Jar Jar Bricks

jarbear said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

It matters who it is. Of course, this once again relies on Midichlorians, but he needed the person with the most force potential to inherit the Sith spirit.

Furthermore, he needs the person killing him to be doing it out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

It also doesn’t hurt to have the killing be more of an indirect method, yes. That would almost guarantee he couldn’t do anything.

Lol, although that is their rationale I’m sure … boy it doesn’t make sense. How does motive matter if there is a transfer. What was the motive of whatever Palps first went into after his fall at the DSII? that’s why the whole thing is goofy. Was there a series of Palpy clones, who hated each other, that made a long line from the DSII floating in space with spacesuits that kept slicing each other until the one on a planet or shuttle with the doors open?

Heck, you can use the rationale it wasn’t hate or vengeance for Rey, where the motivation was to save her friends. It was stop him or everyone get’s killed. Heck, you see it on her face of how sad she was and not just some angry vengeful person. It was do this or your friends die. Sith don’t care about people.

You probably won’t respond, but I still feel the need to respond to these arguments.

While Palpatine was falling, he willed his essence to escape his body before he died. He then entered a dormant clone body on Exegol. I know you will hate to hear this, but all this comes from the novelization.

You can make that argument for Rey, sure. But when Palpatine was declaring that transfer ritual, he declares that she is earning her revenge by killing him because he called for her parents to be killed. This is also why it is important that Rey cares about her parents.

Brewzter said:

I fully understand why people are frustrated with Palpatine in this movie, but I think it’s great how convoluted it is lmao. I think it fits his character perfectly and is very in-line with his numerous convoluted plans in the prequels.

Same man. Same.

jarbear said:

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

It matters who it is. Of course, this once again relies on Midichlorians, but he needed the person with the most force potential to inherit the Sith spirit.

Furthermore, he needs the person killing him to be doing it out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

It also doesn’t hurt to have the killing be more of an indirect method, yes. That would almost guarantee he couldn’t do anything.

sherlockpotter said:

To be clear, Palpy’s plan for Rey is:

• Order Kylo to kill Rey.
• Anticipate him both trying to mow her down with his ship. But actually not want to kill her after all.

He realizes that Kylo is conflicted, but that isn’t deterring him from hoping for the best with him.

• Secretly lure Rey to him by means of…Ochi’s Dagger?

What? Rey and gang’s adventure to find Exegol was in no way orchestrated by Palpatine. There is no “lure”

• Convince her to kill him by telling her it’s what he wants?

He convinces her to kill him because he claims its the only way to stop her friends from dying.

• Send his guards to try and kill Rey in the throne room as she’s about to kill him anyway

He needs Rey to kill him out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

• Try to kill Rey anyway once the guards fail to do so

I believe he was actually intending on torturing them into submission. Possibly kill one in the process which would then result in the other wanting to kill him out of vengeance.

• Resurrect himself…some other way, I guess?

Yes, he found out that the dyad can restore him, so all of his antics were unneeded. He only ever needed the two together.

• Rule over a galaxy that he’s completely destroyed.

Sounds like an authoritarian leader to me alright.

All of this convoluted nonsense could be avoided if his plan can be retooled to “Kill Rey because she is the last great threat to his return.”

Too boring imo

Brewzter said:

Also the fact that Rey only exists because Palpatine and the Sith Eternal let Palpatine’s non-Force-sensitive clone have a natural-born child in the hopes that they would be Force-sensitive and a worthy host for Palpatine’s spirit unlike the original non-Force-sensitive clone.

Yes but clearly he wasn’t relying entirely on that. It was a Plan B. He played most of his hand with Kylo. And who wouldn’t want a piece of that “mighty Skywalker blood” anyway?

In ROTS he says that Anakin would surpass even himself (pre-multilation). So he probably realizes a Skywalker is potentially more powerful than even his own bloodline.

Hal 9000 said:

I don’t plan to remove the blue smoke from poppasketti in any event, no.

Another thing is that Palpatine wanting Rey dead at the start of TROS is consistent with Snoke/Palpatine sincerely ordering her execution. His change of mind is still baffling in any event.

Pretty sure that months ago somebody outlined Palpatine’s plan but here it goes again.

1. Palpatine puts all of his effort into corrupting Ben Solo.
2. Palpatine wants Snoke to have Kylo kill Rey because he is planning on essence transferring into Kylo
3. He had already put a ton of effort into corrupting Kylo, so yet again he tells him to kill Rey.
4. Kylo realigns himself with the light, and Palpatine senses it. His new goal is to corrupt Rey and essence transfer into her.
5. She refuses. Then he discovers he can drain their dyad to restore his full strength.

