Jar Jar Bricks

Yeah I’m not saying that “we’ve become a dyad in the force” doesn’t solve anything. In fact, it lines things up more correctly with canon, and therefore is a good change to make things more understandable. But that’s just the problem: current canon is kinda confusing when it comes to the dyad because of all the retcons it involves.

That’s why I’ll always stand by going to the original point and fixing it to be more in line with the retcon. Because like I said in the previous post, this movie’s plot depends on the dyad.

The problem is that the entire plot hinges on the dyad. I don’t buy for a second that Palpatine would absorb enough latent energy left over from Snoke’s mind bridging alone to fully restore him. At that point, why didn’t he just drain Snoke himself? There would be even more energy inside of him, after all.

So you HAVE to make the dyad make sense. And in order for the dyad to make sense, you need to go back to the previous movies and change some things (at least that’s how I feel).

Big sad.

IlFanEditore said:

All other things that happen (Kylo probing her mind in TFA and Snoke mind bridging them) just enhanced something that was already there.

I don’t know, I just feel like these sorts of force abilities should evolve on their own over time without any artificial enhancements. Maybe that’s just me. Otherwise, things get way too complicated when you try to wrap your head around this concept.

They leave it up to debate because they realize that their dyad idea is contradicted by Snoke having created the mind link. So they basically took a step back and were like, “Well, Snoke’s thing was completely different even though it’s the exact same concept of two people being really close. But the dyad is just the material exchange and the Palpatine rejuvenation juice.” Thing is, that distinction is never suggested in the films and it just makes the concept even more confusing.

Gah just end my suffering please.

jarbear said:

Especially if the Skype calls were not part of it … but can move physical things in space … because … their minds linked? Like if I am connected to a friend on the phone from my house to his, he can “hand me” his pen … because you know … we are connected.

Yeah I believe what they’re suggesting is that part of the Skype calls is their dyad, while everything else is a mind link. I’m still leaning more towards removing Snoke’s involvement, but I’m gonna think about it for a bit.

That is a perfect line, jarbear. Would have been perfect, that is. RIP.

https://streamable.com/uorkfi

Just listened to sherlock’s clip on my computer and yet again I’m mostly content with it. It’s the same quality as “You were right” imo.

That’s exactly what I meant Hal. Terrio literally uses that word in his paragraph, although in the past tense (“leave it to debate about at which point they became this dyad in the Force”)

I believe what he is saying is that Palpatine authorized Snoke to create a mind link, however it spiraled out of control because of the dyad. Palpatine was not aware of that part. It’s simply up to interpretation when the dyad side of things started. Again, my personal theory is the interrogation scene, but arguably you could go back even further than that.

So, according to that logic, the Skype calls are not a part of the dyad, they only helped it grow. Not sure how I feel about that, but alright.

Holy shit guys:

"That really helped us in thinking about Rey and Kylo Ren, which is to say that we wanted to elaborate on the idea that Snoke bridged their minds in ‘The Last Jedi.’ But what we wanted to say is that there’s something deeper there, and leave it to debate about at which point they became this dyad in the Force, where they were really two, or were they one, whether that was a mistake that Palpatine made by bridging them and therefore creating this thing. But regardless, their relationship is extremely interesting and complicated, and it was one of the things that J.J. and I loved about ‘The Last Jedi’ that we luckily inherited and could build.”

Straight from the horse’s mouth (Chris Terrio).

It doesn’t help that I’m trying to write code for my class at the same time I’m frying my brain with the incomprehensible story of the sequel trilogy.

I’m actually going to hop off now. lol

It is, jarbear. That’s why I keep bringing it up.

Does anybody have access to the raw audio files of Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens? It’s voiced by Adam Driver.

EDIT: Wait, that’s not what you’re asking, is it? Kind of having a hard time understanding your sentence there lmao.

Oh I see. My brain really is dead right now. I’m not sure what “Is it you?” would accomplish though.

sherlockpotter said:

Reading over the last few posts, and mulling it over some more, I think what would have made the most sense is if the Rey/Kylo connection was very explicitly established in TFA. Something like, Rey senses Kylo when he arrives on Jakku, and she sets off intentionally looking for BB-8. Then Snoke plays on that innate connection in TLJ, and it all comes to a head in TROS, where their connection becomes so powerful that they can teleport lightsabers to each other like it’s nothing.

The problem is, J.J. hadn’t thought of the Dyad in TFA (or at least, he didn’t make it clear). So Rian comes in and artificially creates a connection between the two of them (a connection which they even question, like, “Wtf what’s happening?”) as a tool for character building, not a grandiose plot point. Then J.J. comes back and says, “Nah, that was a ‘Dyad’ all along! DYAD!!” I can’t see a way of making it work without A) Doing massive recuts to both TFA and TLJ, and B) Finding new scenes for TFA that never would have been filmed.

