John Doom

Lord Haseo said:
What do you mean? The first scene he’s in he stops a blasterbolt mid air for a long time while having a conversation at the same time. Tutaminis is cool and all but that Force Ability even eclipses it completely.
Also a feat is a feat no matter how diminished someone is to your eyes. Especially when this feat is accomplished under duress.

You already know what I mean, though you disagree with me. No need to bore you repeating myself 😄

Though he successfully destroyed and AT-AT the rebellion still lost the battle.

It’s not his fault. His duty was to slow down the emperials to let the other escape, and he did a good job.

[…] which could have been avoided if Vader had just choked him out

Can Vader actually just choke people out? He didn’t want to actually hurt the Emperor’s prey and his potential weapon against him.

-not be tricked by Vader;

When did Vader try to trick him?

I meant pushing him into the freezer.

using his knowledge to call Leia for help;

Though it’s not established exactly how he’s able to do that it is a mighty impressive feat.

I know, I remember we were discussing this in another thread 😄

EDIT: About Chocking-Vader, it may very well be that he was also testing Luke to see if he was skilled enough to help him against th Emperor (in fact he keeps questioning or admiring his skills), so he didn’t want to end the fight too soon.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
That’s at the end of the movie, though :\

So? It’s just another reason why he’s pretty threatening in TFA. This feat being at the end kind of diminishes the claim that Kylo goes from being super imposing in the beginning of the film to being nothing more than a weakling in the end.

:\ That’s not the point I was trying to do. I’m saying they should’ve showed him this threatening since the beginning, because at that point his role as the main villain was already ruined to me.

He won the moral victory but lost in every other facet. And other than him refusing Vader’s offer what does he overcome in the actual film?

-managing to “disarm” a Wampa;
-successfully leading an attack against AT-AT and using stratagems;
-destroying an entire AT-AT by himself;
-learning more about the Force (granted he didn’t learn how to fully control it);
-not be tricked by Vader in the carbon freezing chamber;
-not giving into fear;
-keeping fighting against Vader (something Kershner himself stressed in the commentary for its importance);
-being able to survive his fall and using his knowledge to call Leia for help;
Against all odds, he never gave up!

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
I don’t remember them actually being threated by him except for Poe in the beginning and Finn in the end.

And let’s not forget Rey in the Forest towards the middle of the film.

Touchè, I completely forgot about that scene 😄

and trying to make Kylo a threat in the end was too late by then. It was boring :\

I think him rendering Finn’s spine useless was an effective way to make him a thread but okay.

That’s at the end of the movie, though :\

That’s right: at that point, his role has become less important, so he doesn’t need to be an actual threat. The Emperor, who’s activily tricking them into fighting against each other, is the main villain, and his ways are the major threat to Luke’s life.

His role became slightly less important and none of that excuses him not acting more like a villain. A villain who has had decades of experience being one.

What’s a villain with decades of experience? A villains is a (sometimes switchable) type of character in a story, not some kind profession 😄

Luke got impatient when Yoda was acting like an idiot which shows a lack of patience, Luke brings his weapons into the Dark Side cave when he was told he wouldn’t need them, he failed to lift the X-Wing out of the water due to his lack of belief, he left to face Vader without completing his training which resulted in the loss of his hand and almost in his capture.

And yet he was able to not give into the darkside and get back, thus winning his fight, overcoming every obstacles. That’s what a hero is supposed to do.
Had it been everything too easy to him, than THAT would’ve made him a weak hero.

I don’t think I should repeat what I just said about Kylo not working as a main villain (I don’t want to bore you 😄 ), I think I’ve stressed my stance enough. In short: Kylo can be a good villain character, but he should’ve not been the main villain. Giving a larger role to one of the other two candidates, could’ve improved TFA and potentially made it more original.

TV’s Frink said:

Watching you two go back-and-forth is like watching Warbler and anyone else go back-and-forth in the politics thread. Exhausting (unless we don’t bother to read the walls of text).

😦 I don’t like walls of text either. I’m trying my best to put only what’s strictly necessary.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:

Sure, but it doesn’t help that, together with everything else I said, makes him less and less of a threat.

