe. Maybe Anakin in ROTS would but not this version of Darth Vader.

What about the other solution though? Why couldn’t Vader just pick him up with The Force, hold him down in the Carbonite chamber and turn the thing on?

Regardless, is he able to use choke while fighting?

Seeing as how he was able to fight while throwing stuff at Luke…yeah I think he would be able to do that.

As it pertains to the whole choking thing…

John Doom said:

Maybe they could’ve shown us Kylo pouring one of his victims’ ashes on the table. Von Sydow’s character’s for example, made recognizable by one specific detail.

Damn that would have been nice. Hopefully they’ll do something like that in VIII.

John Doom said:

Lord Haseo said:

Well it seems as though the place in which Kylo Ren puts his helmet on when interrogating Rey has a bit more to it than one would initially think.

That’s too bad it wasn’t explained or suggested in the movie itself. It would’ve been a nice addition.

I agree though I don’t know how they could have fed that tidbit to the audience without having it feel forced.

I’m not even sure which is more disturbing…

MalàStrana said:

A dumb vilain, but a dangerous one. I mean, he kills two old unarmed guys, one Starship computer and one interrogation chair. A great SW vilain, no doubt about that 😄

And Vader in STAR WARS kills one guy in the beginning who can’t defend himself due to him being totally surrounded, an old guy who literally throws his life away and a couple of rebel pilots who literally couldn’t evade his fire due to them being amendment about completing their mission. Makes Kylo look like shit really…

At least Kylo defeated Finn in a fair duel while he was bleeding out from an injury that should have rendered him completely useless but hey…

joefavs said:

Anyone else think the blu-ray looks a little blue? It’s nowhere near as off as the official OT discs, but it’s definitely noticeable in a good amount of scenes. I’d compare it to the way the Mad Max: Fury Road BD skewed a bit red. Other than that, I’m pretty pleased with the quality.

Well that’s what color corrections are for 😃

Well it seems as though the place in which Kylo Ren puts his helmet on when interrogating Rey has a bit more to it than one would initially think.

John Doom said:
He could’ve run away, or could’ve been killed in episode II or III, the same thing we were saying on Kylo, right? Not so specifically predictable as you say.

Even so the number of people who thought Maul was going to lose is likely exponentially higher than the people who thought Rey was going to win her first duel with Kylo.

John Doom said:
He didn’t say “If you’re wrong you’re fucked” either, so it’s the same.

He didn’t really need to. “This had better work” or even your parents saying something like “You better not act up in school” is what we call an implied threat.

You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?

For one I said it that he would beat Maul and secondly, it’s a prequel so there’s a certain level of predictability that comes along with it. Furthermore Maul running away is pretty much accepting defeat. No?

John Doom said:
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.

Well he didn’t say “Well if you’re wrong we’re fucked” so if taken at face value it’s a threat. And that’s how I’m taking it because there is no bias or interpretation involved.

We all knew Rey would’ve defeated Kylo

No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting. Part of the reason a lot of people were pissed at Rey winning is because they thought the duel would play out like Luke vs Vader on Bespin.

If you say so, ok. He literally faces Vader again during the final attack and doesn’t know how to handle him because of this.

He couldn’t do anything just like the other pilots couldn’t because blowing up the Death Star was more important than the individual lives of the pilot.

“Stay on target. Stay on target.”

John Doom said:
He wasn’t threatening him, but the plan sure was a threat to them both.

Technically having the tracking beacon not work was a threat to them all but you’re still rationalizing it with your own feelings though.

Just by Leia once,
while Kylo takes shit from Snoke, Poe and Hux.

Snoke is his Master. Did you see Vader talk back to Palpatine? The answer is no.

Poe cracked a joke. He said nothing even remotely close to an actual insult like Leia did to Vader. And shortly after he got his mind probed by Kylo.

Hux suggested that his personal agenda doesn’t interfere with Snoke’s and was promptly threatened with death should he not get BB-8.

Kylo really only takes shit from Snoke. Vader on the other hand takes shit from Leia and Tarkin.

