Jar Jar Bricks

I like all of that quite a bit. I’d have to double check the scenes to make sure there is enough room for them to be spoken, though.

As for the final line, we can look back at what Nev wrote originally as a baseline:

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But we share an unbreakable bond, stronger than he can imagine. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and use his power to forge something new.”

Worth noting that the term “dyad” would be excised in this instance so Rey is at least a little less special. I really love the dyad concept, but it makes less sense without the mirroring of the grandson of Vader and the granddaughter of Palpatine being there. They can still have a strong bond, but it just won’t be named to make this scene less exposition-heavy.

My idea was to replace a Finn line that was removed in v2(?) of Ascendant: “To bring the little girl that he was supposed to bring from Jakku, to the Emperor. To absorb her life-Force.” (Poe then exhales in horror). Both Poe and Finn have already seen Rey transfer life-Force, so this would make sense. This way there isn’t a misunderstanding that he wanted her alive, and we expect Palpatine to drain her immediately upon reaching Exegol, but he tries the possession thing instead first. We might have to cut out Palpatine’s line about “a dyad in the Force, unseen for generations”, but everything else he says is fine since we would be aware of the fact he can use this power regardless of a “dyad”.

Yup, that’s all for the best. Thanks for doing this.

vranir said:

I really like this approach, but some of the proposed exposition could be tightened up.

“You were adopted from the hoard of the Sith” > “She stole you from the Sith.”

“Chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But they couldn’t escape the sweeping shadow of the Sith.” > ?

I was trying to use metaphorical language, in this case a dragon and his treasure hoard, so that all this exposition isn’t so boring to listen to, kinda like the reason Yoda speaks in riddles. Combined with the visions of her parents, the audience should be able to put the pieces together properly. But there is definitely an argument to be made that it makes things too vague in a moment that is supposed to set the record abundantly straight.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. YOU ARE A DARK PERSON AT YOUR CORE. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. SITH CULTS PREY ON DESPERATE/LONELY PEOPLE LIKE THEM.”

“Don’t!”

"YOUR MOTHER WAS INFERTILE AND SAW THAT THERE WAS A PARENTLESS AND IMPORTANT CHILD SHE COULD TAKE AS HER OWN”

“I don’t want this!”

“YOU WERE ADOPTED FROM THE CULT”

“No!”

“BUT STEALING YOU CAUGHT PALPATINE’S ATTENTION”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

"YOUR PARENTS WANTED TO FIND LUKE SKYWALKER FOR PROTECTION AND STARTED BY LOOKING FOR LOR SAN TEKKA IN JAKKU’S DESERTS. PALPATINE’S ASSASSIN CAUGHT UP TO THEM.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

"BECAUSE ONCE HE RETURNED HE NO LONGER NEEDED THAT MANY CLONES - THEY WERE A THREAT TO HIS POWER. YOU’RE ONE OF THESE CLONES.”

“THE ONLY REASON FOR YOUR CREATION WAS TO BE A VESSEL FOR PALPATINE’S SPIRIT ON THE SITH THRONE. BUT WE SHARE AN UNBREAKABLE BOND. TOGETHER WE WILL DESTROY PALPATINE AND MAKE SOMETHING NEW OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT OF THE FINAL ORDER.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

The only line we’ve ever changed spoken on-screen was the whole “lightspeed skipping” thing, and that was only possible because the lip movements were close enough. I’d steer clear of changing words spoken on-screen so you don’t start entering the uncanny valley. Granted, Nev has experience in manipulating mouth movements (both Poe and Finn had modified mouth movements in Starlight) , so it might be possible for what’s going on here.

I think if anybody were to know if Palpatine were lying, it would be Luke’s ghost. I think the fact that he confirms Leia sensed Palpatine’s darkness about her would be enough for the majority of people to buy into the idea. Unfortunately there’s no real way to make this a matter of interpretation without it harming the overall narrative. Finn can definitely still be the one to sell the idea that you can pick your own heritage, though.

