Faraday, please tell me you’re going to use Palpatine’s unused dialgue, “Long have I waited, and now your coming together will be your undoing.”
It’s a perfect thing for him to say in order to indicate his true plans at the end there.
- I don’t think the Bestoon Legacy is Rey’s parents ship. The TFA flashback (and its reuse in TROS) do seem to imply that she watched them leave in it, but the name ‘Bestoon Legacy’ (Ochi of Bestoon) and D-O being onboard and all suggest to me it was Ochi’s ship. Plus, he must’ve gotten to Jakku somehow. I think in ret(con)rospect, we have to assume the Jakku part of the TFA flashback is a mixture of vision and flashback, and that little Rey never actually, literally watched that ship fly off while Unkar took her away. I’d assume that at some unspecified point after her parents sold Rey, Ochi arrives in the Bestoon Legacy, locates Rey’s parents, takes them on board for interrogation, flies off, and then kills them. Maybe Rey saw the ship fly off and sensed her parents were on it, hence that being part of her TFA vision/flashback or whatever. But there’s no way they sold her to Unkar seconds before Ochi flies away like the flashback would imply if interpreted literally, because that’s just silly. Rey also appears to ‘remember’ her parents being killed by Ochi, which isn’t possible, unless that bit of flashback/vision is just for the audience’s benefit.
The reason I mentioned that I felt it was her parents’ ship is because we don’t always have to adhere to canon in all regards with this edit. ‘Bestoon Legacy’ is never mentioned as the ship’s title in the movie. If it were his ship, the most obvious interpretation of those events would have to be that Ochi left Jakku without noticing the screaming girl behind him. Wow, that just makes him seem so stupid.
You can construe the vision to match what you suggested, but 90% of the audience isn’t going to come to the same conclusion I wouldn’t think.
To be honest, I’m not entirely sure why the writer’s decided that was his ship. It just creates way too many problems. It’s also a little bit of a junker on the inside, so why not give its ownership to, you know, junkers? I think Sith assassins would fly with more class.
EDIT: I feel I should clarify that the most elegant solution here would be to change the appearance of the ship in TFA and then remove all hints of Rey recognizing Ochi’s ship. I only suggest the above to avoid having someone do VFX work.
One thing from DOTF that is sorely missing from TROS is a real stormtrooper uprising. Sure, you have Finn and some other ex-stormtroopers riding space horses on a Star Destroyer’s surface - but that’s literally it.
What I think would be great is if when the navigation tower is changed to the lead Star Destroyer, Finn tells everyone that it is carrying the signal (by using the force), but then still has some people do the ground assault. Why you may ask? Because he has the bright idea that he can broadcast his own signal from the tower: an inspirational speech to get any First Order stormtroopers that were assigned with Pryde on Exegol to turn against the Sith Troopers.
It would have been so cool to see white stormtroopers battling side by side with Resistance members against red ones.
The red ones, in case you didn’t know, were born and raised on Exegol and brainwashed. The troops like Finn have hope because they were taken as children.
Those First Order stormtroopers would most likely be present on Pryde’s ship - which is carrying the signal. All the more reason why Finn doing that would be super helpful.
Evening to night to morning may work in novel form, but I would say that in film you kinda have to be careful with that kind of thing or else viewers will be able to tell that time is passing way too quickly.
I think Nev’s latest mockup is much better than the first one. She starts in a dark place both figuratively and literally, and then the sun(s) rises as Luke raises the ship. But that’s just my opinion.
Yeah my best guess is that Ochi’s ship is actually Rey’s parents’ ship. He just stole it from them for some reason. So I would actually simplify the line to, “I’ve seen that ship before” instead of having Rey identify it as Ochi’s.
Unless somebody wants to go back and go some insane VFX on the ship in Rey’s vision, that’s the only thing we can really do there.
Yeah I might like the sound of that more than the Anakin callback tbh. Getting some heavy baptism vibes from it since he is also surrounded by water in the scene with Han. Definitely like the sound of birthing/rebirthing now.
Think I’ll look around the internet later today to see if Mark says “birth” anywhere.
But arguably the end of Leia’s Jedi path takes place in TROS where she projects herself to him to turn Ben back to the light. Pretty sure she doesn’t give birth there. Actually, hold on a second.
I just realized the freaking genius of changing it to birth. Her son is “reborn” at the end of her Jedi path in TROS, and she physically gives birth to her son shortly after having the vision and giving up her formal Jedi training.
I don’t really think this is the time or place to talk about Rey’s arc. Unless Hal is willing to upend the entire structure of the film for V2, that should be kept in the Redux thread, methinks.
+1
As I said in my previous comment, we’ve fallen down a rabbit hole again. Even though it sucks, we’re going to have to keep her parents noble in order to not upend the entire structure of this film.
We’ve fallen down another rabbit hole folks lol. I find whenever we do this we eventually realize that the way the movie has it originally is that way for a reason.
I remain unconvinced it would work properly, sorry. Definitely has potential in written form where you can change visual details and lines so easily.
