I’m not a fan of the PT either, but I think it’s good we have users with diverse preferences and tastes, bringing different and sometimes noteworthy points of view. Every single opinion should be respected.
Thankfully not every scene has a heavy teal & orange or magenta grading, but everywhere contrast is high and saturation way above normal, with all the characters’ skin (especially Han’s) often turning either magenta or orange, depending on the grading used.
The script would have improved if Rey had stolen The Millenium Falcon from Han Solo during her escape from Jakku and Han Solo had tracked her down to retrieve his ship. . . .
Interesting, but why exactly would he be on Jakku?
What if Han himself were looking for the droid?
He might be informed by Leia of its position on Jakku and, since he already is in a near system, he decides to rescue it. If you add one day between the beginning of the movie and Finn meeting Rey, Han should have enough time to arrive by hyperspace and starting looking for the droid. Than you can have, for example, Han finally finding the droid, and Finn and Rey following him on the Falcon when the fighters arrive.
…Let’s see:
-way less reused plot events. Why not a quest to find a Force-related relic in ep.VIII?
-Rey not related to any OT character;
-A coherent in-universe explaination for Rey’s feats in TFA, but please no new “chosen one”;
-Kylo as a greater threat, or another character (Hux or Snoke) besides him to fill the role of the main villain;
-More focus on the characters since, by now, we still know very little of them;
-no more teal & orange/magenta and high contrasts, just simpler well-crafted gradings chosen to match the scene;
-Leia working as a Resistence leader;
-the Republic (or its remnants);
-Less and less Chewie and Luke, so we can focus exclusively on the new cast;
A Jedi knight and, specifically, a Jedi master in ROTS.
[…] Kylo Ren was kicking her ass until she channeled the force […]
Channeling? C’mon, she was just taking a short nap 😄
Maybe they could’ve shown us Kylo pouring one of his victims’ ashes on the table. Von Sydow’s character’s for example, made recognizable by one specific detail.
A dumb vilain, but a dangerous one. I mean, he kills two old unarmed guys, one Starship computer and one interrogation chair. A great SW vilain, no doubt about that 😄
I think you would agree with this comic by Leo Ortolani, then 😄
Well it seems as though the place in which Kylo Ren puts his helmet on when interrogating Rey has a bit more to it than one would initially think.
That’s too bad it wasn’t explained or suggested in the movie itself. It would’ve been a nice addition.
EDIT:
And here I thought it was just an ashtray.
Were Kylo a smoker, he would’ve been more threatening (jk 😄 )
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting.
You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?
For one I said it that he would beat Maul and secondly, it’s a prequel so there’s a certain level of predictability that comes along with it. Furthermore Maul running away is pretty much accepting defeat. No?
He could’ve run away, or could’ve been killed in episode II or III, the same thing we were saying on Kylo, right? Not so specifically predictable as you say.
You’re right, I don’t understand your argument.
I don’t want Kylo to be less original. I like his character the way he is. But, as a viewer, I didn’t find him as an actual threat to the main characters, which makes him a weak MAIN villian. Making one of the other villains (Hux or Snork) the main villian of TFA, could’ve improved the movie, because they both seem to be more experienced and controlled than Kylo. This could’ve also potentially made the movie more original by having a different kind of main villan (especially Hux, since there never was a MAIN military villain in both trilogies, one directly acts against the main characters).
John Doom said:
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.Well he didn’t say “Well if you’re wrong we’re fucked” so if taken at face value it’s a threat. And that’s how I’m taking it because there is no bias or interpretation involved.
He didn’t say “If you’re wrong you’re fucked” either, so it’s the same. In the Italian version he does say “Guai se pardiamo il contatto” (“We’re in trouble if we lose the connection”), but since this is not the original version, it can’t be considered a proof.
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
No one saw Rey beating Kylo Ren in TFA. Maybe in Episode IX but not in TFA. Absolutely not. If you did; good for you but you’re projecting.
You were projecting too with TPM, since you said earlier you knew Obi-wan was going to kill Maul. What if he didn’t and he just escaped?
He couldn’t do anything just like the other pilots couldn’t because blowing up the Death Star was more important than the individual lives of the pilot.
That’s true, and to this, he was just a common mortal man like the others because Ben couldn’t help him anymore (or so he thought!)
How can it be invalid when Obi-Wan basically stops fighting and just stand there? his weapon is not used in any defensive form so he may as well be unarmed. Vader only killed him when he was defenceless. Not a fair fight at that point at all.