Speaking of Finn, I went back and looked at that scene he has with D-O. Unfortunately, he says the entirety of that line on-screen. I’m not sure modifying the beginning of it would be possible, so the Jannah/Lando stuff couldn’t slot in nicely. Currently, all the scene tells us is that Ochi was supposed to bring Rey to Palpatine after finding her since we removed “He wanted her alive”. Now, perhaps he just wanted to be the one to Force-drain her of her life essence to alleviate his failing clone body, that’s definitely possible. Perhaps we could hint at his Force-draining powers a bit earlier so the dyad doesn’t have to be involved by name, and also clear up any misinterpretation that he wanted her alive at that time.

“To bring the little girl that he was supposed to bring from Jakku, to the Emperor. For absorbing her life-Force.” (cue Poe’s sigh of horror).

Then, the audience is expecting Rey to just be drained when she shows up. To instead be confronted by Palpatine being all cheery and goading her into killing him shatters those expectations completely. His priority is to possess her, but when that doesn’t work he resorts to draining the two of them.

The best part about the change is we would only have to modify Kylo’s masked lines to Rey and one Palpatine line he says when his mouth isn’t visible: “It is your birthright to rule… here.” It would be changed to “You were engineered to rule… here.”

Here is a draft of the reveal and force-Bond duel:

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the allure of a Sith cult.”

“Don’t!”

“Your barren mother… she took a liking to their prize jewel…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…you were adopted from the hoard of the Sith.”

“No!”

“But their actions had awakened a sleeping dragon…”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But they couldn’t escape the sweeping shadow of the Sith.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the others created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

Artan42 said:

After Starlight it’s odd to hear Vader’s theme accompanying his helmet rather than Palpatine’s considering who’s actually speaking to Ren through it.

Good idea here.

I did have some issues. One that’s unfixable is the Resistance being back to their TFA strength so soon after TLJ and all the other resets to TFA even down to Rey’s clothes and hair, Abrams really went out of his way to muck up TLJ.

I believe they claimed that the reason they made Rey’s appearance so similar to TFA is for the sake of the reused footage of Leia. But I’m not sure why they couldn’t just use more CGI to make changes possible. As for the Resistance, we are planning on changing Zorri’s dialogue on Kijimi so that it’s clear the people there are rebelling against the First Order ever since Skywalker’s sacrifice. This would help explain why the Resistance is larger than at the end of TLJ.

Palps seeding some clones around the galaxy to use as backups. Rather than Rey being referred to ‘grandchild’ explicitly there must be some way of making it more obvious that one or both of her parents were Palpy clones and it’s unexpected they had a child.

We are currently discussing an idea like this on Nev’s TROS thread. The idea is to maintain Rey’s parents as nobodies because that was the crux of TLJ’s reveal. Rey was only claimed to be a nobody by association in that film. So Rey can be a clone of Palpatine, similar to how Omega is a female clone of Jango Fett, and this way the reveal isn’t retreading ESB and is more pivotal for Rey’s character since she was quite literally created to be a vessel for Palpatine and take the Sith throne. Rey’s parents are nobodies that adopted/rescued her from a Sith cult, similar to how she will be adopted by the Skywalkers at the end of the film. The reason Rey doesn’t see her parents in the mirror cave of TLJ is because she doesn’t have any, biologically speaking - the long line of identical Rey’s is a hint at her nature of being a clone. And the reason Palpatine always wanted her dead is because he was paranoid that one of his clones could take all of his followers or simply have enough power to kill him as Rey eventually does.

And finally have Palpy goading Rey into killing him to fulfil the rule of two as his successor rather than telling her he’s going to posses her. It’s simple for him to prey on her darkness considering what Ren has told him about her toeing the line but I find it fundamentally stupid to tell her he’s going to posses her. It possibly wouldn’t be too difficult to have him play the dying victim like he did with Windu now he’s supposedly found his worthy successor. Obviously his plan remains to possess his clone but he doesn’t tell Rey that.

The above change I mentioned should make it less stupid that he’s telling her his exact plan. Again, if Rey’s sole reason for existence is exactly what he’s describing, it may fill Rey with enough dread and hopelessness to consider actually doing it.