To Rey maybe. But to Poe and Finn he’s a legitimate threat.

We are Rey :\ I don’t remember them actually being threated by him except for Poe in the beginning and Finn in the end. But Poe is nowhere to been seen for 3/4 of the movie, and trying to make Kylo a threat in the end was too late by then. It was boring :\

Vader looks conflicted only in ROTJ, when the main villain is now the Emperor. Combined with everything above, this further makes kylo less of a threat.

But Vader is still a main villain. A villain who was the main baddie for 2/3 of the trilogy. That doesn’t diminish the fact that they both have conflict.

That’s right: at that point, his role has become less important, so he doesn’t need to be an actual threat. The Emperor, who’s activily tricking them into fighting against each other, is the main villain, and his ways are the major threat to Luke’s life.

Never being able to see him scared was what made him, even if apparently, more menacing.

That’s good and all but he still seemed scared with the mask on when he was defeated by Luke.

And he was not the main villain anymore, so it’s fine.

Why do you keep saying Kylo has less experience? I know this, but it’s things like this that lessens his role as the main villain.

I keep on saying this is because people are trying to equate him to Vader when the character was literally designed NOT to be a fully realized villain. I’m pretty sure people didn’t say Luke didn’t/would never work as a hero because of his failures in ESB so people chastising Kylo is a bit hypocritical.

:\ I’m not comparing Kylo to Vader. I’m saying Vader is (for example) a good villain, and TFA could’ve used another more threatening villain besides Kylo.
Luke doesn’t fail in ESB like you say, he fights hard to overcome his weakness and obstacles, learning about the Force and facing his evil dark side. He faces Vader and is nearly defeated, but he succeds in not giving up to the dark side to save his “moral integrity”. In the end, he wins his battle, even if it’s a bittersweet ending. So no, I don’t think he doesn’t work as a hero, I think he’s actually the perfect hero, since he’s constantly challanged.

Well bringing it back to ESB Luke had absolutely no training in the art of lightsaber combat (which is completely separate from Force training) and was still able to land a strike on one of the best Duelists in Star Wars history. So Finn landing a hit on and injured, pompous and not fully trained Dark Side warrior isn’t a huge stretch.

Vader’s objective wasn’t to defeat Luke, he was only trying to corner him, and Luke only manages to scratch his armor, no even wounding him.
Kylo, on the other hand, was surely trying to kill Finn (not Rey, I get this), had enough knowledge of the Force to freeze him, push him, disarm him and kill him instantly, but nope. Supposing he was reckless as you suggested, it still makes him kind of a fake threat if he doesn’t fully fight once in the movie.

It doesn’t matter, he just doesn’t work as the main villain. As I said, I’m ok with him the way he is, but somone else should’ve played the role of the main villain, someone who could be seen as an actual threat.

If so Luke didn’t work as a hero in ESB.

If you say so. He basically was the incarnation of everything a hero is supposed to be.

adywan said:

So, by your same argument here, vader is a weak and crap villain in the first Star Wars then? Tarkin isn’t the least bit scared of Vader and doesn’t respect his authority either.

With all due respect for your work on ANH, which I liked a lot, I’m not sure we’ve seen the same movie 😄
I don’t remember Tarkin not respecting Vader’s authority. Tarkin is Vader’s boss, that’s for sure, but he always stand together with him (except when Vader is in battle in the end) and always speaks directly to him, respects his decisions and trusts in him. Tarkin may not be scared by Vader (though he does fear he might lose his control), but everyone else in the movie is, especially the main characters. He’s a constant threat, and this is reminded to the viewers too, especially when he kills Luke’s companions one-by-one.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
-he can’t take control of the situation;

Exactly what situation are you referring to.

Whenever he loses his mind, when can’t stand facing Ray or his father, when he needs to rely on his Master.

-he has to rely on his supposed Master;

Well he hasn’t completed his training so of course he would seek guidance when faced with failure.

Sure, but it doesn’t help that, together with everything else I said, makes him less and less of a threat.