I see what you meant now. You’re right, sorry.
By the way, it’s funny that in a thread about how we could make TFA more original, we have someone (or two people, I can’t keep track with all the quoting) who is arguing that the main villain of TFA should have been less original.
I think you misunderstood my argument:
[…] Kylo can be a good villain character, but he should’ve not been the main villain. Giving a larger role to one of the other two candidates, could’ve improved TFA and potentially made it more original.
Techincally it was a threat to them all but you’re still rationalizing it with your own theories though.
I’m rationalizing using my ears, in both the original and Italian versions: it doesn’t sound like a threat to me. I could say the same for you, since nothing can confirm your theory.
About Kylo and Vader taking shit, no need to repeat ourselves, we’ve already covered this enough.
Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.
It made Maul imposing sure but we all knew Obi-Wan would probably win the duel but I digress.
We all knew Rey would’ve defeated Kylo, Marty would’ve came back from the future, Indy would’ve find the Arc, Batman would’ve stopped Joker…
Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.
Still doesn’t make Vader imposing. He killed an old man who literally gave his life a way. So scary.
If you say so, ok. He literally faces Vader again during the final attack and doesn’t know how to handle him because of this.
So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
Well, for one he isn’t involved in any space battles so #'s 1 & 3 aren’t even a good argument. And if he had been involved in a situation similar to that, then you would have just moaned that it was ripping of ANH anyway. And #2 Vader fights like an old guy against an old guy and kills an old guy that drops his defence, basically unarmed. So Vader kills an unarmed old man and he is threatening, but when Kylo does it then it makes him nonthreatening?
It is a good argument for its examples: of course, I didn’t expect Kylo to do the same things, it would’ve been a rip off as you said, I’m just saying you can depict more threatening villains.
Your argument that Obi-wan was unarmed is invalid, it was a fair duel :\
Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him.
It came off as a threat.
He wasn’t threatening him, but the plan sure was a threat to them both.
She’s pretty much calling Vader a lap dog. How is that not insulting him? Also if I’m not mistaken she says this after she’s interrogated.
Touchè!
Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.
Darn, I did at the end of that point but Kylo only takes shit from Snoke and deservedly so while Vader takes crap from Leia and Tarkin.
Just by Leia once,
while Kylo takes shit from Snoke, Poe and Hux.
As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄
Lord Haseo said:
and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped
Yep, he was “mind raped” mostly as part of his (second?) interrogation by Kylo.
Also you can say that him saying the First Order (and him by extension) is a taunt.
Maybe, buy I don’t remember him reacting against it.
Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\
Well viewers subjected to their own opinions. I have debated with people who say Vader (even in ESB) isn’t a great villain for this or that reason. I’m trying to keep my personal beliefs out of it and talk about what his actions are in the film.
If this is subjective as you say, than there’s no need to discuss it anymore. Tomorrow I’m going to call J.J. and suggest him to write a villain who steals kids’ candies. It’s going to be a masterpiece 😄
Lets see:
[…]
Don’t make me post my list again and make an additional one about Vader in ANH, I’d rather not repeat myself on this. I agree we disagree, ok? 😄
Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.
Qui-Gon was defeated in a heated duel and that was due to Maul’s skill and youth.
Which made the viewers fear for his life when Maul later reappeared and Qui-gon was forced to fight one-on-one again against him. This is good.
Obi-Wan literally let Vader kill him. I mean…
Whether he did it or not, Luke’s “mighty” master had died by Vader’s hand, and Luke would’ve not been able to complete his training to defeat Vader anymore. It worked.
I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.
Another unarmed man, old too.
So, because he was unarmed, this made him a useless villain and not threatening?
How about we add this, this and this? Does Kylo do enough of this? That’s a constant threat, to me.
A villain is not believable because he’s evil but not threatening? He’s not threatening because he doesn’t kill in combat?
This discussion is ridiculous.
It all comes down to whether “acting evil” adds tension and makes you care for the characters more. If it makes you think “He’s strong, I hope the main characters won’t have to face him”, than it’s good.
Qui-gon’s first duel against Maul, for example, was a successful way to make his character an actual threat to the viewers, as well as Obi-wan, Luke’s master, being killed by Vader in a one-on-one duel.
So it was Tarkin’s decision to let the Falcon escape, because it made the viewers think “If it was all just a set up, then they’re still in danger!”
