Jar Jar Bricks

Octorox said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Honestly, it sounds to me like people on here have two different approaches to fixing this film:

1. Make TROS become more in line with what TLJ set up.
2. Make TLJ become more in line with what TROS settles, and fix a couple issues with TROS here and there.

Hmm, I wonder which one we should change? The critically acclaimed, thoughtful sequel that questions deeply-held assumptions about the Star Wars universe and pushes the franchise into exciting new directions? Or the frantic, pandering mess that goes out of it’s way to retcon anything remotely interesting in the previous film and wraps up this 9-movie saga with a whimper?

Obviously I’m being snarky but I’m starting to think the best sequel trilogy is actually a sequel duology. Ben’s arc is the only thing that even comes close to working for me in TROS and that’s only because of Adam Driver’s stellar performance. Hal and DominicCobb have both done a lot to make this movie more enjoyable, but to (mis)quote Count Dooku “The movie cannot be fixed. It’s time to start over.”

I mean, yeah, I’ll admit I’m pretty weird and in a very small minority for enjoying a decent amount of what TROS does. But I’m also pretty sure the Ascendant project was never about making a mini-film or a duology. I think what I’m trying to say here is that all of the radical changes people have been suggesting today really don’t belong here until we do a Rey nobody edit. A separate project thread, perhaps one for a duology, would be nice for these ideas as well.

Oh boy, I didn’t mean to trigger people by referencing the novelization. All I’m saying is that it is physically impossible for Snoke to have kickstarted the entire dyad because according to Kylo, the effort of such projection would kill. I pointed out that portion of the novelization only because I was considering when the dyad could have truly begun, and then Snoke simply helped it grow. Of course, I don’t believe that Snoke should have anything to do with their dyad because it creates too many questions for the viewer with the strange relationship between him and Palpatine.

Yeah at this point I’m fairly certain the dyad budded during the interrogation scene of TFA. I seem to recall people freaking out because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of that scene. From that point, it’s up to debate whether Snoke should be the one to enhance it further, or if it should evolve on its own naturally (which is what I prefer).

Burbin said:

Palpatine clearly says “the life force of your bond… a dyad in the Force” so it’s not something they were born with, but a connection that grows within them. So it doesn’t contradict Rey being a nobody, if anything it would strenghten that point if a nobody could develop such strong connection in the Force. And I also don’t see Snoke bridging their minds as a contradiction, but rather a step towards such a strong connection developing. Maybe it would help if Kylo said “What Palpatine doesn’t know is we’ve become a dyad in the Force, two that are one”.

It’s still clearly something that you would have to be born with. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the brotherly bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan be considered a dyad? Or between any Jedi/Sith pairing in general?

EDIT: Already know what your response is. Yes, Snoke bridging minds might cause the dyad to form, but then why hasn’t that been done before? It’s just a massive plot hole across the saga. Furthermore, Kylo says that the effort to project like that would kill. If it kills Luke, then why doesn’t it kill Snoke? This suggests that he is utilizing something that has always been present.

Hal did say he wanted a Rey Nobody edit, but that was going to happen after a v2. Right now there is a lot of discussion that would be better suited for when that edit enters into production.

I guess I can see that argument, but I prefer for their dyad to be purely mystical rather than engineered in part by some dude. I find it better that the verbal communication was always possible but them meeting each other in TFA truly unlocked it.

sherlockpotter said:

The same could be said the other way around though. If you’re going to change TLJ to be in line with TROS, you’ll have to remove:

• Everything with Rey, as it all revolves around her learning that her parents were nobody.
• Everything with Kylo, as it’s all about him shaking off the past influences of the Jedi and Sith, and stepping out from the shadow of his Master…until he accepts Palpy as his master and takes the Sith Fleet.
• Everything with Poe, as it’s all about him learning to become a leader…until he abandons his forces 16 hours before Doomsday in order to shuttle Rey across the galaxy on a scavenger hunt.
• Everything with Rose, because “She’s not important. Lol what are you talking about?”
• I guess you can keep the Finn stuff, because his complete lack of any characterization in TROS arguably doesn’t contradict what he did in TLJ?

Thing is, I don’t share those opinions on what you should be removing from TLJ to make it more in line with TROS. I already rambled a little too much about why I think Kylo’s arc in TLJ actually lines up with TROS. I could argue against the rest of those as well, but quite frankly this isn’t the place for that (and who is going to bother reading it anyways).

sherlockpotter said:

Another option - keep the Dyad in V2, but prune it from Rey Nobody. People who have an issue with Rey Palpatine don’t like it because it strips Rey of her strength of character, only making her special by birth. If she’s also born as a Magical Dyad Entity, doesn’t that serve to achieve the same thing?