I agree Eddie. It also lines up with what they’re doing with Omega in Bad Batch. So it honestly feels like this is where they should have gone with the story.

I doubt future references to this will refer to her as his granddaughter. I think they’ll keep up with just calling her a Palpatine, if anything.

EDIT: Just realized another thing. The name Rey actually means “King” which doesn’t initially make a lot of sense for a female character. It would make sense, however, given that she is a clone of the Emperor, who is basically a king. How would we feel about reinstating Rey’s name being mentioned in the flashback by her parents? I think this is a better lineup than her getting it from the aurebesh of a Rebel helmet, which most viewers wouldn’t remember let alone comprehend. Children that age would definitely remember their own name. It could be the codename the Sith cultists gave her, like how Omega was given by the Kaminoans. This would be similar to how Darth Vader’s name is a hint to his own character - dark father.

Then the problem would be that Kylo wouldn’t be able to learn everything that he’s conveying to Rey later on about being a clone. Unless you’re referring back to the idea that Kylo would shoot down the idea that she’s related to him at all in the hangar scene, but that’s a distinctly different idea from what we are currently discussing.

I forgot that most of Palp’s dialog there comes from offscreen. I’ll have to add that to the bucket of potential ideas. Poe’s explanation is good enough as-is but I suppose it wouldn’t hurt if it sounds good enough.

I also love the D-O idea, mostly because we already decided that Palps wanting Rey alive from the beginning is not what makes sense. So currently in Ascendant, that scene only serves to tell us information that makes things more confusing. I do seem to remember that line coming from Finn on-screen though, so it would make matching things really difficult. But having Finn’s arc entirely focused on his new stormtrooper pals and Jannah is great. He can still be emotional support for Rey and everything, but it isn’t necessary for him to understand the full picture, at least.

Hey, I mean, as long as you’d be willing to help me in creating a modified version of the Force-bond duel and Kylo scene with the dialogue supporting a cloned Rey idea, I’m certainly not opposed to a version which reveals it all to be a deception by the end - so long as there’s another version which is essentially just Ascendant with these two scene changes slotted in. Granted, Hal hasn’t weighed in on the idea yet, so these two scenes might even end up that way in the v5 of normal Ascendant if good enough. I’m personally not all that interested in Rey being nobody, I’ve already gone into some of the reasons why, but that doesn’t matter for this part of the project, at least.

Here’s where I left off on the last thread:

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the allure of a Sith cult.”

“Don’t!”

“Your barren mother… she took a liking to their prize jewel…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…you were adopted from the hoard of the Sith.”

“No!”

“But their actions had awakened a sleeping dragon…”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But they couldn’t escape the sweeping shadow of the Sith.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the others created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

StarkillerAG said:

I’ll accept the saber point (even if I still think this whole religious reverence for lightsabers was mainly started by the angry fan reaction to TLJ), but didn’t Rian literally say that the reason he came up with the “Luke almost killed Ben” backstory was because Luke wouldn’t just hide away out of fear? It wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction to his mistake that caused Luke to exile himself: he genuinely thought the galaxy would be better with the Jedi gone.

Nah, it was started with Kenobi in AOTC. “This weapon is your life”. As for Rian’s justification, I can see that. But perhaps Luke was referring to the fact that it was fear which led him to consider attacking his nephew? Maybe a better wording of this would be “It was fear that led me here.” Could definitely be dubbed over.

How is Luke raising the X-Wing poetic in any way, other than the most surface level? All it seemed like to me was yet another one of JJ’s beloved “ZOMG I RECOGNIZE THAT THING, I LOVE STAR WAAAAAAAARRRRRRSSSSS!!!” moments, blandly recycling iconic imagery from the OT with no regard for context, emotion, or logic. And Luke probably would have died if he showed up to Crait in person, but he had no way of knowing that. If he had a choice between going to Crait in person and possibly dying, or going to Crait with a life-draining astral projection technique and definitely dying, then he looks like an idiot for choosing the latter.