If I can get it to work, I think “becoming a Dyad” is the most elegant solution, something that’s vague enough to appeal to both sides of the aisle. I was playing with it more on my lunch break…I should be able to post a second attempt later this evening.

I agree with literally everything here. Nothing much else to add here.

On the topic of your B) point, I already mentioned the “It is you” Kylo line when Rey grabs the lightsaber. I feel that would possibly hint at such a connection in TFA, but it probably isn’t enough. Like you said, it would probably have to be entire scenes in order to be clear enough.

That is a good point, but TROS gives the impression that Snoke and Palpatine are linked in some way. It’s never explained how much, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place. So sure, it’s not a VR screen, but think of it like Palpatine can see his vital signs and a couple of other minor things. I would imagine that him using the force like that would be detected by him in such a case, whereas his internal thoughts wouldn’t be. So we solve one of the circumstances with this change, but not the VR case (which likely isn’t true to begin with).

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

Also thinking, Palps doesn’t always knows or senses everything. Heck, in ROTJ Vader sensed Luke was looking for him and Palps responded he didn’t feel that. It could have been a lie, but let’s take it to face value. He is not all knowing or sensing. He can do a lot, but not everything.

Ultimately it does rely on how much information Snoke knows that is “transmitted” to Palpatine. In my mind at least, something that Snoke created with the force would be MUCH more likely to be shared with Palpatine due to the amount of strain and effort it creates. Something that he kinda knows about and is simply relying on? Maybe not so much.

There was no indication that Snoke’s information can be automatically transferred from him to Palps; I keep having to say this, Snoke isn’t Palps’ VR headset, he’s still his own person but takes orders from him.

If you had read my post more carefully you would see that I agree with you. We don’t know how much information Snoke knows that is given to him, but the amount of it would be nice to have been stated because it gives us an idea of what is okay for him to be saying.

In this case, even if Palpatine knew nothing about Snoke’s thoughts, I’m 99% sure he would be able to detect him pulling off such an intense force feat such as creating their bond. If Snoke only knows about the bond, and doesn’t create it, then in order for Palpatine to know about it he would have to know his internal thoughts, which is much more unlikely. That is why imo it is a good change, but it does come with its own other minor problems.

Hal 9000 said:

Yeah and removing Snoke’s line begs the question of how he could have anticipated it. It’d be trading one problem for another.

I explained earlier that Snoke could be thinking one of two ways: 1. He knows they have some sort of connection already and is anticipating it to be a useful tool in bringing Rey to him 2. He doesn’t know about their connection but assumes that somehow they will get in contact with each other and result in bringing Rey to him. Of course, that isn’t thought out as well.

At least with this problem I have the capability of overlooking it. Not so much with the other side.

Anyways, I agree, it’s probably best to just take a break for now. I would say put in Kylo’s “become” and that’s about it. I’m probably going to stick with removing Snoke’s line, but it definitely isn’t for everyone, and therefore should not be in your edits.

Hmmm I hadn’t considered that. You make a good point.

But you could make the argument that all of the initial connections they experienced were the will of the force, or the signs of their dyad growing, and once they got the hang of it they could choose to initialize them or decline them as they willed.

jarbear said:

Also thinking, Palps doesn’t always knows or senses everything. Heck, in ROTJ Vader sensed Luke was looking for him and Palps responded he didn’t feel that. It could have been a lie, but let’s take it to face value. He is not all knowing or sensing. He can do a lot, but not everything.

Ultimately it does rely on how much information Snoke knows that is “transmitted” to Palpatine. In my mind at least, something that Snoke created with the force would be MUCH more likely to be shared with Palpatine due to the amount of strain and effort it creates. Something that he kinda knows about and is simply relying on? Maybe not so much.

Oh, I remember now. If Palpatine knows they have a dyad, it shouldn’t matter how powerful it is, he should realize that he could potentially drain it and would want Rey brought to him alive by Kylo. So yeah, maybe not a good idea to remove those lines.

God, what a mess. I need a break lmfao.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

EDIT: On second thought, it might not. If Snoke knew about their connection and was using it to his advantage, I suppose removing Kylo’s line makes sense. And Palpatine would just be surprised by how powerful their dyad is, not the fact that there is a dyad, if you remove the other line.

Just wanna make sure you see this edit, Hal. I might be brain fried as well and am not considering an important detail so lmk.

jarbear said:

I definitely want to remove the Snoke line for sure now. Lol.

