The original movie placed the Leia scene after they had sunk down but before they were shown to be okay. I would recommend putting it back there because the whole point of the scene is the characters being worried that everybody is dead.
The thing is, it’s clear Rey is not a 1:1 clone of Palpatine, since, you know, she’s not a younger Ian McDiarmid. She would just have been a creation based off of Palpatine’s genes, at that point what’s the difference from being her decendant? Nothing says she’ll become just like him since she’s already not exactly like him.
Furthermore, and this is an issue that would plague any version of the film that implies a genetic relation to Palpatine: the villain of the movie isn’t Palpatine, it is the countless generations of Sith spirits that once resided within him and now inhabit his rotting clone. It makes no sense to imply Rey is destined to become evil just because she’s genetically related to Palpatine, when the reason he’s so evil are those countless spirits that took over him. This is also why I like the chosen one idea. I mean, it was prophesized the chosen one would “destroy the Sith”, and now we have a movie where the villain is the literal embodiment of the Sith, it just makes too much sense.
You’re being nitpicky on the first point. The fact of the matter is that the majority of her DNA would come from Palpatine (maybe 95%). A normal child would only share about 50 percent, a grandchild 25 percent, etc. Your second point doesn’t make sense. Palpatine wasn’t “all the Sith” until he was summoned with the rest of his pals from Force hell. Everything he did in the prequels and originals he did because that’s the kind of dude he was. Plus, canon has never made it clear who exactly is in control of his body in TROS. We know all the Sith are in there somewhere, but he really does seem to be speaking and using the same mannerisms as Palpatine did in life.
I don’t think this does much to make Palpatine’s return more clear, now we’re adding a bunch of extra clones that look nothing like him, and that apparently have nothing to do with the installations on Exegol? And they weren’t grown on a vat like we see on Exegol or Kamino, but were somehow bred inside random women?? if anything it makes it more weird and confusing.
That’s the point - it’s supposed to be weird science, anyway. Confusing? No. It’s simply adding a timeline to the development of Palpatine’s return. At first, some Sith cults tried to develop Palpatine clones outside of Exegol using this method, but they couldn’t conjure his spirit into them. Meanwhile, whatever they did on Exegol succeeded. Once Palpatine was aware of what transpired, he wanted all these other experiments killed off.
Again this does nothing to avoid undoing the big reveal in TLJ, we’re just dealing with semantics at this point, “well Kylo only kinda assumed Rey was a nobody, he couldn’t have possibly known Rey was a genetic experiment done by Sith cultists plotting to bring back Palpatine’s spirit… but his parents were really nobodies!”, how is that any better than Kylo not knowing some random junk trader he saw was the son of Emperor Palpatine, who chose to become a random junk trader?
I was under the assumption that the visions Kylo and Rey received were supernatural through the Force in some way. Because clearly they are seeing into the future, as well. So the idea is that Kylo would have been able to sense through the Force, or the Force would have told him, if there were something special about Rey’s father. Regardless of whatever path he chose in life. And please don’t say “oh, but he would have sensed Rey’s nature then” because the purpose of his vision, and that whole movie, is Rey’s obsession with her parents, not her own nature.
And this is the lesson, this wouldn’t require further changes because it doesn’t fundamentally change much from Rey just being Palpatine’s granddaughter. It doesn’t really solve the issues people have with that reveal, it just adds more lore dump exposition and turns Rey into a weird Sith breeding experiment.
I meant that it doesn’t require removing even more things from the film or modifying more lines. Although I have a feeling you already knew that. Back to the main point. It doesn’t fundamentally alter her reveal - yes. And that’s the entire point. All it does is make it more poignant and devastating. Although it seems you disagree with that. It’s okay though. We’re just throwing ideas around here.
Nev is right that we are having a Rey Nobody vs. Rey Palpatine debate at this point. It’s not worth continuing it anymore. This thread is currently discussing ways to improve the Rey Palpatine version.