And yeah I also prefer that Rey’s admission remains. If you watch the scene, all she ever admits is that her parents were nobodies. Only THEN does Kylo proceed to elaborate on what he saw about them. Maybe she doesn’t protest what he is saying about them because she seriously doesn’t remember too much about them beyond that.

In TROS she recalls how her parents reassured her that she would be safe on Jaaku. If she recalled that moment in the throne room, she could just perceive it as her bad parents trying to calm her down so that they can leave.

Hal 9000 said:

TLJ was surprisingly smooth also, with Snoke again being the weirdest part. It does not seem at all hinted at that he is a cloned vessel, so I prefer to think of him as a Dooku-esque recruit with a history all his own that we don’t see.

I mean, I agree that it isn’t suggested at all that he is a clone vessel. Mostly because that is such an outlandish concept, at least until you see TROS.

Rather, Snoke is very clearly exhibiting very Emperor-like speech, behaviors, and characteristics. Right down to even showing the protagonist the destruction of all of her friends in his window. Until TROS, this could just be perceived as lazy writing. But now, I look back on Snoke in TLJ as it subtly suggesting that he is either very fond of Palpatine, or he IS him (at least in part). Maybe that’s just my view though.

It does fit quite well. The only problem is that it is too loud over all the dialogue (which is especially concerning because the Jedi voices are so quiet to begin with).

I will admit it is somewhat strange that all three people she looks at have different last names (Organa, Solo, Skywalker) and yet still lands on calling herself a Skywalker. Having Anakin might help with that.

Brewzter said:

I agree that the second and third versions look very off-putting and clearly from that portion of the movie. The first one looks better in my eyes as he’s more proportionate and higher resolution, plus it’s not actually from ROTS since it’s a promo photo of him in the Tantive IV for some reason. But of course, it’s just a still photo which looks a bit odd next to the others, plus he’s in dark robes that don’t match the other three and aren’t consistent with his ghost at the end of ROTJ or behind Rey on Exegol.

Yep unfortunately it seems it would have to be video footage from some point in the saga. Maybe splice it out of the actual ROTJ scene? Or maybe there are some deleted scenes with Anakin in ROTS that might work idk.

Brewzter said:

I wasn’t really trying to start a debate on whether or not he should’ve been included since I think we’ve been through that cycle a few times haha, I’m just looking for help on my TROS edit from anyone else capable or also interested in this ending.

Fair enough. I don’t think it’s an abomination to include him, but I just don’t feel that it’s necessary at all.

I think the main problem with what you have right now is that (at least to me) it’s quite obvious that Anakin picture is snipped from the balcony scene between Anakin and Padme in ROTS. Although that might just be because I’ve seen the movie way too many times.

Honestly I think a good frame of reference for how your final product should look is the special edition of Return of the Jedi.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Rey has no connection to Anakin.

Agreed, and this is coming from somebody that likes the prequels.

His appearance is served much better in the Palpatine fight alone, where he finishes the job which wasn’t completed in the first place because of unnatural and unforeseeable Sith magic.

TestingOutTheTest said:

CaptainFaraday said:

Plus, I don’t actually hate the Goonies-style “line up the dagger” thing as a concept. It is dumb that Rey just stands in an arbitrary spot anywhere on a kilometres-long shoreline for it to work, though, and my idea is to add a specific marker that she has to stand on and line the dagger up with, like the medallion in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

It certainly don’t make no sense, though, that’s for sure. I’ve spent longer thinking about it than Terrio or Abrams probably did.

Why do people forget that C-3PO told them where to stand?

While it’s true he does tell them, it seems way too convenient that the place 3PO tells them to stand is also the exact same place they happen to crash the Falcon.

Burbin said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Are you suggesting that character development for Kylo is only recognized when he permanently kills something? Because the way I understand it, you recognize character development by actions, not the extraneous circumstances surrounding them. Especially if they only reveal themselves later on down the line.

I mean, if it was revealed that the guy he killed in TFA was actually a clone of Han Solo’s cousin and his real father is still hanging out somewhere else, I guess you wouldn’t think that affects the scene in TFA or Kylo Ren’s journey at all(?)

