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JediRandy

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15-May-2006
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27-Feb-2008
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285

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Post
#261053
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Time
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: JediRandy

Ignoring the huge amount of models used in the PT is a pastime for some folks.

They are kind of boring.

Especially when you can't tell the difference between models and CG models.



Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Once again you find loopholes, Gomer and Randy. Not once did I say anything about the usage of models in the PT, so nice job trying to distract me. You are also making a very broad statement by saying Peterson's work is "still there." Some of it is still there, but not all of it. Had this been a book talking about optical effects, there's no way the person writing it would stand for something like this screening as all of the optical effects have either been recomposited digitally or deleted altogether. Randy, if you re-read my post you'll find that I am arguing for the versions that George had made and put out in theaters from the late 70's to the early 80's to be given the treatment they deserve. When I say "deserve," I mean for the sake of history and posterity. Yes, he is the creator of Star Wars but he is also the financier. Other people helped him to create the movies. I just don't understand why you feel the need to defend his ownership of it. It's not like we want to change it, we just want it as it was.....as it was for 14 whole years. Lucas's statement about us falling in love with a half-finished film is just plain insulting. If what he said is true, why do so many of us not like what Lucas did for the SE? And again, I was never arguing against his "vision." He can change it all he wants as long as he gives the original versions the same respect.

Originally posted by: JediRandy
Still sounds like you think this movie is yours… which you ineffectively veiled by describing the accusation as a “drastic oversimplification.” Nevertheless, this fact can’t help itself from rearing its ugly head throughout this entire post.

By removing GL from the position of artist to simply the “financier” of the movies you’ve “cleverly” taken ownership from him and placed it somewhere else… which around here could be Kurtz, Kirshner, Marquand, Bracket, etc…it’s an attempt to make yourself sound like a champion for everyone else who worked on the movies… (who have now apparently has been ripped of by GL with the creation of the SE) This championing has even seeped into the fans themselves, who by purchasing tickets and plastic shaped like R2-D2 now own a part of these movies as well.

Only on a Star Wars message board can the creator of the movies themselves be turned into the guy who signed the checks.


If you choose to read things into it, that's your choice. It may sound that way to you but that's not what I was trying to say.

Also, your choice of words makes it sound as if those people you mentioned only care about money. Did it occur to you that maybe they were upset over the changes made to films they themselves helped to create?


The OOT is on DVD and, if it's as in demand as it's made out to be around SW message boards, it'll be available once again with the proper aspect ratios, etc... if LFL has proved anything its that they'll release anything as long as there is a demand for it.

If my reply implied money, it wasn't my intention.... as for as your thoughts that people who worked on the flicks are pissed off about the SE... I still haven't seen a single source backing up this theory. The only people "insulted" are fanboys grasping for more basher propaganda.
Post
#261022
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I don't see the problem, his models are still in the SE versions of these movies, and the latest SW movies used more models per movie than the classic trilogy films combined.

I don't see how Lucas is slighting the work of the model maker.


Ignoring the huge amount of models used in the PT is a pastime for some folks.
Post
#261016
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
The topic of this thread becomes all the more interesting when you consider that ILM recently sold off their model division. What ever happenned to the George Lucas of the OT? The one who went out to change the industry and give other film makers a chance? The flipside of the coin is that Lucas always talks about how he just knew Star Wars was going to flop, but he was going to get his movies made. That's another huge root of the problem, to him it's all about him. There's just too much evidence here. The Empire Strikes Back had the least involvement from Lucas and yet it's considered every bit as good if not better than Star Wars, a film that's undeniably considered a classic. He took more control over Return of the Jedi, and while at least he got a director and put star wars to rest with the trilogy completed, it's clearly the beginning of so much hypocrisy in him. He complained that he didn't have enough money while he was directing Star Wars, and yet now that he's in the position of executive producer himself he's overly concerned with saving money. Whatever happenned to that energy he had on Star Wars and Empire? Tightly bookending the production of Jedi with Indiana Jones movies probably didn't help much, but again this is all about taking control of things. The real problem with that is, and this is a question I pose, can you go too far in the name of "having control over things?"

Some people have argued that our problem as O-OT fans is that we seek collective ownership of Star Wars, but this is a drastic oversimplification of the problem. We look at it as a work of art, an opinion obviously not shared by its financier who seems determined to make whatever changes he wants just so he can make things conveniently sync up with the movies he made from '97 to '05. This is not responsible film making, folks, not by any measure. What we seek to do is not to give ourselves "ownership" of the art that is the O-OT, it is to take away this "ownership" from the financier. If Lucas is making all of these changes 20 and then 27 years later, couldn't it be argued that Lucas obviously took no pride in his work just as easily as it could be argued that the changes are "good?" There's the shame factor, but I'm not even going into that since this is turning into a basher rant.