You and me both, partner. I would appreciate a link to whatever you come up with if you think it’s better than what I currently have.

The only thing I want to make sure we are NOT doing is chopping off Kylo’s “What Palpatine doesn’t know…” and Palpatine’s “a dyad in the force”. That could cause some issues between Hal’s idea and our idea.

EDIT: On second thought, it might not. If Snoke knew about their connection and was using it to his advantage, I suppose removing Kylo’s line makes sense. And Palpatine would just be surprised by how powerful their dyad is, not the fact that there is a dyad, if you remove the other line.

Hal 9000 said:

I guess leaving Snoke’s line but implying they’ve become a dyad since then would make it the least amount of dumb possible, but we’ll see what happens! Thanks for recapping that for me.

I agree, mostly because changing it to “become” still works in the context of removing Snoke’s line. Kylo says, “We’ve become a dyad in the force” but never specifies when. If you want it to be when Snoke bridges their minds, go for it. If you want it to be in the interrogation scene if that Snoke line is removed, go for it.

I think it’s a win-win for everyone.

Hal, to be honest, I’ve completely forgotten how we landed on this topic again LMAO. Once I remember, I’ll edit this post or create a new one.

EDIT: Ok, so originally it was brought up because I was trying to convince everyone not to remove references to the dyad in TROS because it would create some issues, especially with Snoke’s mind bridging still in place. Then I brought up how removing it would help clear a lot of questions, such as how is Snoke powerful enough to create such a connection without dying, and to a lesser degree explain why Palpatine isn’t aware of something his pawn supposedly created. If Snoke didn’t create it, but was relying on it, it’s at least a little more understandable. It would also open the door for their connection to have started in TFA in the interrogation scene, where Rey essentially learns all of Kylo’s training in an instant.

I’ve already done it (although I’m sure you could do it even better)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikD6D9-OU1g

While I agree it’s still somewhat messy, to me at least it is the most sound answer. Sure, you can punch a hole in it by saying that since Snoke still is aware of their connection, why is Palpatine surprised by it. But ultimately, the way Snoke speaks without that one line could suggest that he either assumed they would somehow get in contact, or he did know about their connection. Either way is good enough for me.

“It was I who bridged your minds” is the only problematic line imo. But people here prefer the twist that he orchestrated literally everything, which I can sort of understand.

I’m content enough with him scolding Kylo intentionally, knowing that it would “stoke Ren’s conflicted soul”, and as a result Rey would be more likely to see a chance of redemption in him. So in a way, he still orchestrates Rey coming to him, although he uses a tool which isn’t his own in order to do it.

jarbear said:

TL:DR version: Snoke’s mind bridge was intended for them to communicate, not the whole physical stuff which is contributed to the Dyad stuff. He didn’t know that, just wanted them to chat.

Fair enough. The problem I have with that is it isn’t made clear enough in the film that this is the case. I actually would blame TFA in this case. If TFA overtly set up that they had some mystical connection, it would be more believable that Snoke’s mind bridge would accelerate it. The problem, at least in my case, is that when Snoke says that line it appears that he is taking credit for everything, not just the chatting.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Your changes suggest he is aware they are a dyad… only to discover they are a SUPER dyad. Not sure I like that tbh.

Still stand by this ^

Also RogueLeader, I think I’d probably just shut off the movie if I found out that the mind link (emphasis on mind) created by Snoke survived his death and literally allowed them to transfer a freaking lightsaber across that distance. Imo the dyad, even if it isn’t explained properly, is absolutely necessary.

Water literally gets onto Kylo Ren’s hand and Rey experiences visions of his future upon touching his hand.

IMO that is actually a hint towards there being something more going on than a mind link (the dyad). Sure, it probably wasn’t originally written with that intention, but that was one of the things I disliked about TLJ until TROS. You’re telling me that Luke projecting himself killed him, but then Snoke is so powerful that he can allow two people to see/touch each other from across the galaxy AND transport physical matter all without dying? And when he does die, “his” connection persists? Give me a break. When Luke dies the dice he transported fade away, the same should happen to their connection if Snoke solely created it.

We don’t know how this power works, all we know is that Snoke connected them, so we can INFER that it works that way.

Well then, I would say that it is a pretty darn easy inference to make then. Or maybe it’s just me?

I honestly simply hate the idea that Snoke had anything to do with establishing their connection. I’m okay with him knowing about it and using it to his advantage to lure Rey in, but nothing beyond that. But I’ve said that so many times at this point that I’m starting to sound like a broken record.

Plus, I’ve already got an edit which does that for me. If other people don’t agree, then I won’t force them to make that change as well.