Jar Jar Bricks

We’re entering the territory of personal interpretation at this point, so I think we need to go back to the line itself.

“Because you’re a Palpatine? Nobody can claim those the Force made. That choice belongs to you.”

Is there any particular reason that this doesn’t work? At least from my perspective, Rey’s destiny is intertwined with Palpatine’s claim over her. So we essentially get the same interpretation out of this without opening up this huge can of worms concerning destiny in Star Wars.

EDIT: One other thing worth noting. Notice how Rey doesn’t say that her greatest fear is ending up on the throne. She says her greatest fear is herself. This is why Luke’s response directly has to answer why she as a person is not the same as Palpatine. In other words, this definitely isn’t the time to steer the conversation back to her vision/destiny.

If that were the case, hinventon, then he would have been chill with Rey leaving to try to save Ben, or even communicating with him in the first place. Luke once did the same thing with Vader, so he should logically have no reason to protest this. The only way any of this makes sense is if Luke truly believes Kylo can’t be saved during the events of TLJ, and realizes a loophole in TROS - that being true love for others being enough to draw you out of a dark fate.

Thanks for doing that, krlozdac. It sounds great! I’ll definitely include that in the edit.

losthead said:

I’m not sure Anakin disproves that, though. He very well might have been able to resist Palpatine alone, but he chose the Dark Side. I think the importance choice in one’s fate is something that shouldn’t be understated. Rey could easily fall the same way as Anakin and Ben, and she’s been manipulated by Palpatine the same way, but its her choice not to that decides her destiny.

The trouble would then be that Luke’s decision to isolate himself on Ahch-To is really stupid. All he has to do that whole time is tell Kylo that his fate isn’t set in stone, and that he gets to make his own. Instead, Luke tells Leia AND Rey that he essentially is irredeemable because of what he saw in his future.

“This is not going to go the way you think.”

“I’ve come to confront him. But I can’t save him.”

He never tells Kylo to reconsider things when he projects himself on Crait, so there’s clearly something there that can’t be undone in terms of his destiny. At least until Luke becomes aware of the dyad.

EDIT: For clarification, all of this in TLJ is likely residual of setting things up for the DotF script. Kylo WAS indeed supposed to be irredeemable in Episode IX, with no chance to be saved. So TROS desperately needs a reason, even if it is kinda half-assed, as to why something as unavoidable as fate can be overcome by BOTH Rey and Ben.

TL;DR - Destiny may set the stage, but it is the characters’ connections that ultimately define their paths.

But Palpatine is only ever claiming her and Anakin as his own because he may or may not have done a Build-a-Bear while the Force was making them, choosing what “pieces” to add. The argument is whether that makes them entirely his or not. I really think Luke needs to disavow this notion, since they are autonomous people who can decide these things for themselves.

I’ve already explained the destiny side of things through the dyad. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to suggest a person can overcome that alone, as Anakin’s story proves otherwise. I think the idea that strong connections through the Force can break fate and foresight lines up nicely within the saga. Palpatine never saw Vader betraying him in his last moments because it was spurred by the love between a father and son. And Rey is stopped from striking down Palpatine and fulfilling her destiny because her and Ben share a more romantic love.

Here’s how that would sound:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZaL9WFfyBjS9Pw4eS3KpO6sptsTRkxou/view?usp=sharing

I think even in the case that Palpatine instilled an extra dose of the dark side when he ordered Rey and Anakin through the Midi-chlorian Express, they would still only belong to the Force itself, as Palpatine is not the dark side personified, he’s just all the Sith. So I think this works quite well, all things considered. It’s about detaching the will of the Force from those who try to wield it. True, Rey does choose to be a Jedi, but it wasn’t forced upon her (no pun intended) like in the case of Anakin.

My intent was to convey that, despite Palpatine’s attempts to manipulate and claim dominion over individuals made by the Force, ultimately, it’s the choices of those individuals, like Rey, that define their paths. This aligns with the idea that the Force itself is beyond the control of any one party, be it the Sith or the Jedi.

However, I see how the wording might suggest a more partisan view of the Force, which wasn’t my intention. Luke’s journey in TLJ taught him about the balance of the Force and the errors in the Jedi’s previous ways. So, in reflecting on that, perhaps a more fitting line would emphasize the neutrality and balance of the Force, rather than suggesting it belongs to any specific side. Maybe something like, “Nobody can claim those the Force made. That choice belongs to you.” This could better reflect Luke’s evolved understanding of the Force as something that isn’t ‘owned’ or overly partisan, but rather exists as a balance, with individuals playing a role in maintaining or disrupting that balance through their choices.