I can admit that may be a little too convenient for him (as in he doesn’t have to deal with the results of his own actions). But yes, I would still see it as character development. This is because he had no reason to believe it wasn’t his father, and yet he still killed him anyway.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that there still would be some consequences, at least in that scenario you described. I can’t imagine they would ever have a normal relationship again after that.

Oh yeah I meant to apologize to you MR if I came across rude in any way during our discussion a while back on Fixing Disney Star Wars. I don’t hold anything against you personally. No hard feelings?

Agreed Dominic.

Burbin said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.

Funnily enough, I actually find this enhances my enjoyment of TLJ rather than harming it. Yes, I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.

With the removal of all the Snoke bodies he could easily be perceived not just as one of many potential host bodies, but as the only host body Palpatine had at his disposal that wasn’t attached to a medical crane arm. This in and of itself is significant enough for the characters to have defeated in the second movie. At least for me.

I’m not saying that moment is harmed because Snoke is no longer the big bad, he wasn’t by the end of TLJ either and whether he was a puppet or not wouldn’t change that. I’m saying it totally negates Kylo’s whole character arc in TLJ if all it amounts to is pulling the chord on a Palpy puppet. If we have some degree of separation between Snoke and Palps at least the story in TLJ is only harmed by bringing in another big bad, instead of it being literally the same one, thus negating the conclusion in the previous movie.

Are you suggesting that character development for Kylo is only recognized when he permanently kills something? Because the way I understand it, you recognize character development by actions, not the extraneous circumstances surrounding them. Especially if they only reveal themselves later on down the line.

Oh of course none of this was ever the filmmaker’s intention in TLJ. That concept is laughable to me. Maybe I haven’t been clear enough. I’m only speaking from the perspective of those writing TROS. And you’re free to label what I’m doing mental gymnastics, but I’m being honest when I say that it doesn’t feel that way to myself.

On the topic of Kylo being the “big bad”, I feel that would have been a bad idea. Unless there was radical change in his character, it would have felt quite underwhelming. Adam Driver just does such a fantastic job playing a conflicted villain. Who knows, maybe he would have been capable of delivering a good performance as a purely evil character. But I have a hard time believing it would work overall, especially in the writing department. He wasn’t taken seriously enough as a villain in the first two films, and that would only leave the final one to turn things around.

Plus, I appreciate the parallels between Anakin and Ben. Anakin starts a hero, and becomes a villain in the lava. Kylo starts a villain, and becomes a hero in the water.

Burbin said:

If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.

Funnily enough, I actually find this enhances my enjoyment of TLJ rather than harming it. Yes, I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.

With the removal of all the Snoke bodies he could easily be perceived not just as one of many potential host bodies, but as the only host body Palpatine had at his disposal that wasn’t attached to a medical crane arm. This in and of itself is significant enough for the characters to have defeated in the second movie. At least for me.

Perfect Hal, it all sounds really good to me. I agree it’s probably best to keep both lines because of the fact that your edits are so widely used by this community.

My own TLJ edit solves my own niche requirements about the movie, and that’s enough for me. I highly recommend creating personalized versions of some fan edits. Everyone has their own ideal fan edit, and I find it’s much simpler to remove content rather than add it back in.

You believe that removing the bridged minds line is radical, and I feel that removing the voices in your head line is radical.

Ultimately perhaps it’s best not to touch either of them then. But it would really help if others chimed in on this discussion as well.

Very well written. Thank you. At the end of the day, me bringing up removing that line in TLJ was just me trying to convince everyone not to delete anything else from Ascendant. And I’m not forcing anyone to agree with me on why I feel that line deletion is necessary. I just don’t want this project to deviate too much from its source material.

I will definitely follow this thread when we delve into a more radical “Rey Nobody” edit, or an entirely different project that removes large portions of the film. I probably won’t use them as my preferred edits, but I like to look at other projects for ideas.

I could most definitely keep the conversation up with you too Burbin, but at this point we’re talking about my own personal fan edit that I haven’t shared with anyone. Unless you are meaning to talk to Hal about his opinion on it? In which case carry on I suppose, because this is his forum post.

It just feels like a waste of time for me to respond to all of your arguments because I already know I disagree with most of them, so therefore the only reason for me to respond would be to convince you to agree with me. But I already know that is extremely unlikely.

Neerb, we’re never going to agree on this topic. If you want to keep talking about it you can DM me but this isn’t the right forum for it.

I would respond to what you just said, but it would kind of be a waste of time for both of us.