Because Luke couldn’t do it in ESB. He was angry and exclaimed that it’s impossible. Then Yoda proves him wrong. “Size matters not” and all that. What was impossible for Luke before is possible now. The subtext of the scene is that nothing should be impossible for Rey going forward, as well. This is what Leia is teaching her at the beginning of the movie.
The only explanation for your other point is his earlier line criticizing Rey for thinking he’s gonna face down the whole First Order with a laser sword. Luke probably realized how futile it would be to come in person and wanted to try something special.

This is a good point, but I feel like there could be a way to convey this even in a cut that removes Ach-To. Maybe during the “Be with me” scene, instead of hearing the voices of Jedi she doesn’t even know, Rey could hear Luke and Leia’s voices instead? They could say that despite Rey’s [INSERT SECRET DARK BACKSTORY HERE] (which they would logically know about due to being ghosts), they still have faith in her, and encourage her to rise and face her fears. That way, you could deliver the same emotional payoff originally contained in the Ach-To scene, only in a much more logical place given the main tension of the climax.

Would be interesting and entirely possible. Although the film definitely sets up ALL of the Jedi responding to her due to her first line “I don’t think it’s possible. To hear the voices of the Jedi who came before.” Then Leia responds with what Luke has learned and imparted to her “Nothing’s impossible.” Would definitely be emotionally resonant, but would make the Force ghosts kinda come out of nowhere since some of them wouldn’t have lines. Not worth removing Ahch-To over, either IMO.

• Nothing Luke says disservices where he ended up in TLJ. “A Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect” - yes, he’s poking fun at his old ways. He changed by the end of The Last Jedi. It’s a meta joke at the same time, but that’s besides the point. Plus, it was fear that kept him there. Fear that he’d fail the galaxy again, fear how Leia and Han would react to his actions, etc.
• We are already planning on fixing the Leia knowledge in Ascendant. Especially if Rey is turned into a clone, Leia will begin to recognize the similarities as she trains her. She spent time with Palpatine in the Senate, so she is used to his aura in the Force, even if she wasn’t aware of such a thing at the time. Luke knows because he’s a ghost. They’ve sorta just gained omniscience.
• Luke raising the X-Wing is such poetic imagery for how much his character has grown across the saga it would just be a shame to see it gone. Yes, it doesn’t make the most sense that it’s functional, but he did make the right choice by not using it in TLJ. If he had shown up to those gorilla walkers in-person he would have been dead in 10 seconds flat, Skywalker blood or not. His use of the Force at the end of TLJ really can’t be diminished to just a “that was the only way to intervene” moment. It was the most Jedi-like way to intervene. He never attacked, only using the Force for defense.

EDIT: Oh yeah, also Leia knowing that Rey has such a dark history yet still hedging all of her bets into her regardless is the emotional undercurrent of the whole film. She made the mistake of sending Ben away for her brother to deal with, but this time she takes up the reigns herself and her faith and devotion to Rey is what pays off and saves the galaxy. Otherwise Leia does basically nothing for the plot in what is supposed to be her movie of the triology (TFA was Han, TLJ was Luke, TROS was hers).

And that is an unforgiveable thing to do imo. The way I see it, we have two options here:

1. Leaving things as they are for Rey’s lineage in Ascendant v4. However, this sucks because in no universe is the son of the Emperor ever nobody, so it is a complete retcon. It’s also a retread of the same tired Star Wars trope.
2. New backstory for Rey - A Sith cult created a bunch of different clones of Palpatine to receive his conjured spirit, one of the experimental ones being Rey. A couple of nobodies joins their cult because they are at a low point in their lives. The mother, who is barren, sees baby Rey and wants to take the child as her own. The couple steals her, Ochi’s ship, and go on the run. Palpatine’s spirit is finally summoned to a clone on Exegol, is made aware of the situation, and sends assassins to kill all of his other clones. Rey’s parents go to Jakku to look for Lor San Tekka’s church and a link to Luke Skywalker, and they pay for Rey to be looked after while they search the desert. They’re caught by Ochi, refuse to give up Rey’s location, killed, and buried in a pauper’s grave.

RogueLeader said:

I feel like there are tons of movies and stories are out there where our hero has to confront the villain and be tempted to join their side and they’re not related to the villain.

