Lord Haseo

JediExile said:
Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader?

I’m going to answer that with part of your own post

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke - you

What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

That Kylo Ren when put in a similar situation to the one Vader faced in ROTJ he will not be seduced by the enemy/the light side. Just because he doesn’t say "By the grace of your training I will not be seduced like Vader did" doesn’t mean that the obvious similarities in the task isn’t what prompted him to assure Snoke he wouldn’t be swayed from his path. There would be literally no reason for him to say that unless he’s trying to assure Snoke he will not fail in the same area as his grandfather. And just because something isn’t explicitly stated doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there; sometimes you just need to put two and two together. It’s not lazy/shitty writing to sometimes respect your audience’s intelligence.

That’s my bad.

It’s cool. It’s just one of those misconceptions I can’t understand because Snoke called him Master of The Knights of Ren

This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all.

Well since he knows about Vader’s turn and believes he was seduced by the enemy it is apparent that he thinks Anakin Skywalker is a perversion and that Darth Vader was his true self. Even when Rey gets into Kylo’s mind and discovers his fear it is that he will never be as strong as Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker

also there’s this:

It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten - Luke Skywalker

So it’s more than possible Kylo thinks in reverse as to who Vader’s true self was

The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed.

Aside from my rebuttal above we need to heed to the fact that Kylo Ren is not of a stable mind. Even in the novelization the mask never communicates back.

I could have sworn I saw a video describing a deleted scene from the movie where Snoke talks about Vader, but must be my imagination or something.

Maybe it’s one of those other deleted scenes JJ recently said could be released in the future but it is most certainly a scene in the novelization. I have read the book so I know this to be true.

It’s explained that the Resistance is being supported by the Republic indicating a positive relationship, but other than that I know nothing about the Resistance and the Republic. Then I read about the treaty and I got a little mad, but it made more sense. You can’t just continue a series 30 years later and be unwilling to delve even a tiny bit into the politics that occurred during those 30 years and explain why the Republic army isn’t involved in the movie.

Yeah, they were trying to stray away from the PT a bit too much. Hopefully there is a deleted scene in which this exposition is layed out

“Crashing” seems a little extreme. To me that implies higher speeds and a chance to die horribly. She had a rough takeoff and fucked up an archway if I remember, but the Millennium Falcon wasn’t about to shit itself or anything.

That’s why I said they could have been captured too.

She did get hit twice during the chase, but the Millenium Falcon is a huge target (unlike an X-Wing) and it’s taken more hits from a TIE Fighter in the past.

That’s true but it’s not like she was ducking and dodging (at the time) when she was hit

I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter.

Yeah that’s because Chewie wasn’t trying to evade any of the film. He was more or less keeping the ship steady

Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

What I meant by mundane is her just doing basic evasive maneuvers

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

Well perhaps he didn’t know that was another one and perhaps the other gin wasn’t in a good position to fire. I don’t know really

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

If anything Luke should have been the one who was uber uncomfortable sitting in the thing. Would definitely make the ordeal a tad more realistic.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

Yeah, Wedge was cool. Hopefully he at least get’s a mention in the sequels.

JediExile said:
Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

It doesn’t matter if he’s talking about having to kill Han or not. Clearly the situations in TFA and ROTJ are similar so him saying he will not be seduced ties into Vader. It’s just not explicitly stated because it doesn’t need to me.

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue.

For one Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Secondly, since he knows about Vader’s redemption and he says “by the grace of your training I will not be seduced” means he was seduced by the enemy and the light side by extension. Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment. Having a Dark Sider talk about how he feels about Vader’s turn is a bit redundant don’t you think?

I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

It’s not a deleted scene; it’s a scene in the novelization.

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

Having the Republic deal with The First Order is another layer into the conversation. The Resistance was created as a backroom type of way to destroy the First Order. If you include the whole treaty the conversation shifts immensely.

People seem to think that a Mary Sue is just a character that can do amazing things that others can’t, but if that were true then most Force users would be Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

Truer words have never been spoken

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke.

Almost crashing the ship is not a little issue. It could have gotten them killed or captured. Furthermore she got hit twice during the chase and showed visible difficulty while doing the most mundane things with the Falcon. We never saw any type of difficulty flying the Falcon/X-Wing/Snow Speeder with Luke or Han

I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did.

That was impressive but even then she still barely made it out of there.

I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy

Yeah that’s why it took Han 43 seconds to destroy the first TIE Fighter.

This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

Overall it was a pretty good performance. Not on Han and Luke’s level. Hell I wouldn’t even put her up with Wedge.