Dean Devlin, the producer of Independance Day, said in regards to visual effects that "it's not the tool, it's the craft." Lucas, by even thinking that alteration and deletion of the groundbreaking visual effects work in Star Wars was a good thing, seems to have forgotten that people fell in love with the craft, not the technology. Yes, the dykstraflex was an innovative and groundbreaking technology in '76, but the effects done for the SE are in no way groundbreaking. If Lucas is so proud of what he's done, why did he feel the need to alter the original films for "a whole new generation?" If Star Wars is the classic film that it is, why was Lucas so concerned with updating it? If he makes it a different movie (which even from a legal standpoint he did, just read the copyright info in the end credits), how can people also be experiencing it "again?"

"I fear that my children will not be able to experience the movies that I grew up with." Thanks George, we do also. Last time I checked, it was 2006, not 1996, and a good deal of people have widescreen displays. All movies that were shot in anything wider that 1.78:1 are expected, not hoped to be, but expected to be recieving an anamorphic video transfer. Even the worst movies recieve anamorphic video on dvd. Lucas, you've released the OOT on dvd, yes, but our reactions and indeed the changes made to the homepage should tell you it's clearly not what we were asking for at all. If I ever have a kid, and he or she needs to do nothing besides load a dvd into the tray, why should he or she have to do anything more than that just so the picture will properly fill up the screen and even then at only sub-par resolution? I sure hope that Lucas's own kids don't buy into this "the artist's work is never finished" crap, but a lot of things point to that being the case, unfortunately.

Peterson is good to be writing a book entirely about models, especially in this day and age of IL(M). It's just too bad that LFL sees this as an opportunity to screen the "classic movie that started it all with Peterson's models and is also part of George's vision." George can call that "respect" if he wishes, but he shouldn't deny everyone the actual accomplishment that the O-OT is. He can have things both ways as long as he follows through on the oh so simple request we've made, and he might as well go all out for 2007 and just make whatever changes he damn well pleases. I mean, jeez, it's his movie, right?



Still sounds like you think this movie is yours… which you ineffectively veiled by describing the accusation as a “drastic oversimplification.” Nevertheless, this fact can’t help itself from rearing its ugly head throughout this entire post.

By removing GL from the position of artist to simply the “financier” of the movies you’ve “cleverly” taken ownership from him and placed it somewhere else… which around here could be Kurtz, Kirshner, Marquand, Bracket, etc…it’s an attempt to make yourself sound like a champion for everyone else who worked on the movies… (who have now apparently has been ripped of by GL with the creation of the SE) This championing has even seeped into the fans themselves, who by purchasing tickets and plastic shaped like R2-D2 now own a part of these movies as well.

Only on a Star Wars message board can the creator of the movies themselves be turned into the guy who signed the checks.


Post
#260525
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Originally posted by: JediRandy

He’s speaking out against the movie COMPANY posthumously altering the 3 Stooges material… last I checked Luca$ isn’t dead (contrary to some fans wishes) and Fox isn’t inserting Jar Jar into the cantina scene.

COLOSSAL difference…if the 3 stooges were alive and wanted to reshoot a scene, I'm betting GL wouldn't give a shit....


That's the difference you can't seem to grasp.


Interesting interpretation, although it doesn't seem to match the actual quote, where he says that he is upset with the possibility of his children not being able to enjoy the same version of a film as he did. Don't believe he specified under what circumstances, but to have such specific guidelines seems contradictory to the purpose of the original statement, doesn't it?


Link?



Post
#260512
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Originally posted by: JediRandy
So just because it was seen publically makes it "finished"? The second that movie played on a screen its done and no longer available to be worked on further? Bullshit. Your arguement is the same crap that people drop when they act like the movies are "theirs".

Furthermore, ESB and ROTJ (and the PT) are distributed by Fox.... Fox is paying for that and still give a solid date that they want/need the movie for distrobution... GL funding the making of the films means nothing to Fox. Fox is still putting money into the movies.


I'm not arguing this point at all. What I am saying is that Lucas, because 20th Century Fox signed off all rights to any possible sequels to him, chose to produce the sequels that he did with every intention of getting Fox to release them when it did. Nobody was holding a gun to Lucas's head saying that he even had to make any more movies in the first place. He could've done whatever he wanted for the rest of his career and no one would be able to make another Star Wars movie except with his blessing.