Their hatred for Rey (who is just a child) would not be enough for them to want to die for themselves to ensure she suffers.
I’m sure Hal has more to say on the matter, but I feel this is one of those bad things that TROS does that simply cannot be changed without making things worse.
I never said they wanted themselves dead?
One of the key elements of this movie’s plot is that Ochi is using the same ship as her parents because he caught them and interrogated them. If that happened under the idea that they had abandoned her, they would have absolutely no qualms with giving up her location. Instead, we find out that her parents are dead and he stole their ship.
Now, I’m not sure if you could remove the death of her parents and create the impression that they’re still out there somewhere, but that still doesn’t really solve the issue with the ship. And the only reason they would still be alive is if they gave up her location.
I remain unconvinced it would work properly, sorry. Definitely has potential in written form where you can change visual details and lines so easily.
Their hatred for Rey (who is just a child) would not be enough for them to want to die for themselves to ensure she suffers.
I’m sure Hal has more to say on the matter, but I feel this is one of those bad things that TROS does that simply cannot be changed without making things worse.
See the edit on my previous comment, Testing.
All of these ideas would be wonderful for Capatain Faraday’s novelization. I’m just uncertain, like I said previously, that we have enough content here to successfully do what we’re talking about in film.
EDIT: Realized another reason why this wouldn’t work. If Rey’s parents had abandoned her, they would have given Palpatine her location without a second of hesitation. This muddies everything up because Ochi’s ship is the same ship that her parents use.
And Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter alone does not undermine her TLJ arc, but her parents being good people does, because it means that she stopped caring about her parents all for nothing. They should’ve had it so her parents abandon her because she is a Palpatine [furthering her belief that being a Palpatine inherently makes her worthless (which Luke debunks by bringing up Leia)], which would preserve her TLJ arc.
We’ve had this conversation much earlier in this thread. The conclusion we came to is that the reason why her parents needed to be noble is so that Rey would have a reason to want to kill Palpatine. Otherwise, she should technically be thanking him for disposing of her bad parents. In other words, Palpatine needs Rey to kill him out of anger/vengeance in order for the essence transfer to be successful. Having Rey’s parents be bad people undermines this.
I definitely agree that her parents should have abandoned her because they were afraid of her power, but I’m not sure that there is an adequate way to show this to the audience while still having Palpy’s plan not be so nonsensical.
While we’re on the topic of additional lines that might warrant some tweaking, I have a few contenders:
- Rey’s line about “I will earn your brother’s saber…someday.” There’s never been any indication that she felt unworthy using the lightsaber in the previous two movies, and she doesn’t end up “earning” the saber at all; it’s just handed back to her five minutes later. Also, Rey ends up using an entirely different saber in the finale? And she gives Luke’s to Kylo? (The only rationalization I can think of is that it’s subtextually foreshadowing “Ben will earn your brother’s saber”? But that’s unbelievably messy, even by this film’s lofty standards.) I dunno, it doesn’t make much sense. It’s another “Rey, I never told you- Blurgbruglbgrub” - They set something up, and then they forgot to pay it off. Maybe Rey could simply say “Here,” as if she’s just “hanging up” her weapon after practice? Or reverse the footage - Leia gives the saber back to Rey as a show of encouragement? (Implied that Rey gave it to her after the training course out of frustration.)
[WARNING: This will probably go into rant territory. You have been warned…]
You missed the point of Rey’s entire arc. In the years after she was abandoned by her parents, she formed this subconscious, irrational core belief that she is inherently worthless; in other words, she has issues regarding self-esteem. She believes this lie that the only way to feel happy, to feel loved is if she gains approval from others as well as if she pleases others which would then result in said others giving her the validation she desires to make herself feel happy; why do you think she freed BB-8 from Teedo? Why do you think she bypassed the compressor on the Falcon? Why do you think she told Luke that she would not fail him in the way Kylo Ren did?
This 100%.
Hal, did you ever get around to trying to reinstate Luke’s “Some things are stronger than blood. Your spirit, your heart”? If you didn’t think it would work, I think the message is still there to a certain extent, but I still feel that it’s essential to really drive home Testing’s message here that the value of somebody is determined by their heart, not lineage and the other stuff he mentioned like approval.
I’m not saying its great, just that I don’t feel removing it makes things any better.
Oh it’s definitely not a great explanation in terms of this movie being standalone. But in context of the larger saga? It’s absolutely better than nothing. Much better, in fact.
I think Rey feeling unworthy of Luke’s saber plays well into her feeling like she’s not able to live up to Luke’s legend and being the last Jedi, which is a good character arc, especially with the added puppet scene.
This would be great if there were some form of payoff but Leia gives it straight back in the next scene so it kinda makes it pointless.
The payoff is the climax of the movie, where she becomes “all the Jedi”. Suggestions of her feelings of unworthiness are also still present elsewhere in the movie because she leaves herself stranded on Ahch-To.