I disagree strongly. Here are some of the numerous benefits to this change:
To be clear, I don’t believe Rey being a chosen one is a bad idea. I was a big supporter of it just a few weeks ago. But when I think about what kind of edit to this movie I want to keep for the rest of my life, it would be one that respects canon to a reasonable degree for the sake of compatibility, and also doesn’t remove chunks of the film throughout. The movie desperately needs more padding throughout (please release the deleted scenes Disney) so removing stuff is only going to make that feel even worse.
I would ordinarily agree with you Burbin - your idea makes the most sense in terms of storytelling, but we are working with extremely limited material in this movie. Which is why I’m leaning toward opposing anything that doesn’t have Rey related to Palpatine in some way. Anything else would simply have to cut too much out of the movie for my liking. Plus, I’m concerned about how the upcoming Rey movie will handle this issue. I think the idea we’ve come up with here is a solid middle ground between Rey’s parents being nobody and her still being a Palpatine. Because in no world is the “son” of the Emperor ever nobody. It also makes Palpatine’s return make 1000x more sense than what we currently have in Ascendant. Here’s where I’m at rn:
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”
“You’re lying.”
“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the alluring promises of a Sith cult.”
“Don’t!”
“The woman you called mother…she was merely the host…”
“I don’t want this!”
“…for birthing a dark experiment.”
“No!”
“But she loved you nonetheless.”
(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”
“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”
“Stop talking.”
“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“They sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But your parents couldn’t escape the long shadow of the Sith.”
(Rey sees her parents get killed.)
“So that’s where you are.”
“You know why the Emperor wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”
…
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the hundreds created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”
“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
I’ve always interpreted the ghosts holding up their hands as them using the Force to keep Palpatine’s spirit trapped within his body. I’m not sure how we can make that more clear. Maybe a VFX change around Palpy? As for your other point, the reason Kylo needs to be the initial target of Palpatine is because it doesn’t make much sense for him to still want to kill Rey at this point, otherwise. Kylo is already closer to the dark, a more suitable host. He’s spent the past 20 years twisting his mind with the voices in his head. It’s why he mentions that the “Princess of Alderaan has disrupted [his] plan” after Kylo becomes Ben.
The only other complaint I have is that it might not be extremely clear Rey’s mother did give birth to her, but isn’t genetically related. We’re trying to avoid the false impression that they simply adopted a clone of Palps, because the Sith cult could do that themselves.
EDIT: I think I also preferred that they “couldn’t escape the shadow of the Sith.” Destiny doesn’t usually relate to death.
I like your first two suggestions. But, again, Rey must be viable for the sake of the plot. Nev’s explanation makes the most sense there.
What I like most about this idea is that it isn’t a complete retcon of TLJ. It’s just a clever way of taking the reveals in that movie, leaving them (mostly) the way they are, and expanding on them. The people she knows as her parents are the most unknown people in the galaxy - probably getting drunk all the time to bide their time. Kylo misinterprets currency being handed between Unkar and them as her being sold, but they instead paid for her to be looked after while they searched for Lor San Tekka. Her vision in TLJ’s mirror cave can’t show her parents because she doesn’t have any. Snoke likely knew her true identity and that’s why he wanted her killed - more competition for himself. And most importantly, it’s a dramatic reveal that is so distinct from merely being a descendant of somebody evil. It stings so much more to be told you, for all intents and purposes, ARE them.
I love that one. Explains everything very neatly. No recommendations.
There might be enough room to squeeze another sentence at the end there. Maybe something about the throne? I’m not sure.
I do like your modifications to the beginning. But my wording at the end is very specifically referencing the following: “Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.”
I found it ironic how the past is quite literally coming back to life in this movie. He’s basically telling her that standing idly by isn’t going to solve her problems here. She has to confront him. Which, funnily enough, is the same advice Luke later gives her.
Here’s where I’m standing atm: “The experiments to resurrect Palpatine created Snoke, and you. But after his rebirth, Palpatine would keep the Sith throne at any cost, even his heirs. Our bond goes beyond all this, Rey. The past won’t die on its own. We must kill it. And make a new future for ourselves.”