If he's going to speak out on a movie company altering a production by The Three Stooges just because that movie company owns the rights to it, he should practice what he preaches and stop being such a hypocrite.


He’s speaking out against the movie COMPANY posthumously altering the 3 Stooges material… last I checked Luca$ isn’t dead (contrary to some fans wishes) and Fox isn’t inserting Jar Jar into the cantina scene.

COLOSSAL difference…if the 3 stooges were alive and wanted to reshoot a scene, I'm betting GL wouldn't give a shit....


That's the difference you can't seem to grasp.
Post
#260504
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
JediRandy and Go-Mer, would either of you agree that the original, theatrical versions of the original trilogy deserve the respect of a dedicated release? Is a small, substandard-quality "bonus features" disc all that they should ever deserve in your minds? (Since that's what the "creator" wants them to deserve?)

Plus, as Obi pointed out, if George has the complete ethical right to decide when his movies are finished, and what the public adores has no comparable value to that right, then I take it that you wouldn't mind if George used the Star Wars films as a butt wipe and began to enforce that version as the official Star Wars? He "created" the films according to you and, according to your argument, you should love a crap-smeared version if that's what the creator wants you to enjoy. There's no bad move he can make in your minds, even if he were insane, right?


Sure, there should be an "up to date" set available.... I do there that what is available now should be enough to at least quell the Luca$ is a baby-eater, but instead it took it a step further... so who knows.

As for your butt-wiping analogy... way to take is as far as possible to prove your "point"… well played. And save the "there's no bad movie he can make" line.... it's as tired and played out as aspect ratios.




Sorry, but I think it can effectively be argued that George did not put as much effort into the prequels. What he mostly had was a plethora of vague, contradictory ideas and an army of artists who were forced to be totally submissive to that lack of energy and vision.


I can be effectively argued but never effectively proven... think what you want but just because you didn't enjoy the movies doesn't confirm your conspiracy theory.
Post
#260497
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Wrong... it's released because the studio says it to be released, not because it's "finished".... it's finished when the person who created it says it's finished... whenever that is, be it the next day or 30 years later.


First of all, your argument doesn't really apply to the Star Wars movies. Maybe the original film from 1977, but in that case Lucas was still the director and knew the special effects we see in the SE were not even remotely possible at the time. The motion control system developed by John Dykstra was revolutionary, and those extra six months the production was afforded to complete special effects with said motion control system turned into a small miracle. What does Lucas do? He treats it like it means nothing by replacing many of the shots with cgi, barely half-decent cgi for 1997, I might add.

As for the sequels, guess what? Lucas had complete control in every sense over those productions. No one said he "had" to release them in 1980 and 1983, respectively. Did he advertise those movies as "must see half-finished movies?" No, he simply claimed that the movies he knew everyone was dying to see during that time were merely half finished, it just didn't occur to him to tell anyone until 2004.

No self-respecting artist publicly exhibits their work for the first time and then comes back to it year's later claiming that it was "half-finished," and I mean no artist.

So please don't spew that hogwash about "the studio saying it was finished." If that were true than what would you call what millions of people saw back on May 21st, 1980?


So just because it was seen publically makes it "finished"? The second that movie played on a screen its done and no longer available to be worked on further? Bullshit. Your arguement is the same crap that people drop when they act like the movies are "theirs".

Furthermore, ESB and ROTJ (and the PT) are distributed by Fox.... Fox is paying for that and still give a solid date that they want/need the movie for distrobution... GL funding the making of the films means nothing to Fox. Fox is still putting money into the movies.

Post
#260484
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So he owns it in any way you could imagine.


This is not that slippery of a slope to walk, Gomer. Lucas's legal ownership of the movies in no way entitles him to alter them and treat them the way he has. Once a movie is released, it is finished. If we're talking about scenes that were shot, finished in every way, even included in the original edit of the movie, but were not included in the theatrical release, that's still a much different situation than Lucas and the SE's and nowhere near as bad.

The special effects added for the SE do scream "20 years later" in regards to the original effects. You still don't seem to realize that, prove to me otherwise.

The way in which the original theatrical vesions have been treated are unjust to our culture. You still don't seem to get that either, prove to me otherwise.


Wrong... it's released because the studio says it to be released, not because it's "finished".... it's finished when the person who created it says it's finished... whenever that is, be it the next day or 30 years later.
Post
#260460
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Look, I like the jagoff prequels, but this is Original Trilogy.com I just want a copy of it that looks as good as Cannonball Run 2. For the love of fuck, Gomer, Randy, Internet Police, can you leave me alone? Please? I'm begging you.