I meant Vader picking him up (or what Vader actually did to make Luke fall into the chamber in ESB), holding him down with The Force and turning on the Carbonite chamber.
Not if it was just a test. If it wasn’t a test, then of course I guess he could’ve done that, though there’s the old debacle on whether the Force can be used to hold living being, but let’s not go into that.
Well you said lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands while that wasn’t the fact in the PT. But in ESB Vader has no problem using Makashi and for all intents and purposes Luke is trying his best. Or at least trying at any rate.
:\ Don’t twist my words, now: they had to to fully utilize them, because, according to Hamill, it was supposed to be pretty heavy. Since Vader is just playing with him and not using his full strength, he can handle it with just one hand.
Tarkin does respect him
Tarkin respects him and thinks of him as a friend but he tells him to stop choking that Imperial Officer and he tells Vader his plan of bugging the Falcon had better work. To which Vader had no response too. Hux would never say something like that in TFA even if he did outrank him.
He tells him to stop him out of fear the situation could degenerate. About his plan, Tarkin was just confiding his fears to him. He trusts him so much, he doesn’t react either to Vader’s claim that Leia would’ve never betrayed the Rebellion.
Leia fears him
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash” - Leia
😄 I knew you would’ve brought this one. She’s taunting Tarkin, not Vader. She never harrasses Vader and definitely fears him after she’s be captured, especially (of course) during her torture.
Rey on the other hand calls Kylo a creature in a mask and a monster. Quite a difference. No?
Nope 😄
I didn’t say anything about Vader in ESB or ROTJ in that segment though. In ESB he is a monumentally better villain and character; this I will not deny and in ROTJ he was still a main villain but was still subservient to Palpatine like Kylo is to Supreme Leader Snoke. I won’t hold that against either of them.
Weren’t you talking about Vader being under Palpatine? I thought you referred to him as in TESB and ROTJ, because he’s nowhere to be seen in ANH, and he wasn’t his master according to that movie, just the Emperor.
Poe is not “promptly mind raped”, he’s just brought away after an embarassing silence. He’s tortured later in the movie, because that’s Kylo’s mission, not as a rection against his taunt.
I was talking about his interrogation scene. […]
Kylo Ren: I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance on board. Comfortable?
Poe: Not really
Kylo Ren: I’m impressed. No one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map.
Poe: Might wanna rethink your technique.
Kylo starts his mind probing
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
Poe: The Resistance will not be intimidated by you.
Kylo Ren: Where is it?
*Poe starts to scream and Kylo tells Hux about the information being in a BB Unit.
As I said, he wasn’t “promptly mind raped” for his taunts during his torture, unlike you said. Kylo didn’t react agressivily against one of his taunts, he was being insistent/threatening because that was his mission. Could it actually be he likes to be taunted? 😄
John Doom said:
Vile, but not threatening.Tell that to Finn, Rey and Poe Dameron. Also you could tell it to the Han and Lors but they’re dead. Or even the First Order officer that told him about Finn, Rey and BB-8 escaping Jakku but there’s a possibility he’s dead too.
Tell it to the viewers. Threatening to the viewers, so they can care for the main characters, that’s my point :\
Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\
Isn’t this exactly what a villain would do?
Anyone can kill someone unarmed with no skill, that’s not threatening :\
Tricking your father into believing you’ll come home and end this path of evil you’re going down only to stab him and tell him “Thank you” is pretty heinous dude. I don’t even think Vader would do something that vile. Much less to a family member.
Vile, but not threatening.
I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.
Another unarmed man, old too.
😄 Also, since we’ve mentioned him, I’m bound by contract to show this.
If someone can either choke you out or choke you to death by normal means why can’t The Force do that? And what about the other suggestion I made?
We don’t know how the Force works. Consider chocking needs to be in anger, would it be possible to control oneself so to just choke out instead of killing? Maybe, maybe not, we don’t know, they’ve not told us.
Is the other suggestion related to that novel and ROTS? I said they can’t be used as examples because they were written way after TESB.
For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.
Vader used one hand early on in his duel against Luke in ESB
He was just playing with Luke, he’s not using all his strength. According to Lucas and Hamill, the only way to fully use a lightsaber back then, was with two hands.
It depends on whether his attempt to push him into the freezer was a first test (so without using all of his abilities, just to test if he was at least able to overcome that one).