-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;

HUX: Careful, Ren, that your personal interest does not interfere with orders from Supreme Leader Snoke.
KYLO REN: I want, that map. For your sake, I suggest you get it.

Hux doesn’t say shit after this.

It’s enough already, but there’s also that (only?) other scene where they meet again before Snork and he looks amused to see him hopeless for his failure.

-he’s deep inside conflicted;

So? Vader had conflict as well and unlike Vader when Kylo is presented with a chance to do something decent he chooses the darkness.

Vader looks conflicted only in ROTJ, when the main villain is now the Emperor. Combined with everything above, this further makes kylo less of a threat.

-he looks visibly scared for his failures;

I wonder how Vader looked underneath the mask when Luke defeated him. I’m sure he didn’t have a blank face. The only thing we see of Vader is his hand is stretched towards Luke…as if he’s asking for mercy.

Never being able to see him scared was what made him, even if apparently, more menacing.

-he doesn’t exort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;

Technically it was the Storm Troopers fault she escaped but whatever.

I know this, but I think he should’ve been under his authority, which would make him responsible for the way her custody was set and handled. Or maybe not, maybe I’m wrong on that 😄 He did go insane after finding out she escaped.

-he’s wounded by Chewie;

Yeah, he just killed his father. He was swept up in the moment and didn’t mind his surroundings. Something that Vader wouldn’t do but then again Vader has a shitload more experience and training that Kylo does.

Why do you keep saying Kylo has less experience? I know this, but it’s things like this that lessens his role as the main villain.

-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;

Actually Finn was at the top of his class but that injury was due in part to the bow caster wound but more so to his arrogance. Within 8 seconds he could have killed Finn but chose to prolong the fight and in turn he was injured.
and if Kylo had not been so pompous in his abilities he would have fled and initiated a conflict when his abilities weren’t hampered.

Finn was also a janitor on his first battle 😄
In the end, even if Finn was a trained soldier, he still should’ve not been able to even injury the same guy who was able to freeze Poe with a single hand. Call it being reckless, it further lessens his role as the main villian.

I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcter’s life :\

Well considering that he’s not supposed to be a fully realized villain yet (Like Luke wasn’t supposed to be a fully realized hero in SW or ESB) he did surprisingly well especially given his lack of training and experience when compared to Vader.

It doesn’t matter, he just doesn’t work as the main villain, because he’s not an actual threat to the main characters. As I said, I’m ok with him the way he is, but somone else should’ve played the role of the main villain, someone who could be seen as an actual threat.

I forgot to mention that even Poe doesn’t get him seriously. I know, “Leia and Tarkin” and so on (we already discussed this one in another thread), but add this to everything I said above, and you get the picture.

Frank your Majesty said:

What information does he not get? If I remember correctly, Poe didn’t look at the map before giving it to the droid, so all information he could give Kylo was where the map was.

Scratch that, I thought he got to knew about BB-8 in another way 😄

But unfortunately not enough to be a threat. In fact:
-he fails to retrieve vital informations from Poe;
-he can’t take control of the situation;
-he has to rely on his supposed Master;
-that FO-guy doesn’t respect his authority and is in no way scared of him;
-he’s deep inside conflicted;
-he looks visibly scared for his failures;
-he doesn’t extort any information from Ray, who even menages to escape under his nose;
-he’s wounded by Chewie;
-he’s wounded by Finn, a generic ex-FO soldier;

I’m not saying he should’ve been able to do everything above, but he wasn’t an enough threat to be considered a proper villain, a reason to worry for the main charcters’ life :\

Lord Haseo said:

Ironically a lot of people wanted Vader 2.0 but didn’t at the same time. They wanted a calm, mature and menacing master of the Dark Side but they didn’t want Vader. That would be a rehash 😉

My problem with it, is that this way we got no actual threat to the main characters, making TFA very boring to me. I would’ve not minded another villain besides him, an actual threat. Giving a more important role to that FO-commander-guy or Snorke, would’ve probably been enough to fix this.