The line about Womp Rats enforces Luke’s own ability to make the shot without the Force and his shooting in the dog fight. It’s definitely not just a throwaway line, it makes the shot more believable. The Force did help Luke the most in that situation, I will agree.

Even before training Force Wielders show manifestation of their affinity for The Force from time to time. Something like bulls-eyeing womp rats could be considered one of those early manifestations.

Yes siree

I’m pretty sure saying “You are a retard” is insulting someone.

Oh boy lol

It seems we have Mala Stana 2.0 in our midst.

TV’s Frink said:
I don’t know why, the dialogue is very unclear.

I like that interaction. It has nothing to do with the argument.

No

EDIT:

Also if we’re being real here

TV’s Frink said:
Ah, I don’t really care, it actually kind of highlights his…um…how should I put this politely?

His detachment from reality? Too strong?

…

TV’s Frink said:
HAN
Sanitation? Then how do you know
how to disable the shields?

                      FINN
       I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.

                      HAN
       People are counting on us! The galaxy
       is counting on us--!

                      FINN
       Solo, we'll figure it out! We'll
       use the Force!

                      HAN
       That's not how the Force works--!

I smiled while reading that

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, he’s said that.

Seems like a psych evaluation should be a prerequisite for admittance into this forum

Scott109 said:
You could say she died of complications in pregnancy.

Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we’re losing her.

You could say she died as a result of the will of the Force.

Which translates to “She died because reasons”

DuracellEnergizer said:

doubleofive said:

generalfrevious said:

George deliberately sold it to Disney to fuck up the distribution rights to make all but impossible for the originals to be released again.

I’ve read a lot of things by you (since they turned off the Ignore feature), but this is perhaps the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever said.

Nah. His claim that global warming will turn Earth into a dead planet hotter than Venus within a century or two is more ridiculous.

He didn’t actually say that…I don’t believe you.

Scott109 said:

adywan said:

Scott109 said:

Honestly, I greatly prefer the idea of Padmé dying in childbirth to the idea of her living on Alderaan with Leia for a few years, which would imply that she purposefully parted with her son Luke.

You mean that you prefer the fact that she “lost the will to live”, therefore not giving a damn about any of her kids (ignore the ridiculous fan theory about Palpatine sucking the life out of Padme to give it to Vader) , to her fighting to live and at least being able to be there for one of her kids? Any decent parent would have fought tooth and nail to live, not just give up because your psycho husband went bad

If you spent your entire life fighting to preserve a democratic republic only to discover your husband ushered in a violent dictatorship which oppress your future children indefinitely, losing the will to live is a natural response.

MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we’re losing her.
OBI-WAN: She’s dying?
MEDICAL DROID: We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live.

Although the medical droid states Padmé lost the will to live, it never states that the loss of the will to live is the only cause of her death. On the contrary, it states that Padmé is dying “for reasons we can’t explain.” Losing the the will to live was not the primary cause of Padmé’s death; it was only the subsidiary cause. The primary cause was something inexplicable and supernatural. Presumably Palpatine withdrew the Living Force from Padmé to save Anakin’s life, which is why if you listen closely Padmé’s heart stops beating the moment Anakin’s heart starts beating again.

It is very poetic: Padmé died the moment Luke and Leia were born and the moment Anakin was reborn as Darth Vader.

Oh my God.

imperialscum said:

I might contribute a little as well, so you can masturbate.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/885795

That’s a good one.

Ryan-SWI said:
First of all, the plot points in the PT are faaaaaar from simple. Executed poorly? Perhaps, but they are not simple.

The plot of the first two films is pretty much: Palpatine creates a crisis to get power so that he can start a war. The plot of ROTS being him and Anakin exterminating the Jedi and conquering the galaxy. All simple stuff and even Lucas couldn’t get that shit right. Anyone with a brain could have guessed that Palpatine was behind it all even before ROTS.

Funny, that’s what I say about the PT.

“I’m going to take the thing you said about the thing you like and say it about the thing I like”

The only person that was remotely colorful was Obi-Wan and maybe Palpatine. Anakin’s character doesn’t even fit with what we’re told in STAR WARS and Return of The Jedi and he’s just a whiny, self centered and egomaniacal guy.

And that’s what I say about TFA.

Like I said, either either.

eh

Ryan-SWI said:

Lord Haseo said:

Ryan-SWI said:
but from what I’ve seen from this new ‘era’, the only person who really understands the essence of Star Wars is George.

The disconnect between the OT and the PT proves that statement is inaccurate without a shadow of a doubt.

There is zero disconnect. Everything may be more glossy but the theme is the same.