Yes, but this is a different situation. The film is giving Rey as a character literally everything she could ever want on a silver platter leading up to her confrontation with Palpatine. Leia is revealed to support Rey beyond all measure, Luke is telling her that a thousand generations of Jedi live in her now, etc. Legitimately the only thing that could ever tempt her to even consider Palpatine’s request is if she believed it were her fate, or her very nature, to give in to his demands. Ascendant already alleviates this quite a bit by giving her a vision of just her on the throne. The problem with her being the “granddaughter” of Palpatine is that we already know you can be the offspring of an evil person and still be a fantastic person in life, namely Leia in new canon. That’s why this is such a good idea. If Rey were manufactured using Sith alchemy and cloning specifically to be a suitable vessel for Palpatine, her confrontation with him quite literally defines why she was made in the first place. It’s much more harsh and uncomfortable to have to deal with - especially after being told that her anger towards Palpatine for killing her loving, adoptive parents means she can’t hope to defeat him without being possessed. At that moment, she begins to doubt Luke and Leia’s guidance, no matter how thoughtful it was, that perhaps her vision of the future was true and she must conform to her destiny.

The problem with your idea is that it makes things incredibly murky imo. Rey isn’t even revealed to be a Palpatine until the tail end of the hangar scene, so why should it even be mentioned there that Palpatine intended to lie about her being one there if Kylo immediately shuts it down in the next sentence? When Palpatine later starts his whole “Empress Palpatine” spiel, all Rey has to say is: “Nah, Kylo and Luke told me that’s false. Besides, Leia has always been more accepting of me. Look, I brought these two lightsabers with me that she gifted to me, why don’t you just start shooting some lightning at me so I can reflect it back at you?”

The problem with Rey Nobody is that it benefited the narrative of TLJ, but runs counterintuitive to the dilemma of Rey striking down Palpatine to take the Sith throne. Allow me to explain. If Rey is a nobody, that means she is free to make her own legacy. She gets to decide how to go forward from there with absolutely no restrictions whatsoever. That’s what makes Kylo’s offer so enticing to her in TLJ - they get to make something new together. Confronted with striking down Palpatine, if she’s a nobody, the only thing he can offer her is a sense of belonging - with the shadowy cloaked figures watching them whom she’s never met in her life. In this scenario, Rey is just coming out of a conversation with Luke about how Leia has so much faith in her that she wants her to carry on her Jedi path. The only thing that could shake that foundation just a bit is if Rey is related to him, or the stronger of the two, Rey was literally created from a vat to sit on that throne and is a clone of Palpatine. Adopted by nobody parents to rescue her, only to be later adopted by the Skywalkers.

Now, yes, Rey being a chosen one who determines the fate of the galaxy - Vader or Anakin style - would allow her to be a nobody and still have some semblance of temptation. The problem with that idea is you have to cut out so much of the conversation between Rey and Palpatine (among other things), and I remain unconvinced that any of this would feel natural in a movie with such rushed pacing as it stands. The conversation between her and Luke on Ahch-To, for instance, wouldn’t have a lot going on because it would have to remove “some things [being] stronger than blood” and Leia seeing her spirit and heart to counteract something negative about her.

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. But Palpatine must have been evil enough to kill a mentor of his in his sleep. Plus whatever other bad things he did as a Sith apprentice. By your logic, the apprentice would still be himself fully. So he’s undeniably evil even before becoming the master of the Sith. Maybe we’ll see more about all of this in the upcoming Acolyte show.

Hmmm. The thing about that scene is technically it could be placed just about anywhere we want before they get the Falcon back. Is there anywhere else between these two time periods that might need a second to stop for a moment, even if it is a somewhat pointless one?

Some places I’m thinking of:

• Immediately after they escape the cave system
• After the crew takes off from Pasaana.

EDIT: Just tested placing after Pasaana, there’s too much tonal whiplash. So the best location would be after they escape the cave and after we see the Knights of Ren. I tested that and it works well as a buffer for the next part of the movie - the KoR are imposing enough to warrant a scene about worrying for the characters. We even have an establishing shot of the landscape in the edit there that would allow for a smooth transition back to Pasaana.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the alluring promises of a Sith cult.”