Don’t make me post my list again and make an additional one about Vader in ANH, I’d rather not repeat myself on this. I agree we disagree, ok? 😄

Adywan already handled that for me. And any list you post doesn’t refute his actions against certain characters in the film regardless of his failures. And like I said both him and Vader both failed in the end.

Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.

It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.

Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.

Still doesn’t make Vader imposing. He killed an old man who literally gave his life a way. So scary.

EDIT:

Dek Rollins said:
I didn’t compare the actions, I compared the characterization of Kylo killing Han to another point of characterization. Kylo wants desperately to be evil (for some reason), so he wants to prove to himself that he can be ‘so bad’, by killing his father. And as I said, I don’t think their relationship stretched that far in the first place (that’s just what I picked up from what we saw/heard in the film).

Well it came off like you were comparing the actions. And as it pertains to the analogy it’s still apples and oranges no matter how rocky their past relationship was.

John Doom said:
Not if it was just a test. If it wasn’t a test, then of course I guess he could’ve done that, though there’s the old debacle on whether the Force can be used to hold living being, but let’s not go into that.

And like I said before Vader testing the Carbonite chamber on hand is indicative that freezing Luke was initially his objective until Luke escapes.

Well you said lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands while that wasn’t the fact in the PT. But in ESB Vader has no problem using Makashi and for all intents and purposes Luke is trying his best. Or at least trying at any rate.

:\ Don’t twist my words, now: they had to to fully utilize them, because, according to Hamill, it was supposed to be pretty heavy. Since Vader is just playing with him and not using his full strength, he can handle it with just one hand.

John Doom said:
For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed.

Maybe you didn’t convey exactly what you meant but your words are your words.

Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him.

It came off as a threat.

😄 I knew you would’ve brought this one. She’s taunting Tarkin, not Vader. She never harrasses Vader and definitely fears him after she’s be captured, especially (of course) during her torture.

She’s pretty much calling Vader a lap dog. How is that not insulting him? Also if I’m not mistaken she says this after she’s interrogated.

Nope 😄

If I were a bad guy I would rather be called a creature in a mask or a monster than to be labeled as lap dog any day.

Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.

Darn, I did at the end of that point but Kylo only takes shit from Snoke and deservedly so while Vader takes crap from Leia and Tarkin.

As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄

Lord Haseo said:
and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped

Also you can say that him saying the First Order (and him by extension) is a taunt.

Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\

Well viewers subjected to their own opinions. I have debated with people who say Vader (even in ESB) isn’t a great villain for this or that reason. I’m trying to keep my personal beliefs out of it and talk about what his actions are in the film.

John Doom said:
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.

Lets see:

• Kylo killing Lors San Tekka: Beginning of the film
• Kylo stopping Poe’s blaster bolt and putting him in stasis while having a conversation: Beginning of the film
• Kylo tearing information from the mind of Poe: Beginning of the film
• Kylo Ren nonchalantly deflecting Rey’s blaster bolts and putting her in stasis before incapsitating her with an unknown Force Ability: Middle of the film
• Kylo Ren Killing Han in a vile manner: End of the film
• Kylo Ren Force pushing Rey to a tree and knocking her out, decimating Finn in a lightsaber duel and dominating Rey for most of their duel while suffering from a Bowcaster wound and the guilt of killing Han: End of the film

Not that Kylo Ren didn’t have his fair share of failures but both him and Vader both failed at the end when it counted.

EDIT:

Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.

Qui-Gon was defeated in a heated duel and that was due to Maul’s skill and youth. Obi-Wan literally let Vader kill him. I mean…

suspiciouscoffee said:

Dek Rollins said:

I guess I did, but they were referring to Han specifically. Either way, that whole opening piece of the film put me off from the start. (Well, after the crawl went by and an actual scene started, I mean)

Seriously? The opening scene was my one of my favorite parts of the whole movie.