Here’s how that might look:

Rey: “I saw myself on the dark throne. I won’t let it happen, I’m doing what you did.”
Luke: “I was wrong. Pushing Ben toward that throne was my greatest fear. What are you most afraid of?”
Rey: “Myself.”
Luke: “Because you’re a Palpatine? He has no claim over what belongs to the Force. That is for you to decide. Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost…”

This helps make Rey taking on the Skywalker name a heck of a lot better, so I’m down with this change even though it forgoes some Palpatine shenanigans.

Thanks for pointing out the hood thing, I think that has led me to decide that we should replace their exchange there with more action. Perhaps the Vader shot and line can stay, but Kylo’s response would have to go. His hood comes off later mid-swing, which makes sense enough to me.

As for Luke’s line, I think we might have to go back to a previous draft of the line I had: “He cannot claim what belongs to the Force.” It would be disappointing, to me at least, that Palpatine cannot twist what Luke directly says about their destiny (being to end him) into something that serves his own purposes, but it’s whatever. I guess the concept is still there if you read into it a bit.

It makes sense to me at least, seeing as how Anakin was born around the time that Palpatine was rising to power, and Rey was born as Palpatine cheats death.

Saying that they were made to “end the Sith” instead could work since it actually aligns exactly with what Rey tells Palpatine later on. The only problem is that it makes the case that Palpatine had any part in creating them pretty weak, despite the manipulation he tries on Rey. Using something extremely vague like what you said would actually be an admission that they DO belong to Palpatine, so he definitely has to say “The Force made us”.

The reason Luke’s line is so on the nose is because it needs to be. It needs to dispell the notion that Palpatine created them, at least for the moment. “To bring balance” would work, except for the fact that we need to reestablish the stakes when Rey confronts Palpatine. Rey logically needs to tell him exactly what Luke tells her, that she was made to end him. That’s when he informs her that he always wanted her to kill him, so Rey can wonder if perhaps Luke was wrong that the Force made them for purely good purposes. It re-opens the door to Palpatine manipulating the Force to his will in creating that life. It’s the second twist of the movie that needs to be there no matter what. A more subtle line would make the good perspective on their origin the objective truth, which is what I’m trying to avoid.

And yeah I can definitely remove the Knights thing. It was just something I was experimenting with. But I do think “Most impressive” works pretty well.

I think the majority of the 20 seconds would have to be included due to continuity, so it wouldn’t be just a couple extra swings. I CAN remove the extra shaky cam shot, lowering it down to about 16 seconds. We definitely don’t want that in this movie because that’s not JJ’s style. There is a tiny bit of shaky cam in one of the shots that would need to stay, but it’s not that noticeable. And plus I believe some people on the forum know how to stabilize those a bit.

EDIT: It’s actually only 13 seconds extra, so I think I’m willing to do this.

I just checked, and there is about 20 seconds of them fighting I could potentially add back in. Most of it is pretty basic parrying and swinging, though. I could give it a try, but I’d like to hear some other people’s thoughts, too. Is it worth adding in even more runtime to what I already added, or should some of that dialogue be removed in favor of some action?

I believe the biggest problem we were trying to avoid is that some of the choreography looks fan-made. We also don’t want this to get too long or it will be too obvious that this wasnt constructed for a movie.

It’s possible there’s too much dialogue at the moment, so the ideal solution would actually be to just cut out the new exchange I made. This way the ratio of dialgue to action is more in line.

Alrighty, this is the longest I’m comfortable with making the Vader duel. Obviously a lot of stuff is still unfinished, but it’s watchable at this point. In the moment, the viewer is meant to believe that Kylo’s greatest fear is not being as strong as Darth Vader, as stated in TFA. But, as we later learn in this edit, Rey is basically the same in terms of raw power as Anakin. So Kylo and “Vader’s” conversation in this scene has a double meaning, in that Vader/Palpatine is claiming they both know Rey is stronger than Kylo, and more worthy of the throne.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PNq604n2sbbK8_y4y0ws2MNVg6AOXffP/view?usp=sharing

Even back in the original Star Wars, Ben appears to have zero hope for redeeming Vader. “Only a master of evil, Darth.” The problem with Vader’s ROTJ line is that it’s a reference to a hypothetical prequel story that will never exist. The Obi-Wan show had the opportunity to right this wrong, but instead Ben just expressed how sorry he was and nothing beyond that.