And I don’t secretly love the PT, I openly love the PT.
It’s not a shared sentiment around here and I’m aware of it, but I can’t ignore the fact that I love both the PT and OT and I still don’t consider TFA a proper Star Wars movie.
Either it says something about it, or I’m just nuts.
Either either.

OT:

• Fun faced pace space adventure with simple plots but had a bit of depth
• Practical effects were heavily used to make the universe looked lived in
• Colorful and fun characters who had chemistry and fully realized arcs

PT:

• Slow paced bore fests set in space with simple plots and the illusion of depth
• Over reliance on mostly terrible CGI which made a lot of it look fake and the universe was all shiny while the OT was gritty
• Dull and (mostly) 1 dimensional characters who had no chemistry and no fully defined arcs

I can keep going but I guess all you need are lightsabers, blasters and things that look like Storm Troopers and suddenly it’s Star Wars. Say what you will about TFA but at least that had colorful characters and was exciting in my point of view a Star Wars film with boring characters and no sense of fun isn’t really a Star Wars film.

Like something that would be in a YA novel or some shit.

No…I don’t think any of us would suggest that just I wouldn’t suggest that the people who hate TFA secretly love it…even if they have no good reason to hate it.

adywan said:

Replace all of Max Von Sydow’s lines when he is captured with constant whinging about how the film is a direct rehash of ANH and other usual complaints, kylo not being able to get a word in as sydow keeps on moaning, using direct quotes from certain members here and have Kylo cut him down mid whinge. And then all of the troopers cheering. 😉

I like that. I think he should also put random placements of “rehash” throughout the film. Even if it’s kind of in the background. As for the cheering he could use the cheering from ESB when the first transport get’s away in the Battle of Hoth.

Dek Rollins said:

Disregard. Dumb post

generalfrevious said:

Star Wars is the black tar heroin of cinema. It is the greatest curse in the history of civilization.

That’s a bold claim lol

The only bad thing Star Wars has ever caused is that it turns reasonable and intelligent adults into self important, whiny, hypocritical and immature people when the topic is at hand. It’s baffling how some of these people can go from being completely reasonable and normal in one moment to reverting back to the mind state of an 8 year old in the next.

Ryan-SWI said:
but from what I’ve seen from this new ‘era’, the only person who really understands the essence of Star Wars is George.

The disconnect between the OT and the PT proves that statement is inaccurate without a shadow of a doubt.

Scott109 said:
Considering the original trilogy states that Force sensitivity is passed down through bloodlines (“the Force is strong in my family…”), I never understood the problem with midichlorians per se, even if Qui-Gon’s explanation of them is rather boring and mundane.

The Force being hereditary and The Force being the result if micro organisms are completely different things. The main problems is that there is no mention of midicholorians in the OT.

Honestly, I greatly prefer the idea of Padmé dying in childbirth to the idea of her living on Alderaan with Leia for a few years, which would imply that she purposefully parted with her son Luke.

The quality of the idea is not the issue; it’s the fact that it directly conflicts Leia somehow remembering her mother.

If George Lucas had created very detailed plot outlines but given the actual screenwriting and directing to others to accomplish, the results would have been epic.

The results would have been much more epic than The Force Awakens.

Perhaps. It would be nice to at least see George’s idea for the ST.

imperialscum said:
another masked villain

Why does a mask matter when the actual villain is far different than the original mask wearing villain? Kylo even wears the mask for a completely different reason than Vader did.

another desert planet with lead starting as a “peasant” with undiscovered force potential, etc.

I wish the desert planet starting point trope would die but Rey’s and Luke’s upbringing couldn’t have been more different. And even the ways they embrace the Force are different as well.

imperialscum said:
Sorry but this argument is silly. Take a WW2 for example (on which Star Wars space combat was based on), completely new fighters/bombers came out almost every year. And in a war state, it doesn’t take 30 years to withdraw the obsolete models. In pacific theatre, when F4F Wildcat was introduced in 1941, F2A Buffalo was essentially completely replaced from the main units. Same happened to F4F when F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair were introduced in 1943. Then less than 10 years later (even though war state ended), in Korean War you had completely different type of fighters (jet engines, swept-wing design, etc.).

Don’t we still use B2 Stealth Bombers and shit like that now a days?

It doesn’t need an explanation, at least not to someone who is familiar with air combat history. Just take the F4U introduction that complemented F6F as an example. It added to diversity. Commanders had more choice, i.e. being able to use more specific tools for specific jobs.

Well when/if there are new ships in the ST I hope you’re not one of the ones complaining about them suddenly popping up…because you know people are going to do that.