I will never be able to unsee Anakin’s lightsaber getting caught on his Jedi robes lol. The one scene where a physical lightsaber prop wasn’t the greatest idea if they were so insistent on him keeping them on.
I don’t believe Hayden delivered Vader’s lines through an AI voice filter - although I could be wrong. It was my understanding that they just generated the lines until they were satisfied with the delivery, which is what I did for TROS Ascendant.
Unless he’s an audio wizard, I kinda doubt he’ll be touching the partially unmasked part where it’s a blend of Hayden and Vader’s voices.
My only critique is that it sort of comes to a sudden end and feels a bit open-ended. That might be an issue with the original source material, though.
It is indeed an issue with the source material. I wish we at least had some sort of indication whether Jod escapes or is brought into custody.
In the original film I’d agree with you that there’s no chance she’d take up Palpatine’s offer because Luke brings prophecy into the whole thing. He spoils everything about the ending in the original dialogue by saying Ben would die and that Rey is destined to finish Leia’s Jedi path.
Ascendant’s new Luke dialogue doesn’t guarantee any of that. Sure, it’s a massive boost of reassurance, but it doesn’t directly dispute her vision of herself on the throne of the Sith. So Palpatine’s scheming doesn’t hit as hard as it could, sure, but at least it’s hitting to a certain degree, now. But I do agree that Luke and Ben needed a scene or two together in this film. The easiest place to do that is the one I’ve already gone over in my thread with dialogue taken from the DOTF script. It replaces a useless exchange between him and Palps telling him to kill Rey for the third time. The only other place to insert a Luke line to him would be when he appears to hear somebody nearby (he looks up suddenly and searches with his eyes) on Exegol when holding a dead Rey.
Just tell me if you’d rather not discuss this any further and detract from the other great stuff you’ve got going on here (love that ESB duel btw), I’ve just never had an opportunity to discuss the sequels under this lense on this forum before lol.
Rey’s arc throughout the trilogy is anchored in her feelings of inadequacy, much like Kylo Ren. She grows up her whole life thinking her parents abandoned her, and even though she finds out this isn’t true, she then thinks Luke, Leia, and all of her friends will abandon her because of her dark heritage/tendencies because that’s what she subconsciously expects. This is quite similar to how you can be offered salvation, but believe that you are unworthy of it because of your past transgressions or who you feel that you naturally are. Oftentimes, this is indeed because of a biological parent who is an awful person and you just don’t want to turn out like them. Rey accepting the name of Skywalker at the end of the movie makes sense because she spends a good chunk of it convincing herself that she doesn’t deserve to belong with anyone because she’s a monster - thus why she tried to abandon herself on Ahch-To. She is finally accepting her salvation/redemption in the end by declaring herself a Skywalker.
The serpent cave scene in TROS is actually a metaphor and foreshadowing of this. Rey represents the injured serpent - spawn of Palpatine (the deceiving serpent) and traumatized by her past. While appearing to be evil on the outside, once the serpent is healed from its trauma, it is kind and helpful to our main characters and helps them escape from the tunnels. Kylo Ren holds a similar belief to Rey: his parents shipped him off to his uncle because they didn’t know how to deal with his dark tendencies, only for his uncle proceeding to (from his perspective) nearly kill him. He sees himself as a monster because of his family being scared of him from the jump, and admits this to Rey in TLJ. So he leans further and further into this persona because nobody ever expected anything different out of him, despite the fact that being evil isn’t fulfilling to him. His water baptism back into Ben Solo occurs on the Death Star II wreckage because his mother wanted to let him know she still loved him even at the cost of her own life (another sacrificial archetype).
Rian Johnson didn’t actually burn the Jedi texts - if you have a keen eye you’ll notice Finn opening a drawer on the Falcon with them at the end of TLJ. Rey studies them in TROS to learn about the Sith way finders and Force healing. Yoda was simply instructing Luke to not be such a fundamentalist Jedi. There is great wisdom in the sacred texts, but if you get so hung up on understanding every single little detail (and why they might not make sense given modern understanding), you’ll forget how to actually put your faith into practice in your life. Yoda reminds him to focus on the here and now, “the need in front of your nose”. That need is to pass on what he has learned to the next generation, including his failures, so that they might live a more peaceful life than he did. This is actually a really beautiful scene that I’ll give TLJ credit for.
I’m not sure Maz is supposed to represent anything significant, but Snoke is actually a pretty good representation of the “principalities and powers” concept. There are rich and powerful people who believe that they are in complete control of everything, and so they will do terrible things for their own gain - little do they know that they are merely a puppet for a dark force that will cast them aside as soon as they are no longer useful for an even more sinister takeover. The power Snoke had in life was never his, it was given unto him by Palpatine. In real life we might say these people “sold their soul to the devil”.