God damn, J.J. You were so determined to make sure Rey was special because of her blood, that you gave her a double birthright claim to power. Ffs

That is exactly what I’m thinking. I’m not Hal, but I think a Rey Nobody version of this edit should have all the things removed that we are currently disputing. I mean, you’re not going to be left with much of a film. Like I said, I would expect it to be about an hour to an hour and a half. But I feel that v2 should still be focused on improving TROS without removing any of its fundamentals.

sade1212 said:

Speaking of leaks, wasn’t there potentially a previous draft of the story where Palpatine did know about the dyad, and everything he was doing was a ruse to get Ben and Rey together so he could slurp their energy out? In the Skywalker Legacy documentary, Chris Terrio lets slip something about Palpatine knowing about the dyad at the beginning of the movie, which obviously is not true of the final edit.

Yes, I seem to remember this as well, and I agree it would have made things more coherent. Unfortunately, JJ and crew seem to hate the idea of deleted scenes. Maybe way in the future when the whole sequel trilogy isn’t as much of a controversial topic they will release them.

Honestly, it sounds to me like people on here have two different approaches to fixing this film:

1. Make TROS become more in line with what TLJ set up.
2. Make TLJ become more in line with what TROS settles, and fix a couple issues with TROS here and there.

Obviously I am in the second camp. IMO, the problem with being in the first camp is that JJ purposely created a film here which completely flips TLJ on its head. If you start adjusting this film to do exactly the opposite, you won’t be left with much of a film. Maybe like an hour or so of footage.

Interestingly enough, I recall during the leaking process of TROS that JJ was fiddling around with the idea of removing the dyad concept from his movie. Yes, I knew just about everything about the movie before watching it.

However, I personally find the concept infinitely more interesting than Snoke simply “bridging their minds”. That would suggest that Snoke is one of the most powerful beings to ever exist (even more so than Palpatine), because his mind-bridging allowed Rey and Kylo to literally exchange water from across the entire galaxy, and an entire lightsaber from like a mile away (not to mention that this would be postmortem).

Believe me, removing the dyad only creates more issues. It’s better to embrace it.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Question: since the whole Snoke “bridged their minds” concept is such a problem after TROS, why didn’t Hal or Poppa delete it from their latest versions of TLJ? It doesn’t interrupt the flow of the scene whatsoever, and leaves some mysteries to be revealed in TROS that weren’t given an answer to. I can provide a clip of what I’m talking about because, like I said before, I did it in my own version of TLJ Rekindled.

It’s not a problem at all. Snoke specifically said he bridged their minds to allow them to communicate with each other, he never said anything about the DYAD in TLJ.

Arguably it is though. Just read some what some other people are commenting on here. It is very easy to assume after watching the sequel trilogy that one of the most intrinsic parts of a dyad is that the two can communicate with each other from across the galaxy. This would imply that Snoke created the dyad, or at the very least purposely enhanced it to the extreme. Even if this isn’t the case, it still leaves the viewers very confused because if Snoke serves Palpatine, then why didn’t Palpatine know about their connection?

Question: since the whole Snoke “bridged their minds” concept is such a problem after TROS, why didn’t Hal or Poppa delete it from their latest versions of TLJ? It doesn’t interrupt the flow of the scene whatsoever, and leaves some mysteries to be revealed in TROS that weren’t given an answer to. I can provide a clip of what I’m talking about because, like I said before, I did it in my own version of TLJ Rekindled.

jarbear said:

As for a personal view too, it’s better to at least imply there is distinction to the two since in the last movie, although it is a retcon now of the whole Kylo/Rey Mind Bridge connection is now the Dyad stuff … Palps was utterly surprised during the force draining thing … when we have Snoke in the previous movie that “he bridged their minds.” If Snoke is the Meat Puppet, then Palps did it … so there should be no surprise.

Now I know the whole Dyad thing was of JJ doings to help explain things and it was not the concept at all from the previous movie, and you can argue he just bridged their minds as in being able to communicate in the force, but at another level compared to like Luke and Vader reaching out in the original movies and didn’t know about there Dyadness/in the room/etc., but for the audience we saw it in the last movie and now it has a name … and Snoke did something in the last movie to affect what we saw then and now … but he is Palpatine’s Meat Puppet … Why is he surprised and taken back by it? Even if he didn’t know for sure, he would have suspected something … but he didn’t.

This kind of questioning is why in my personal edit of TLJ Snoke does not say that line. Instead, he simply says, “Young fool. I stoked Ren’s conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you and you were not wise enough to resist the bait.” As a result, Snoke does not admit to knowing anything about the dyad. I feel this is a good change because their dyad most likely started in TFA in the torture chamber or possibly even earlier. (Remember him saying, “What girl?” like he knew who the officer was talking about?)