I guess I’ll start with a draft:
“Palpatine’s twisted experiments to cheat death created Snoke, but also you. But to secure his claim to the Sith throne, he was willing to do anything, even terminate his dark progeny. Our bond is beyond that, Rey. The past won’t die off. Not anymore. We have to kill it. Together.”
DOUBLE POST
Yeah, but then you miss out on the explanation of Palpatine hunting down other cloned children of his, which is arguably more relevant to the plot.
I like this idea, it seems like a great way to include Rey Palpatine in a way that makes a little more sense. I think it would be cool to also do a complete Rey nobody version that focuses on the Dyad and the rule of two, removing the Palpatine connection entirely. There’s so many possibilities now!
Yup, I drafted what that would look like a few pages back. At that point, I’d honestly have a hard choice picking between the two options.
A lot of that is an improvement over what I wrote, but you definitely need to replace “unwanted children” with “dark children”.
I’m also not sure what Kylo’s motivation is in your version. Yeah, he wants to kill Palpatine with her, but then what? That’s why I did a callback to TLJ in my version. He still clearly wants to let old things die, and wants Rey by his side regardless of the recent revelations.
That can’t be the case because he threatens Kylo with the possibility of possessing him and of course is clearly intent on possessing Rey at the end of the movie.
In all likelihood Snoke wasn’t deformed at one point but he degraded due to Palpy’s possession. So he killed all of the kids that would stand to threaten him before realizing Snoke was also imperfect, but necessary until he could get Kylo to him.
EDIT: I think I’ve spotted the difference here. Snoke and Palpy’s current clone were created at the size they are and possibly both without a soul for easier possession. Whereas these children clones have to grow and have their own free will in the process. It works and makes sense.
Maybe I can re-write that to make it more clear. The current explanation is “because he grew to fear what his followers had spawned”. So basically he realized he was creating clones with the same potential as him in life, except he is currently a ghost trapped in a dying clone. That isn’t going to end well for Palpatine prime - one of the others would take over. Perhaps he didn’t trust that his followers wouldn’t just betray him and begin following one of the other clones.
EDIT: Maybe jealousy is a better way to convey this idea over fear? “Because he grew jealous of what his followers had spawned. Those children had his power.”
Here’s a v2 of the dialog:
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.”
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I know the rest of your story, Rey…"
“You’re lying.”
“You were right… your parents were no one. The most ideal candidates for your birth.”
“Don’t!”
“Your mother wasn’t the only one selected to deliver a child like you…”
“I don’t want this!”
“You endangered your parents.”
“No!”
“Remember them… see them…”
(Same flashback as in original film with her mom’s face swapped for a different actress - preferably a different ethnicity)
“They paid for your protection… in more than one way…”
“Stop talking.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“Palpatine sent assassins to track down children like you. He found your parents. But they wouldn’t say where you were. So he gave the order.”
(Vision of Rey’s parents getting killed - face swapped again)
“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead? I’ll come tell you.”
…
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“Because he grew to fear what his followers had spawned. Those children had his power. You… are his clone.”
“Snoke was the only genetic strand-cast spared from his purge. You have a greater claim to the Sith throne than Palpatine’s current shell. But we can still let old things die. Together. And take his fleet for ourselves."
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
I do wonder if Rey Nobody would be more up to his speed. But for a first viewing you definitely should start with the more conservative edit. If it doesn’t pan out, be sure to mention the alternative edit.
I haven’t tried editing around those yet, but doesn’t Rey start making that squinty face right before they happen? Like she’s starting to see something? I was also under the impression that trying to remove these would make things way too disjointed and fast-paced there.
Yeah… maybe.
One other thing I just realized is that they clearly cast Rey’s mom to look similar to her. Which is problematic in the case that she is genetically unrelated to her. So we would probably need to deep fake her with some other actress.
While I agree, I’m mostly thinking ahead to the end of the movie. As it stands, there needs to be at least some reason why Palpatine is able to fully restore himself. If Palpatine can just suck off (poorly worded, I know) anybody he wants to then he would have returned to full strength much sooner. It’s only the dyad that is able to grant him the good life juice.