I don’t think it was a test. Him freezing Han just to test out whether Carbon Freezing was viable likely indicates that was his primary motive early on.
His objective was to bring him to the Emperor, so he decided he would’ve freezed him using the Carbon Freezing. What I’m suggesting is that if Luke could be easily captured with no effort using the Carbon Freezing, he would’ve brought him to the Emperor. If Luke were to overcome this test, he would’ve instead tried to make him join him.
You mean Tarkin by Leia? Nobody harrass Vader in Star Wars, except for Motti(?) who nearly gets killed because of this. Every character either respect him or fear him.
Yes I mean Tarkin, Leia and Motti. Neither of them show no respect. In TFA Poe cracks a joke to him and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped, Hux warns him not to let his personal reasons interfere with the Supreme Leader’s wishes but is silenced when his life is threatened by Kylo and is scolded by Snoke when he is resisted by Rey. But that’s his Master; I don’t remember Vader every giving Palpatine any crap before he killed him. And just like with the few exceptions of those who don’t respect Vader everyone else either fears or respects Kylo Ren.
Tarkin does respect him, Leia fears him. Vader does have a master, but in TESB he also shows bravery for his plan to overthrow him, and in ROTJ he’s not the main villain anymore.
Poe is not “promptly mind raped”, he’s just brought away after an embarassing silence. He’s tortured later in the movie, because that’s Kylo’s mission, not as a rection against his taunt.
TV’s Frink said:
Not just the final duel…perhaps you forgot he killed someone as well?
You mean Han? Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\
You didn’t believe in him as a main villain, but plenty of people did.
I’m relieved. At least they were able to enjoy TFA more than us.
“I don’t like TFA because Kylo is shown as super evil and skilled din the beginning, but then it turns out that he can’t do anything.” - "I don’t like TFA because Kylo is not threatening enough in the beginning and only does something impactful towards the end."
Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.
Well, they are ten different people; they’re bound to have their own differing tastes and biases …
Yeah, but if there really was a big underlying problem in the movie, these complaints wouldn’t contradict each other so much. Among the people who don’t like the PT, there is at least a general consensus about what exactly is bad, not someone saying “Jar-Jar was stupid and unnecessary!!!” and the next one saying “Not enough Jar-Jar scenes!!!”.
In the case of TFA, it’s all about personal preferences and interpretations, not about things that are truly objectively bad. Notice that I didn’t say “what they don’t like about TFA”, sure you may not like villains to have a personality apart from being evil, but this doesn’t mean every movie that has such a villain is bad.
PT preferences had many years to consolidate, while TFA just got out, so people are still figuring out what specifically is that they didn’t like, and if it’s a subjective or objective problem. By now, you could say both of these opinions on Kylo point out there may be a problem with how his charcter was either written or executed.
John Doom said:
I’m talking about his ability to overall be seen as an actual threat throughout the movie. Please, I don’t want to repeat myself on this : (Well I don’t like repeating myself either but as stated before he was a continued threat to our heroes to the end. His “ultimate” failing being the result of other factors. Other factors you have been actively avoiding. Other factors that have never been in play before a lightsaber duel in the film saga.
I mean if you have to severely injure your antagonist and nerf his abilities so that your protagonist can beat him doesn’t that show how much of a threat he is?
I’m not specifically questioning the reason why he couldn’t kill Finn or Rey, I’m not avoiding the fact he was injuried, which may have weakened him for the final duel. My point is only his ability throught the movie to be seen as a constant threat to the viewer. I already explained you why I don’t think he was, but I’m not going to force you to agree with me, so let’s just end this discussion already or we’re going to repeat our stances forever 😄
Vader’s able to kill someone with Force Choke from thousands of miles away. You think that he wouldn’t master the subtelty of knocking someone out via Force Choking?
We can’t say this for sure because we’ve never seen him chocking someone out in either ANH or TESB.
Also in Lords of The Sith he choked out a main Twi’Lek character at the end of the book and in Revenge of The Sith he Force Choked Padme to unconsciousness.
You can’t use them as examples: both of them were written/shot way after TESB, so the concept of what Vader could do back then was different to Kershner and Kasdan. For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.
I think he was trying seeking to use him anyway though his abilities showcased in the early stages of the duel only furthered him wanting to test Luke. But he was still trying to freeze him at first and that could have been done by much simpler means. He also could have picked him up, held him down with The Force and froze him that way.