No man, you’re good! Theological Editing is still editing, lol! I’m planning on doing a episode wayyyyy down the road on how to edit/design theological narratives because Harry Potter, Dune, STAR WARS, Lord of the Rings, and a bunch of the Ghibli films all use Theological Editing techniques, and I’m not aware of any courses out there teaching how to do that. Frankly, until now I didn’t think anyone would be interested, haha! The only thing I’m trying to avoid is discussions of Theology by itself (discussions I love to have BTW just not on this specific post).
To your sequel trilogy point, based on that breakdown, I’d watch the snot out of a Sequel Trilogy written by you haha!, but to be honest I think you’ve put 500 times more thought into the theological editing than Rian and JJ did.
I’m also gonna be honest, and say I haven’t given the Sequels a whole ton of thought, because I have no intention of recutting them. But I’d sum up my impression of why I don’t think they theologically jive with George’s six by quoting one of Jesus’ two pronged questions from the gospels: “What is the law? And how do you read it?” I think Disney often gets the “law” right, but “reads” it wrong. That Jesus quote is in reference to a Teacher of the Law who wants to be good with God, but stay a racist. Jesus’ point is made by telling the parable of the good Samaritan where the law fulfills it’s purpose by making the Good Samaritan love his neighbor regardless of his race. The Teacher of the law knew the law said he needed to “love his neighbor”, but he didn’t want to define Samaritans as his neighbors so he could still hate them. Jesus’ two-pronged question is calling him on his BS. The law is fine. It’s the “reading” that’s whack. (BTW I’m not calling Disney STAR WARS racist, I’m just explaining the principle of “law” vs. “reading” LOL!)
Basically, I think Disney threw together a lot of references (law) to the Original Trilogy and the Prequels without understanding the original purposes of those references, and because of that break down, I don’t know how I’d be able to fix it, because the purpose of the setup is deleted by the payoff. Just like how the Teacher of the law redefined “neighbor” to justify his racism when the law’s purpose was to end racism. An example would be the book burning you mentioned. If you pay attention to the Prequels. Qui-Gon is the only one who explains the religious side Force to Anakin. Obi-Wan never really does, and frankly the Jedi are so preoccupied with the political machinations of the Senate, they don’t really seem interested in becoming “one with the Force”. When Anakin finally goes to Yoda for advice in Revenge of the Sith, Yoda can’t help him, because all of Anakin’s religious training has been coming from Palpatine (this is Obi-Wan’s great failure. He never taught Anakin how to “read” the “law”). Fast forward to the OT, and Obi-Wan’s first instruction of Luke involves explaining what the Force is, followed by Yoda’s expansion on that explanation in Empire Strikes Back. Suddenly Yoda and Obi-Wan are preoccupied with the Mystical Side of the Force, which means their repentance has been genuine. The way Lucas was setting up the his version of the sequels, Luke was going to renew the Jedi Order with the worship of the Force (not power and politics) at it’s center. I can see how Yoda burning “most” of the books can serve as a reminder for Luke to keep the main thing the main thing, but that is not where the story was leading. George was setting up his version of the Book of Acts, where Paul is brought in to explain how the New Covenant aligns with the purpose of the Old Law, by “reading” it correctly. If the purpose of the law was to end racism and discrimination in all of it’s forms, then to quote Paul “There is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female,” all humans are made in the image of God and are of infinite value. Paul is a master “reader” and because of that he is a master “liver”, his reading leads to a well lived life. Lucas was setting up Luke to be that kind of character, because he is also a master “reader”. He sees through the Emperor’s trap, and refuses to kill his father, because the will of the Force is not that Luke kill Vader and continue the cycle of violence, it is that he redeem him, and give birth to a new world of balance. When I saw the Last Jedi for the first time, I have to admit I was furious. The idea that Luke would be able to see through Palpatine and confront the darkness in himself in order to stay his hand, but then revert back to worse than his starting point, made no sense to me. Luke’s role was going to be like Paul’s. He was going to be tasked with building the New Temple. In short, I think Disney got the key “laws” that were present in the other STAR WARS films, but they couldn’t “read” it well enough to continue the compelling parable George was telling.
In short the concept of “Law” vs. “Reading” doesn’t just apply to interpreting scripture. It’s also a key concept whenever you’re editing someone else’s writing. Whenever I edit someone else’s story, I spend most of my time trying to figure out not “what did they write?” but rather “what are they trying to say, and is there a way for me to make that point clearer to the audience?” If I’ve done my job well, my edit of George’s six films should be as true to his ideas as possible. At least that was my aim when I recut them.
I think the best way to summarize what you’re saying here is that the sequels take random bits and pieces from the original 6 movies without understanding exactly why they worked in the first place. I’d agree with this assessment, but this doesn’t discount the fact that there certainly exist theological elements in the sequels. It just means that they are present there because of where they originate from, and the writers only put them there subconsciously at best.