I think the idea that the Jedi dogma is to destroy evil instead of redeem it is what makes the entire OT and sequels so good. Luke is doing what his mentors would never do with Vader, blazing a new path forward. It pays off in the end, but he instinctively relapses toward his old teachings with Ben Solo, thus why he feels the Jedi need to end.

Obi Wan is gung-ho on killing Vader throughout the entire trilogy. Especially in this movie, where he says the Emperor has already won since Luke won’t kill his own father. He seems to imply that was always the plan for Luke, too. Which means Vader’s line suggesting that Obi-Wan once told him to run away together contradicts itself within its own film. So I seriously hope this line is amended. Even ignoring the prequels, it makes zero sense based on what we know about the characters.

Good to hear!

I think I’m definitely leaning toward Rey shooting yellow lightning for this edit in particular. Especially since Luke is trying to claim that Rey has the spirit to keep darkness at bay for the most part. That way there is a common thread throughout the movie - Rey does or learns a dark thing involving herself, taking it to mean the worst, only to later learn that it was perhaps not actually as bad as she initially believed it to be.

1. Rey sees herself on the Sith throne, but strong connections through the Force are enough to overcome fate.
2. Rey destroys Chewbacca with her raw power, only to later learn that he’s still alive and her power isn’t necessarily dark, just uncontrolled.
3. Palpatine tells her that he made her to end him, insisting that she harbors hatred for him. But she rejects this idea and kills him as a Jedi, only using the Force for defense, not attack.

Alrighty, I’ve incorporated everything that was recommended except for “the” throne mostly because I’d like to hear other opinions on the wording there:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZaL9WFfyBjS9Pw4eS3KpO6sptsTRkxou/view?usp=sharing

EDIT: One other thing I’d be interesting in adding is a simple “and” before “some things are stronger than blood” just to recontextualize that from a negative thing he’s talking about to a situation where her blood is powerful, AND she has the spirit to wield it properly. Although I guess it works as-is because we know Anakin’s blood has a lot of darkness in it.

If Ady has that one dude who did the younger Vader dub then I’d definitely prefer that. But the last thing I think any of us wants is an impression that immediately stands out. At the end of the day, Lucasfilm has already been doing AI Vader for Kenobi, so it’s not like this is something completely disagreeable.

Yeah, ideally you want to have it trained on about 30 seconds of the dialogue immediately around what you want to replace. The Vader line I posted on Ady’s Episode 6 thread is just that.

Yeah, I’ll definitely remove it, then. I’m impartial to “that” vs “the”, but with “that” we are clearly referring back to Rey’s own statement.

Kexikus said:

Maybe the pause before “What are you most afraid of?” would be less necessary if you change the intonation so that the stress is on “you”. Then Luke would talk about HIS fears before asking Rey about HERS.

This is definitely an option.

Okay, I’ve got a new test. Let me know if you think “Final lesson” should be removed in order to make things less congested:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16wFmlYAhO-2QaMZtzTL72XxxMYKDjmf_/view?usp=sharing

I really do think the concept that Luke was avoiding Ben’s fate needs to stay in some way like this. It explains so many of his vague lines in TLJ: “This is not going to go the way you think” in reference to Rey trying to save Kylo. Why is Luke so certain that Rey’s vision of her redeeming him is wrong? “It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.” Why exactly does this raw, untamed power make him weary? And later, “I came to face him, Leia. And I can’t save him.” Again, why is Luke so incredibly certain that Kylo is beyond redemption? The only way any of this makes sense is if he saw Ben being on the Sith throne was a certainty on that fateful night. Palpatine doesn’t foresee Vader attacking him because the bond between a father and son is foreign to him. Similarly, he doesn’t expect Ben and Rey to be able to resist the destinies he’s fashioned for them because sharing the same power and having romantic attraction for each other is foreign to him. I think all of this lines up perfectly.

One other random audio change I’d like to see in a v5 is a mild Force choke or Force freeze sound effect when Kylo lifts his finger at Hux. See the following video if you aren’t sure what I’m referring to:

https://youtube.com/shorts/Y8uFZYr0pjw?si=9oiBKos5NJmSxeiB