Lord Haseo said:

Scott109 said:
Personally, I think that C-3PO was hilarious in the final battle. However, I agree that the comic relief distracts from the battle sequence and should have been cut.

I think him saying “Oh this is such a drag” when R2 is dragging his head off is one of the cringiest moments in Star Wars history. That just kills the entire thing for me.

😄 He was hilarious in Italian. Just before R2 removes 3PO’s head, while in English (I think) he just says “My neck!” or “My head”, in Italian he says “If you keep pulling me like this, I’M GOING TO LOSE MY MIND!”, which is hilarious because of the pun (R2 is in fact pulling his mind/head) and the fact he’s not acting like his usual self, as a well composed person 😄

Ryan McAvoy said:

To be fair to Chewie, if one of the psychic kids from Akira turned up at my door, then suddenly revealed themselves to really be OJ Simpson, I’d be pretty freaked out too.

😄

DuracellEnergizer said:

He was specifically calling out to her. One doesn’t necessarily need to be telepathic to receive the broadcasts of a telepath.

I agree with you, I always thought this was the case.

No problem, it’s ok anyway! 😃

DuracellEnergizer said:

There, I’ve done it – I finally seen this movie. My final thoughts?

I liked the production values, I liked the budding chemistry and banter between Rey & Finn, I liked BB-8, and I liked the Scottish & Asian smugglers Han briefly runs into before the rathtar scene. As for everything else, however? The First Order villains? The Starkiller plot device? The execution of Rey’s burgeoning Force powers? The lightsaber duel? It was all very – how shall I put this? – uncaptivating.

I didn’t hate this movie, but I didn’t like it either; once the Starkiller base reared its uninspired stratosphere, I rapidly fell into boredom and just couldn’t wait for the plot dominoes to fall in their predictable order and lead into the end credits.

Now that it’s out of the way, I have no intent or interest in ever seeing this movie again.

6/10

Wow, we’re on the same wavelength! 😄

MalàStrana said:

John Doom said:

I think there are just a few lines with Leia saying she’s Luke’s brother. Then there’s her sensing Han’s death, and that’s it.
EDIT: nevermind

And Ren calling Vader “grand father”.

😄 That Ren never keeps his mouth shut!

darthrush said:

Density said:

I really have never understood the problem some have had with Leia and Luke being siblings. It’s not the greatest example of script writing in history, but it works and ties the plot together. It resolves the love triangle, explains why Leia was able to sense Luke with the force at the end of Empire and who the “other” Yoda was talking about was, gives Luke motivation to attack Vader (which is why any ROTJ fan edit would fall apart), allows for the existence of Kylo Ren (at least as Han and Leia’s son rather than Luke’s), etc. Even watching just the first movie, there’s nothing that contradicts it. Does it seem like kind of a crazy coincidence that they would happen to meet like that in such a large galaxy? Maybe (though not as much when you consider that they were connected via Obi-Wan), but the entire Star Wars plot is built on such coincidences. You have to suspend your disbelief a little and just allow “the force” to explain some of this to enjoy these movies. Star Wars is a fantasy with magic steeped in mythological storytelling tradition, remember, not some kind of hard sci-fi based on realism.

This is why I left them being brothers and sisters in my edit. Removing that entire plot point would practically break the movie no matter how much you hate it.

Not necessarily. I think I was able to make it work in the end, even in giving Luke another important reason to attack Vader (though it wasn’t easy to achieve 😄 ).
As for why one would want to make such an edit, I say because it could’ve been done differently. Isn’t it already a good motivation? I saw edits which turns SW movies into black-and-white films, television shows, parodies… there’s no end to what one could try and do, even with a single movie as a source, which is why I like editing as well as watching others’ edits.

They would be foolish to blame them: the Resistence wasn’t in any way responsible for the attack 😄

I think there are just a few lines with Leia saying she’s Luke’s brother. Then there’s her sensing Han’s death, and that’s it.
EDIT: nevermind

I like the concept of parallel universes 😄
You would only need to edit a few lines in TFA if needed, anyway.