“Don’t!”

“Your barren mother… she took a liking to their prize jewel…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…you were adopted from the hoard of the Sith.”

“No!”

“But their actions had awakened a sleeping dragon…”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But they couldn’t escape the sweeping shadow of the Sith.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the others created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

I’m still pretty sure Palpatine was just himself throughout all of his life. Essence transfer requires that ritual we saw at the end of TROS. And we all know Palpatine only killed his master in his sleep. That was the whole reason he likely did it - his master wouldn’t have enough time or awareness to even attempt a transfer like that.

Back to the Rey background idea. I’m thinking it might actually be a better idea that Rey is still a Palpatine clone/experiment, except she came from a vat like the rest of them. Rey’s parents got drawn into the Sith cult because they’re desperate nobodies, adopt her, and have a change of heart - going on the run. So this way it isn’t the first time that Rey has been adopted.

The original movie placed the Leia scene after they had sunk down but before they were shown to be okay. I would recommend putting it back there because the whole point of the scene is the characters being worried that everybody is dead.

Burbin said:

The thing is, it’s clear Rey is not a 1:1 clone of Palpatine, since, you know, she’s not a younger Ian McDiarmid. She would just have been a creation based off of Palpatine’s genes, at that point what’s the difference from being her decendant? Nothing says she’ll become just like him since she’s already not exactly like him.

Furthermore, and this is an issue that would plague any version of the film that implies a genetic relation to Palpatine: the villain of the movie isn’t Palpatine, it is the countless generations of Sith spirits that once resided within him and now inhabit his rotting clone. It makes no sense to imply Rey is destined to become evil just because she’s genetically related to Palpatine, when the reason he’s so evil are those countless spirits that took over him. This is also why I like the chosen one idea. I mean, it was prophesized the chosen one would “destroy the Sith”, and now we have a movie where the villain is the literal embodiment of the Sith, it just makes too much sense.

You’re being nitpicky on the first point. The fact of the matter is that the majority of her DNA would come from Palpatine (maybe 95%). A normal child would only share about 50 percent, a grandchild 25 percent, etc. Your second point doesn’t make sense. Palpatine wasn’t “all the Sith” until he was summoned with the rest of his pals from Force hell. Everything he did in the prequels and originals he did because that’s the kind of dude he was. Plus, canon has never made it clear who exactly is in control of his body in TROS. We know all the Sith are in there somewhere, but he really does seem to be speaking and using the same mannerisms as Palpatine did in life.

I don’t think this does much to make Palpatine’s return more clear, now we’re adding a bunch of extra clones that look nothing like him, and that apparently have nothing to do with the installations on Exegol? And they weren’t grown on a vat like we see on Exegol or Kamino, but were somehow bred inside random women?? if anything it makes it more weird and confusing.

That’s the point - it’s supposed to be weird science, anyway. Confusing? No. It’s simply adding a timeline to the development of Palpatine’s return. At first, some Sith cults tried to develop Palpatine clones outside of Exegol using this method, but they couldn’t conjure his spirit into them. Meanwhile, whatever they did on Exegol succeeded. Once Palpatine was aware of what transpired, he wanted all these other experiments killed off.

Again this does nothing to avoid undoing the big reveal in TLJ, we’re just dealing with semantics at this point, “well Kylo only kinda assumed Rey was a nobody, he couldn’t have possibly known Rey was a genetic experiment done by Sith cultists plotting to bring back Palpatine’s spirit… but his parents were really nobodies!”, how is that any better than Kylo not knowing some random junk trader he saw was the son of Emperor Palpatine, who chose to become a random junk trader?

I was under the assumption that the visions Kylo and Rey received were supernatural through the Force in some way. Because clearly they are seeing into the future, as well. So the idea is that Kylo would have been able to sense through the Force, or the Force would have told him, if there were something special about Rey’s father. Regardless of whatever path he chose in life. And please don’t say “oh, but he would have sensed Rey’s nature then” because the purpose of his vision, and that whole movie, is Rey’s obsession with her parents, not her own nature.