And yes, I love the whole twisted science aspect of all this. It slots Rey as a character right in with two of the big bads of the trilogy. Palpatine’s baby purge also kinda reminds me of King Herod killing all the baby boys to stop Jesus. Fitting analogy for the season right now, I suppose.
Here’s what I’m thinking so far:
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I know the rest of your story, Rey…"
“You’re lying.”
“You were right… your parents were no one. That’s what made them such ideal candidates.”
“Don’t!”
“Your mother wasn’t the only one selected to birth a child like you…”
“I don’t want this!”
“You endangered your parents.”
“No!”
“Remember them… see them…”
(Same flashback as in original film… perhaps a few flashes of Lor San Tekka?)
“They paid for your protection… in more than one way…”
“Stop talking.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“Palpatine sent assassins to track down children like you. He found your parents. But they wouldn’t say where you were. So he gave the order.”
(Vision of Rey’s parents getting killed.)
“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead? I’ll come tell you.”
…
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“Because he grew to fear what his followers had spawned. Those children had his power. You… are his clone.”
“Snoke was the only genetic strand-cast Palpatine spared. You’re his loose end. What he doesn’t know, is Snoke unwittingly sparked a dyad in the Force between us, Rey. Two that are one. We’ll kill him. Together."
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
I actually really like that. Even more than what we got, actually. It would line up with all future projects wherein Rey is referred to as a Palpatine, while at the same time her “parents” really are nobodies. It matches with her TLJ vision in the cave, too. She doesn’t really have any parents; she’s just Rey.
It also lines up with the books better than the movie does. In canon, Rey’s dad is a strandcast, a genetically modified clone of Palpatine. But that just makes it confusing to refer to her as Palpy’s granddaughter because, biologically speaking, she’s actually his daughter. But with this idea, instead of her dad being the strandcast, SHE is the strandcast. I suppose you wouldn’t mind using that word to make it clear she’s not a 100% clone, but rather a 95-99% clone? It would make my nerd brain happy.
I was playing Starfield when it first came out a few months ago and there’s a storyline similar to this. There’s a girl named Hadrian who is actually a clone of her “father”, a facist military leader called Vae Victus. She is the only living “clone” of his after the rest died off. She thinks he was killed, but it turns out he was secretly kept alive by his followers. Sound familiar?
EDIT: Omg, we could also finally confirm that Snoke is a strandcast in the movie, as well. Maybe he was one of the only other surrogate children of Palpatine that survived? And Rey was super lucky to not be born all deformed like that.
Hmmm. I see what you’re trying to do there - giving more reason for the ending scene. But the revelation isn’t particularly shocking for Rey to hear, which is how she reacts in the hangar scene. Plus, most people wouldn’t believe her so it really wouldn’t spead around enough to reach Palps. And even if it did reach him, why would he actually believe that it was true despite so much evidence to the contrary (Luke is committed to being a Jedi, Han and Leia only have one son).
EDIT: I’m also not sure why pushing her in the desert was supposed to hint all this to her. Clearly that line is referencing some sort of innate darkness about her.
Yeah, I get that. Luke revealing that Leia knew Rey’s secret the whole time was the thing keeping me from thinking this edit was perfect.
I’ll set aside my disdain for it momentarily. The thing about lightspeed skipping is that if you keep it the way canon explains it for future Star Wars projects post TROS, they’ll have to explain every single time somebody makes a jump to escape from an enemy why the ship isn’t tracked immediately. Hell, maybe this is why Kylo knows they’re going to Endor and not because of the dagger. It’s like opening up a giant can of worms that TLJ actually explained and put proper weight to until this happened.
I am satisfied with the line from the second version. It replicates the way that Carrie whispers the best at the end of the line. I’ve done hundreds of generations and haven’t gotten a similar result anywhere else.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HJVzot6mTzlUYWbOqXKVzwsRvxk0UqrW?usp=sharing
Personally, if I had to pick between keeping this line or adding in the “come home” later on and using Sherlock’s v2 version of this scene (to prevent AI line overabundance), I’d probably prefer the latter. But it’s up to you.