Even people I’ve spoken to who hate the film more than life itself gave at least the opening scene props.

delete this as well

delete

Dek Rollins said:
I’d also like to add that Kylo was pretty much an angsty teen who was proving his loyalty to the gang, and that he’s ‘real bad’, by swiping the Butterfinger from the grocery store. Or, in this case, by murdering his father, with whom he obviously didn’t have a good relationship anyway.

Did you just compare a petty crime to patricide? Wow…

EDIT:

John Doom said:
Vile, but not threatening.

Tell that to Finn, Rey and Poe Dameron. Also you could tell it to the Han and Lors but they’re dead. Or even the First Order officer that told him about Finn, Rey and BB-8 escaping Jakku but there’s a possibility he’s dead too.

John Doom said:

Lord Haseo said:

If someone can either choke you out or choke you to death by normal means why can’t The Force do that? And what about the other suggestion I made?

We don’t know how the Force works. Consider chocking needs to be in anger, would it be possible to control oneself so to just choke out instead of killing? Maybe, maybe not, we don’t know, they’ve not told us.

It’s pretty goddamn unreasonable to believe that you can choke someone to death with The Force (even over massive distances) but choke someone to unconsciousness. Also when choking someone they are knocked out and you have to continue the choking before they eventually die.

Is the other suggestion related to that novel and ROTS? I said they can’t be used as examples because they were written way after TESB.

I meant Vader picking him up (or what Vader actually did to make Luke fall into the chamber in ESB), holding him down with The Force and turning on the Carbonite chamber.

For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.

Vader used one hand early on in his duel against Luke in ESB

He was just playing with Luke, he’s not using all his strength. According to Lucas and Hamill, the only way to fully use a lightsaber back then, was with two hands.

Well you said lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands while that wasn’t the fact in the PT. But in ESB Vader has no problem using Makashi and for all intents and purposes Luke is trying his best. Or at least trying at any rate.

His objective was to bring him to the Emperor, so he decided he would’ve freezed him using the Carbon Freezing. What I’m suggesting is that if Luke could be easily captured with no effort using the Carbon Freezing, he would’ve brought him to the Emperor. If Luke were to overcome this test, he would’ve instead tried to make him join him.

I think Vader would have still offered Luke a place at his side regardless. The only thing what would feasibly change is that if Luke was weak enough to be frozen Vader would train him more before moving against The Emperor.

Tarkin does respect him

Tarkin respects him and thinks of him as a friend but he tells him to stop choking that Imperial Officer and he tells Vader his plan of bugging the Falcon had better work. To which Vader had no response too. Hux would never say something like that in TFA even if he did outrank him.

Leia fears him

“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash” - Leia

Rey on the other hand calls Kylo a creature in a mask and a monster. Quite a difference. No?

Vader does have a master, but in TESB he also shows bravery for his plan to overthrow him, and in ROTJ he’s not the main villain anymore.

I didn’t say anything about Vader in ESB or ROTJ in that segment though. In ESB he is a monumentally better villain and character; this I will not deny and in ROTJ he was still a main villain but was still subservient to Palpatine like Kylo is to Supreme Leader Snoke. I won’t hold that against either of them.

Poe is not “promptly mind raped”, he’s just brought away after an embarassing silence. He’s tortured later in the movie, because that’s Kylo’s mission, not as a rection against his taunt.

I was talking about his interrogation scene. In their first encounter Poe says

Poe: So who talks first? You talk first?
Kylo Ren: The old man gave it to you.
Poe: It’s just very hard to understand you with all the…
Kylo Ren: Search him
after he’s searched
Kylo Ren: Put him on board

and in the actual interrogation scene

Kylo Ren: I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance on board. Comfortable?
Poe: Not really
Kylo Ren: I’m impressed. No one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map.
Poe: Might wanna rethink your technique.
Kylo starts his mind probing
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
Poe: The Resistance will not be intimidated by you.
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
*Poe starts to scream and Kylo tells Hux about the information being in a BB Unit.

I don’t see how any of this has to do with the topic of the thread.

Z6PO said:

Why though?

Z6PO said:

Ghibili said:

Fake !

Not in my mind it isn’t.