On the other hand, even if he did know about it, it might not necessarily be an issue. As I said previously, although Palpatine has some influence over Snoke, I do not believe he knows his every thought and action. It’s not like he sees Snoke’s perspective through a VR screen.

Alternatively, there could be 2 separate audio tracks. The one excluding the line could be similar to the concept posted by Burbin.

Honestly, I’m just trying to avoid having to create my own version of this edit. I really hate my free editing software. But we need more people to chime in with their opinion on the line. Maybe make a poll?

Burbin said:

Most of the expanded stuff that’s come out only further does a disservice and draws episode IX further apart from VIII. Such as turning Snoke into a ‘test’, removing Kylo’s agency in overturning his Master.

Pretty sure I’m the only person that feels this way, but this is exactly why I like TROS. I’ve grown to actually enjoy TLJ because of the movie’s clarifications (or retcons, as many others prefer to call them). I just happen to disagree that some of these retcons harm TLJ as a whole.

Clearly none of this was planned out, I can admit that. But I still enjoy it for what it is (with minor tweaks here and there).

I mean just watch the conversation between Anakin/Vader and Padme on Mustafar and then compare it to the one between Kylo and Rey on the Supremacy. Both Vader and Kylo say almost the exact same rhetoric (and their partner reacts the same way in response).

I just figured out what I’m trying to say better. You say that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible at the end of TLJ. And I agree 100%. That is because his new goal is to live up to the ideals that Vader was never able to live up to himself, yet wanted to. Vader would have most certainly done the things Kylo did in TLJ if it weren’t for his limitations.
“I will finish what you started.”

Burbin said:

Those are fair points, though I’d argue the Kylo in TLJ embodies the message of “let the past die”. He doesn’t shed his persona, but he clearly takes it in his own path and separates himself from Vader, it’s made clear that him becoming “a new Vader” was Snoke’s ambition, and he ends up killing Snoke and renouncing that path. Learning Rey comes from nowhere further makes him realize his “legacy” didn’t define who he was. So by the end of TLJ it’s pretty clear that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible. He “kills” his past, incuding his obsession with Vader.

Yes, but as I stated, in a roundabout way him doing all that is precisely what Vader sought to do (but was never able to). Snoke, whether he realized it or not, was there as a test to see if Kylo could evolve into Vader+, which would be a worthy candidate for Palpatine and the Sith of the past to transfer their essence into.

jarbear said:

Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?

Well, I know we don’t have to abide by canon, but Snoke is a strand-cast, or biologically engineered individual. As a result, even I thought it was stupid to show a vat full of Snoke clones, because Snoke ISN’T a clone. That would be like creating an extremely detailed work of art and then creating it exactly the same way a second and third time. It’s near impossible.

As a standcast, he does have his own free will. However, through the manipulation of genetics and Palpatine he is at some times forced to do certain things and think certain ways. And I already stated in my previous post why Snoke’s actions against Kylo actually line up with Palpatine’s.

I mean Kylo literally said, “Show me again, the power of the darkness”. Clearly the mask is showing him visions, and it isn’t a huge leap to assume that means there was conversation as well. To me, Kylo’s arc in TLJ is actually him becoming aware of what living up to Vader’s legacy truly means. Vader didn’t care about the Jedi or the Sith. All he cared about was ruling the galaxy and forgetting about his tragic past, which is exactly what Kylo seeks to do after TLJ. Vader always wanted to destroy Palpatine, and Kylo lived up to that by killing his own master. If he had truly abandoned his quest he would have destroyed Vader’s mask just like his own. I think he just realized how childish it was to assume that just because he had a mask meant he was more like Vader, so in his anger he destroyed it. He only reforged it when he felt he was worthy enough to wear it again.

TL;DR Version: Snoke didn’t crush Kylo’s Vader persona, he only strengthened it.

Cinefy said:

Quite liked the “I have been every voice inside you’re head” where it was from the gecko, not sure how I feel about it moving, if it works could be interesting. Don’t want to see the line lost thats for sure.

+1

What’s wrong with making everything red? Besides the lightsabers of course.

idir_hh said:

Exegol in Red, with Blue Lightning and Blue Sabers
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/liluev/alternate_universe_clip_exegol_in_red_with_blue/

How to get an epileptic seizure 101
https://youtu.be/ECPSdFbUsEo
Red and blue like that is a serious issue. Agreed that it looks pretty cool though.

dgraham414 said:

The concept art may not show a broken crystal but the movie clearly shows it in two pieces

Agreed. You can clearly see a sizable chunk of blue crystal in Rey’s right hand in that shot.