I totally agree with you. In fact, I gave it a try a few months ago and made a workprint to cut that out. I also rearranged the whole space battle sequences making them much more involving and entertaining.
I didn’t publish my edit because I’m not satisfied with it yet. Why? Because of Luke’s silly rescue plan I don’t know how to improve yet :
If you’re interested, I’ll share my workprint here (in a proper thread, ofc 😄 )

You mean our Korean friend? You sure did bump a lot around here: I hope you didn’t get hurt 😄

In general anticipating how much expositions may be needed is difficult, but filmmakers usually shoot new takes providing more informations, if they find it necessary after a test screening.
I see what you mean, though the “common practice” I meant is “explaining everything directly” (that is, through expositions), not just “explaining everything”. You say you’re glad they left the Resistence’s origin (for example) unknown, but that’s not working against this practice, it’s just not telling anything at all 😄 (whether this was a good idea or not, it’s another story).
On a side note, while not explaining the origins of the Republic and the FO was probably intentional because unnecessary to understand the overall plot, I think they actually did try to explain the Resistence’s relationship with the Republic, but I’m 99% sure it was then just cut out along with a deleted scene (probably the one involving Leia), so I don’t think it was really an intentional decision from LF.

Now that you mention it, the movie didn’t explain clearly this as well: we know the Hosnian system was Republic, but nothing (that I remember) seems to suggest it was the one and only system controlled by the Republic. In short, did Starkiller Base’s attack completely destroy the Republic? I thought it did survive, but now I’m not so sure 😄

That’s what I meant: just their name and that they were fighting the FO, the same things I knew. Like me, they didn’t know whose side they were (Republic or rogues), so I hoped this would’ve been explained to me/them later. I guess I didn’t choose the right words to explain my thoughts : (

Frank your Majesty said:

If you look how often (even here) people complain that the origins of the resistance and the first order aren’t explained sufficiently, you can imagine what people would be saying without these exposition scenes.

I don’t understand what you mean: not telling (or not explaining enough) it’s different from telling (through expositions) or not telling directly (through symbolism).
I guess those people would like to know more about the background, but they shouldn’t complain: LF just decided to not tell about their origins, probably because they felt it wasn’t needed to understand the plot or the characters, that it could’ve even confused the viewers with too many informations.
On the other hand, to me one thing they should’ve explained better was the relationship between the Republic and the Resistence, because it makes the main characters’ involvement in the plot itself not clear: are they the fighting with the Republic? Are they supported by the Republic? Are they unofficially supported by the Republic? Are they rogues? Since not even Rey or Finn (the viewers) knew about the Resistence, I thought this would’ve just been explained later in the movie, but it didn’t happen, as far as I remember.

nesboy43 said:

Think about the original trilogy though. When Luke enters the cave in Empire Strikes Back and has that terrifying vision we are left to imagine things instead of having Yoda explain what just happened. I am no film critic, but I always believed in the concept of less being more in most situations (which Kasdan seems to have forgotten). Why did Maz have to say the Lightsaber was calling to her, when the audience literally heard it calling to her earlier? Do the writers think the audience is dumb and needs to be told what they just saw a few minutes beforehand? Why does Finn have to be told a lightsaber is a weapon?

It’s probably like you said: they felt explaining directly was needed for everyone to understand. It’s not Kasdan’s fault, anyway: it’s become kind of a common practice since some decades ago, especially for blockbuster. It may have to do with the fact they want literally everyone to watch these movies and understand them, possibly even kids (except they put a torture scene right at the beginning of TFA, but anyway…). That or they actually think we’re dumb 😄
It’s a shame, because leaving things not directly explained can add to the experience, because it lets the actual protagonist (that is you, the viewer) fill directly the gaps, without someone else’s assistance. Possibly the reason why Blade Runner’s DC and FC are still so popular, as well as TESB.

Which reminds me I still can’t make any sense of Dooku trying to kill Obi-wan with a finish blow and then, after defeating Anakin too but before Yoda arrives, his decision to not kill them anymore. It seems to me the only reason Dooku was trying to kill Obi-wan was to create suspense until Anakin could stand up again, but there’s no in-universe explaination otherwise :\