It depends on whether his attempt to push him into the freezer was a first test (so without using all of his abilities, just to test if he was at least able to overcome that one).
John Doom said:
When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux)And as you said before, just like Vader in STAR WARS. Someone we both consider a great villain.
You mean Tarkin by Leia? Nobody harrass Vader in Star Wars, except for Motti(?) who nearly gets killed because of this. Every character either respect him or fear him.
certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters. And I remember finding this boring, that’s it
^ I’m sure this pleasantly surprised you.
😄 It did, but too late. I remember my reaction was “That fool is finally doing something!”. And then he was suddenly defeated by Rey after her short nap, and I started laughing 😄
Well, in my opinion he’s not constantly an actual threat from the beginning to the end. When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux) who can’t take control of the situation, and I lost any interest in him, certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters.
So you were wrong…great defense of your opinion!
My impression that he would have never harmed a main character was wrong because of his final duel in the very end of the movie, but my opinion isn’t: he was not a constant threat. As I said, LF could have handled this better by having someone else as the MAIN villain, an actual constant threat, so nobody would’ve said Kylo was not a believable main villain.
I’m saying they should’ve showed him this threatening since the beginning, because at that point his role as the main villain was already ruined to me.
“I don’t like TFA because Kylo is shown as super evil and skilled din the beginning, but then it turns out that he can’t do anything.” - "I don’t like TFA because Kylo is not threatening enough in the beginning and only does something impactful towards the end."
So what is it now? Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.
Well, in my opinion he’s not constantly an actual threat from the beginning to the end. When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux) who can’t take control of the situation, and I lost any interest in him, certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters. And I remember finding this boring, that’s it :\
John Doom said:
You already know what I mean, though you disagree with me. No need to bore you repeating myself 😄No, I kind of don’t. Kylo’s abilities with exception of being able to successfully pull information from Rey’s mind and his loss in the lightsaber duel were pretty consistent throughout the film. The latter failure being the result of numerous extenuating circumstances and without those in play his victory would have been an absolute certainty.
I’m talking about his ability to overall be seen as an actual threat throughout the movie. Please, I don’t want to repeat myself on this : (
It’s not his fault. His duty was to slow down the emperials to let the other escape, and he did a good job.
I could have sworn his duty was to stop the Walkers from destroying the power generators…which is precisely what they do once the battle turns in the Empire’s favor.
Excuse me, but saying this was Luke’s fault is pretty ridiculous. I’m not even sure we’ve seen the same movie.
Yes, the Walkers have to destroy the power generators, but the Rebels’ objective is not to defend them, but to protect them for as long as possible until the transports are away, because they know there’s nothing that can be done against the AT-AT and an entire Emperial fleet. Here’s from the script:
CONTROLLER: General, there’s a fleet of Star Destroyers coming out of hyperspace in sector four.
RIEEKAN: Reroute all power to the energy shield. We’ve got to hold them till all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault.
And then:
RIEEKAN: (into comlink) Launch patrols.
LEIA: (to an aide) Evacuate remaining ground staff.
They were just buying time to escape, they knew there was no way to win that battle. Luke’s not responsible for any of this, look it up :\
Can Vader actually just choke people out?
Why wouldn’t he be able to when people can do a rear naked choke and knock someone out by more conventional means?
He didn’t want to actually hurt the Emperor’s prey and his potential weapon against him.
Knocking Luke unconscious wouldn’t have done a thing to him that beyond well…unconsciousness.
For all we know, controlling oneself when using the Force to choke someone may not be easy: he might’ve not been able to stop before killing Luke, but that’s just speculation, or it may take time to focus (every time we see the Force being used in TESB, it takes more than a few seconds to take effect).
I meant pushing him into the freezer.
Oh well technically he still fell in but got out before it was too late.
And Vader admired him for his ability to overcome his trap.
EDIT: About Chocking-Vader, it may very well be that he was also testing Luke to see if he was skilled enough to help him against th Emperor (in fact he keeps questioning or admiring his skills), so he didn’t want to end the fight too soon.
That’s fine but at first he tried to freeze him and then after that plan fell apart he continued testing him. If he really wanted to freeze Luke initially he could have still choked him out and thrown him in the chamber.
Exactly, that’s what I mean. He initially thought he was “not as strong as the Emperor thought”, then, when he exceeded his expectations, maybe started testing him to see if he could be of some use to him.