On the topic of Luke’s line on Leia: “Always in motion is the future”
It was unwise for Leia to give up her training because she sensed the death of her son if she were a Jedi, sure. It was also unwise for Anakin to become a Sith because he sensed the death of his wife. But since these two characters are related, it makes perfect sense IMO that they would make a similar mistake to save a loved one and fail in the process.
- Rey’s line about “I will earn your brother’s saber…someday.” There’s never been any indication that she felt unworthy using the lightsaber in the previous two movies, and she doesn’t end up “earning” the saber at all; it’s just handed back to her five minutes later. Also, Rey ends up using an entirely different saber in the finale? And she gives Luke’s to Kylo? (The only rationalization I can think of is that it’s subtextually foreshadowing “Ben will earn your brother’s saber”? But that’s unbelievably messy, even by this film’s lofty standards.) I dunno, it doesn’t make much sense. It’s another “Rey, I never told you- Blurgbruglbgrub” - They set something up, and then they forgot to pay it off. Maybe Rey could simply say “Here,” as if she’s just “hanging up” her weapon after practice? Or reverse the footage - Leia gives the saber back to Rey as a show of encouragement? (Implied that Rey gave it to her after the training course out of frustration.)
Perhaps she feels bad about being partially responsible for destroying it, and is simply trying to earn the right to wield it again. I agree, it is a little bit of a confusing line, but I personally feel anything that makes Rey a little less all-powerful is a good thing.
- Trimming around Hux’s “I’M THE SPY!!” “*WhAaAaAaAT???” ThisIsCreation had a really solid idea for this on the Redux thread. It’s like “You were a spice runner??” to me - out of place humor that breaks what should be a tense moment. (I know I lost that argument, I’m not trying to restart it.)
I think simply removing Hux’s line, “I’m the spy”, removes most of the forced goofiness and redundancy there. It’s fine for Poe and Finn to be bickering between each other, because they do that all the time (even before death I suppose). But it doesn’t make much sense for Hux himself to be willingly going along with their goofiness as well.
- “Leia sensed the death of her son at the end of her Jedi path.” So she decided not to pursue being a Jedi, which resulted in…the death of her son, her own death, and the rise of the First Order and the destruction of the New Republic at the hands of her son? Way to go, idiot, you played yourself! If Luke just says “She sensed ‘death’ at the end of her Jedi path,” it’s at least vague enough that we can assume the alternative future would have been even worse.
I might be the only one who actually loves this explanation. It totally reminds me of Anakin, who saw the death of his wife in visions. So he turned to the dark side in order to try to save her… which resulted in her death. It’s the exact same concept, only this time Leia thought not being a Jedi would save her son… which resulted in his death anyways because she had to use her Jedi powers eventually.
I mentioned on Hal’s thread at one point that this is absolutely what would have made Palpatine’s plan 100 percent better imo. Funnily enough, early in the film’s production it actually was I’m pretty sure. The reason they got rid of it I think is because otherwise it makes the character’s heroic actions all for nothing in the end. Personally, I’m fine with that. Sometimes, even though we give things our best, they don’t work out.
As for Rey not being a Palpatine, it also removes some of the complicatedness of her backstory. I’ll always prefer to adhere to canon in this regard, but I’m interested to see what you will cook up.
I think if I was editing the novel I would make all references to her as his granddaughter changed to just “daughter”. This would force the reader to understand that Rey’s father was a clone, so biologically she is just his daughter. It might muck up some of the mirroring in their dyad, but oh well.
All the star destroyer stuff takes place within an SNL sketch so what are ya gonna do?
Simple, we put the undercover boss SNL skits into the movies.
This is what happens when you use 100% of your brain right here.
Commendable.
Joking aside, I did actually go through those at one point to find any shots that could be used in edits lol.
Glad to be of assistance 😃
“Were you an orphan?” Poe roasted.
I jest, of course.
How about, “Were you a scrap hoarder?” It’s synonymous with scavenger while still suggesting a slight amount of being immoral - as in, she went out of her way to make sure she got the most portions from turning in scrap at the end of the day while everyone else starved.
That’s the best I’ve got.
EDIT: You could shorten it to just “hoarder” as well if you want.
All of this SNL humor in movies is either going to age like fine wine for some reason or rot into stinky trash. I’m placing all my bets on the latter.
But like I said, I’m willing to let it slide sometimes when it comes to making characters endearing.
That’s a pretty smart method!
Anyways, what I meant by a spice runner being destitute is that usually those who do it have no other choice but to do it in order to survive, just like scavenging. Of course, this isn’t true in Poe’s case so ultimately you’re correct.
I’ll keep thinking!
“I’m the spy” is definitely a goofy line and a bit redundant. I think it was intended to be that way though especially after seeing the behind the scenes documentary of the movie. That line isn’t my cup of tea.
The rest of it I like just because I love the Finn-Poe dynamic so much. I don’t care if their behavior doesn’t match their current circumstances, they’re just goofballs lol.
Glad you both enjoy removing it though.