Honestly, how long can you talk about aspect ratios and subtitles being in the wrong place? It's got to get old sometime, isn't a little back-and-forth a bit more interesting?
Post
#260438
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Wookie Wedgie
But Randy, why do you feel the need to do that? So what if they're saying "rhetoric"---rhetoric doesn't mean it's untrue.

What is it specifically that bugs you about what they say? I don't know how this all matters to you.

Also, I find it hard to believe you prefer the OT over the PT. If you had any respect for the OT, you would notice and criticize the faults of the PT in comparison to the originals (and I'm talking story-wise. SFX, yes are incredibly advanced in the PT), of which you haven't pointed out yet. Why do you prefer the OT over the PT?


I've criticized the PT on other boards and I've criticized the OT.... neither are perfect movies. Like most OT fans they're more dear to my heart, but I don't clutch them so tightly that I kill everything that is fun about SW... like I think some fans have.
Post
#260425
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Wookie Wedgie
Well, go on, Randy, prove that you're not a water-toting stoogie for Lucas by being at least the tiniest bit critical about the PT's or Lucas himself. See if you can. And "I would like more scenes of Jar Jar Binks" just doesn't cut it.


I like the OT more than the PT.... believe it or not it's possible to like both! I thought the OOT should be available on DVD.... some of the SE sucks, should I go on?
Post
#260421
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Wookie Wedgie
No, Gomer, Lucas stood at the far end with the PT and waggled his finger and you came all the way over with your tongue lolling out.... you, too, Randy.

And, yes, of course, Jar Jar trumps the OT... from a "certain point of view." Your point of view and Lucas' point of view.


Oh! The "You're just a blind Luca$ follower" line! Wheee!!



Post
#260390
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
If you're talking about "film buffs" or film students watching the OT in the future they're all going to know when they were released... they're going to be able to take a step back and realize that ANH was released in the 70's and it, along with many other movies from the 1970's had a huge impact... there are tons of great books and documentaries about that generation so I doubt ANH's impact will be lost because people watch TPM first. And if the subtitles being in the "wrong place" manages to ruin ANH for a group of film students in 2345, then wow...

Have any of you have ever read about Martin Scorsese and how he and his film buddies would sit in an apartment all day and night watching old foreign movies that they projected onto a white apartment wall? They'd cover their windows with blankets so the sunlight wouldn't ruin the projection and they'd watch movie after movie projected onto a friggin' wall..... meanwhile, people are worried about aspect ratios and sound mixes for kids 50 years from now... put things in perspective, folks.

Post
#260300
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
Originally posted by: JediRandy
the OOT was just reased on DVD...


as bonus material in non-anamorphic video to the 2004 SEs which Lucas is still trying to sell to us, this time individually.


been waiting for line to show up.


If future generations end up watching it on a 16:9 display, Greedo's subtitles will be cut off because the disc is non-anamorphic. Did you ever consider that?


well then have George Jetson change his display

Post
#260282
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
If you saw the saga in HD, the 1997 material SCREAMS "I'm from 20 years later!". It will be even more obvious to the film students of tomorrow, who will not be watching low-def copies of anything. They don't show filmstrips and scratchy 16mm in class anymore now do they? future appreciation of Star Wars '97 will be handicapped by it's hybrid nature. Star Wars '77 will be handicapped by it's poor presentation.


the OOT was just reased on DVD...
Post
#260277
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Originally posted by: JediRandy
ANH has and will “stand the test of time”… film students will still read about the impact of the flicks 100 years from now even with Jar Jar Binks.

But will they be able to see? See the movie that was, in its time, the largest cinematic phenomena ever? That movie ... "Star Wars" of 1977 ... a historical artifact. Not Star Wars:A New Hope:The Special Edition of 1997, 2004 or later.


When I study film, I don't get a colorized and revamped version of Citizen Kane or The General. I get to study film history by viewing film history, and not revisionism.



It would be quite the shame for the 'youth of tomorrow' to only be able to read about Star Wars.





.


was there a DVD just released with it, or not?

Post
#260264
Topic
Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this?
Time
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Originally posted by: CO
I found this post on TFn, and it justifies what has happened to the saga when watching the PT first, and totally justifies my points of now someone thinking the OT is average, including our beloved Star Wars from 1977. Read on and make your own assessments of how new fans 1-6 will view it:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author Topic: Has anyone here ever seen the PT before the OT?
dvdcdr
Registered: Aug '06

Date Posted: 11/27 5:53pm Subject: Has anyone here ever seen the PT before the OT?
Hmm, I may be the only one.