And this is the lesson, this wouldn’t require further changes because it doesn’t fundamentally change much from Rey just being Palpatine’s granddaughter. It doesn’t really solve the issues people have with that reveal, it just adds more lore dump exposition and turns Rey into a weird Sith breeding experiment.

I meant that it doesn’t require removing even more things from the film or modifying more lines. Although I have a feeling you already knew that. Back to the main point. It doesn’t fundamentally alter her reveal - yes. And that’s the entire point. All it does is make it more poignant and devastating. Although it seems you disagree with that. It’s okay though. We’re just throwing ideas around here.

Nev is right that we are having a Rey Nobody vs. Rey Palpatine debate at this point. It’s not worth continuing it anymore. This thread is currently discussing ways to improve the Rey Palpatine version.

I disagree strongly. Here are some of the numerous benefits to this change:

1. It’s not a copy-paste of “I am your father”. Instead of the reveal simply being a relative is evil, the reveal is that you, as a person, are extremely evil in what is basically another life. This gets into the whole nature vs. nuture debate. Rey’s challenges can’t be dismissed as easily by Luke anymore because nobody has ever gone through what she is experiencing.
2. It makes it abundantly clear how Palpatine was resurrected. Ya know, the thing that people most take issue with in the film. As a bonus, it’s more heavily implied what Snoke is exactly compared to Ascendant v4.
3. TLJ only places a hard emphasis on Rey’s parents. Notice how Kylo only says he was shown who her parents are - not who she is. Beyond that, everything he says must be taken as assumptions he is making. Let’s take a look at Kylo’s following line: “You come from nothing. [Therefore] you’re nothing.” He’s only saying that because any normal person would think that since the people who raised her and gave birth to her are nobodies, she must be one, as well. Regular TROS straight up retcons this because the son of the Emperor is not nobody - end of story. This change is a clever way of bypassing a complete retcon for the sake of a Rey Palpatine reveal. Rey’s mother gave birth to a clone of Palpatine, but both parents are genetically unrelated to her.
4. TLJ’s mirror cave sequence is a stupid scene originally. This change elevates it into an actual hint to her entire backstory and the trajectory of the trilogy. We see that Rey is one among an endless line of clones. Rey asks to see her parents. She doesn’t have actual parents, so she sees herself.
5. There is a reason why Rey’s parents die on Jakku (or are there to begin with). They were looking for Lor San Tekka and his village so that their child could be saved by Luke. This ties back to the very first scene of the entire trilogy.
6. Leia accepting Rey into her family is more profound. Of course the daughter of Darth Vader would be willing to accept the granddaughter of Sidious. But a clone of Sidious? That’s something else.
7. It doesn’t require any further changes beyond this scene and what’s already present in Ascendant v4.

To be clear, I don’t believe Rey being a chosen one is a bad idea. I was a big supporter of it just a few weeks ago. But when I think about what kind of edit to this movie I want to keep for the rest of my life, it would be one that respects canon to a reasonable degree for the sake of compatibility, and also doesn’t remove chunks of the film throughout. The movie desperately needs more padding throughout (please release the deleted scenes Disney) so removing stuff is only going to make that feel even worse.

I would ordinarily agree with you Burbin - your idea makes the most sense in terms of storytelling, but we are working with extremely limited material in this movie. Which is why I’m leaning toward opposing anything that doesn’t have Rey related to Palpatine in some way. Anything else would simply have to cut too much out of the movie for my liking. Plus, I’m concerned about how the upcoming Rey movie will handle this issue. I think the idea we’ve come up with here is a solid middle ground between Rey’s parents being nobody and her still being a Palpatine. Because in no world is the “son” of the Emperor ever nobody. It also makes Palpatine’s return make 1000x more sense than what we currently have in Ascendant. Here’s where I’m at rn:

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the alluring promises of a Sith cult.”

“Don’t!”

“The woman you called mother…she was merely the host…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…for birthing a dark experiment.”

“No!”

“But she loved you nonetheless.”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“They sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But your parents couldn’t escape the long shadow of the Sith.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the hundreds created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”