But the point I'm trying to make is, I think the PT is often bashed because it is not nessecarily worse than the OT but different. They honestly are two completely different types of movies, both good in their own respect. However, the first Star Wars movie you see will stick in your head forever. you'll always be preprogrammed to think of star wars as that movie, or at least the trilogy it is part of.

A few years back, with talks of ROTS, everyone kept telling me I had to watch the Star Wars movies. When I kept telling them I didn't know which one to get, they'd say ANH. Confused, I went and rented Phantom Menace. And despite everyone saying how horrible Phatom Menace is, I actually kinda liked it. It wasn't my favorite movie ever, but it was my first taste of Star Wars and I found GL's style of moviemaking very appealing. I could've stopped watching thet SW films right there, but I decided to continue because I happened to like TPM.

I moved on to AOTC, which I liked even more. I thought it a very good film, with good special effects, music, and story. I also did not know about Palpatine becoming emporor or anything at the time, so the story was very perplexing to me.

Then came ROTS! I LOVED IT!!!!!! It's one of my favorite movies of all time! I was going nuts when I saw that movie!!!!!!!! And throughout the whole time, everyone was telling me I was gonna like the OT even better.

So, I eventually watch ANH, and, well, uh...I did not like it at all. I didn't like the unepic lightsaber battle, i didn't like the corniness, i didn't like the plot at all (it really didn't have the right flow to it, with a lot of plot twists and everything. half the movie was just them running around on the death star, and that bored me), i ddidnt like the little catchphrases like nerfherder or anything, and more than anything i did not like the random shooting scenes such as on the beginning with the tantiv IV. even johnny william's music didn't seem as good. now i know it was a different era of filmmaking, and the movie must be good because so many people love it, but it just wasn't what i had in mind. because when i htought of star wars at the time, it was the pt.

i forced myself to watch ESB, which was a lot better, but still not prefered over the pt.

and then ROTJ, not as good as ESB, but better than ANH. It was just an ehhhh movie


Now I'm not here to bash the OT, because it can't be bad or else it wouldn't be so popular. All's I'm saying though is it kind of depends what you watch first.

Just as all the OT fans watching the PT missed Han Solo, the banter, vader, the space battles, ect.

I missed the effects, the epic feel, the music, the plot twists, the drama, the superior use of the force and the lightsaber, and dare i say, it jar jar. no, i wont take it that far.


This right here is exactly why this site is so important.

Damn there's so much wrong with this situation, not just with that backwards perspective on star wars but also Lucas' constant revisions of the originals, people need to be made aware of the history of this franchise more now than EVER before.

It's just so wrong it disgusts me, outright. Like if someone were to tell me, a terminator fan, that T3 kicks the original's ass. I'd feel they needed a reality check. Possibly with my fist but violence isn't the answer unfortunately... damn...

I can definitely see myself becoming one of those trying to preserve history for the youth of tomorrow. I hate how it's just about money to lucas, just about finding a way to make more money from his legion of suckers who'll buy anything he sells. Fuck that. There are people willing to restore and preserve the OT by today's standards for FREE on this very board and I honestly think he'd never allow it unless it could be profitable... it's so sad. Something is very wrong about all this...


Are you preserving history for the “youth of tomorrow” or are you preserving your own youth?

This idea that the PT/SE/Holiday Special is going to distort and ruin the impact the original SW made on movie history is a gross overreaction. The original movies have stood for 30 years now and they’ll stand long after people are done complaining about Jake Lloyd.

Godfather 3 didn’t ruin the Godfather just like Jaws 3D didn’t ruin Jaws. ANH has and will “stand the test of time”… film students will still read about the impact of the flicks 100 years from now even with Jar Jar Binks. (They might even read film books that site the beloved SW and evil Luca$ as creating the blockbuster that killed small films)

(Now go ahead and start in on how the OOT isn’t available in High-Def therefore the “children” will like The Phantom Menace more than Empire.)


Post
#259382
Topic
ANH screening with modelmaker Lorne Peterson...WHY ARE THEY SCREENING THE SE??
Time
Originally posted by: Mike O
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Here are some good Star Wars percentages not pulled completely out of fanboy ass.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859


Now to say that that has no validity, but many critics panned The Shawshank Redemption, It's A Wonderful Life, andmany other classic films on their initial release. Similarly, Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers: The Movie did great box office at the time retrospectively and look at the critical concensus now. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, I'm just pointing it out.


I just pulled a random percentage WITH a source... as opposed to pulling a random percentage from thin air.