As EddieDean said, I’d highly recommend at least checking out some edits of the sequels that exist here. Hal’s Ascendant edit and TFA: Starlight in particular. The debatable topic here is whether or not a skilled editor’s hand might be able to take the disparate elements in the sequels and create a more uniform framework between them, and the saga at large. I’d argue that we are very close with these edits on this forum.
Fair point that the name giving usually derives from the higher power, but in the case of the Force I’m not sure how it could have been executed much better than it was. When attuned to the Force, it only communicates to you through feelings and instincts. Who’s to say she didn’t feel the Force telling her in that moment it was proper for her to take on that mantle? It basically did, after all, since Luke and Leia show up as Force ghosts (who are one with the Force). Ben too, if you’re watching Ascendant.
Okay, hear me out. . . The Rey name thing is kinda a bad example for what I’m getting at. The basic thing I’m saying is that I had no idea what JJ Abrams was trying to do in that scene, or why Rian Johnson burned all the books, or the point of Maz or what Snoke stands for. I simply don’t get it. In George’s case I’ve read a lot of the same books he has, and bless his heart, he’s super consistent in his themes across all six of his films, so I have little trouble re-editing them to be a little truer to his original vision. If I can’t understand what you’re trying to do, I can’t fix it. Someone else might be able to, but I’m not clever enough, haha!
Just tell me if you’d rather not discuss this any further and detract from the other great stuff you’ve got going on here (love that ESB duel btw), I’ve just never had an opportunity to discuss the sequels under this lense on this forum before lol.
Rey’s arc throughout the trilogy is anchored in her feelings of inadequacy, much like Kylo Ren. She grows up her whole life thinking her parents abandoned her, and even though she finds out this isn’t true, she then thinks Luke, Leia, and all of her friends will abandon her because of her dark heritage/tendencies because that’s what she subconsciously expects. This is quite similar to how you can be offered salvation, but believe that you are unworthy of it because of your past transgressions or who you feel that you naturally are. Oftentimes, this is indeed because of a biological parent who is an awful person and you just don’t want to turn out like them. Rey accepting the name of Skywalker at the end of the movie makes sense because she spends a good chunk of it convincing herself that she doesn’t deserve to belong with anyone because she’s a monster - thus why she tried to abandon herself on Ahch-To. She is finally accepting her salvation/redemption in the end by declaring herself a Skywalker.
The serpent cave scene in TROS is actually a metaphor and foreshadowing of this. Rey represents the injured serpent - spawn of Palpatine (the deceiving serpent) and traumatized by her past. While appearing to be evil on the outside, once the serpent is healed from its trauma, it is kind and helpful to our main characters and helps them escape from the tunnels. Kylo Ren holds a similar belief to Rey: his parents shipped him off to his uncle because they didn’t know how to deal with his dark tendencies, only for his uncle proceeding to (from his perspective) nearly kill him. He sees himself as a monster because of his family being scared of him from the jump, and admits this to Rey in TLJ. So he leans further and further into this persona because nobody ever expected anything different out of him, despite the fact that being evil isn’t fulfilling to him. His water baptism back into Ben Solo occurs on the Death Star II wreckage because his mother wanted to let him know she still loved him even at the cost of her own life (another sacrificial archetype).
Rian Johnson didn’t actually burn the Jedi texts - if you have a keen eye you’ll notice Finn opening a drawer on the Falcon with them at the end of TLJ. Rey studies them in TROS to learn about the Sith way finders and Force healing. Yoda was simply instructing Luke to not be such a fundamentalist Jedi. There is great wisdom in the sacred texts, but if you get so hung up on understanding every single little detail (and why they might not make sense given modern understanding), you’ll forget how to actually put your faith into practice in your life. Yoda reminds him to focus on the here and now, “the need in front of your nose”. That need is to pass on what he has learned to the next generation, including his failures, so that they might live a more peaceful life than he did. This is actually a really beautiful scene that I’ll give TLJ credit for.
I’m not sure Maz is supposed to represent anything significant, but Snoke is actually a pretty good representation of the “principalities and powers” concept. There are rich and powerful people who believe that they are in complete control of everything, and so they will do terrible things for their own gain - little do they know that they are merely a puppet for a dark force that will cast them aside as soon as they are no longer useful for an even more sinister takeover. The power Snoke had in life was never his, it was given unto him by Palpatine. In real life we might say these people “sold their soul to the devil”.
I can kinda see your angle there. Most of the problems are in TLJ, personally - best exemplified in Snoke’s line from TLJ: “Darkness rises and light to meet it”. In the Biblical worldview, darkness/hell is simply being separated from the absence of God’s light. This is similar to how in Star Wars the dark side is a corruption of the Force, and it being balanced is there being absolutely absolutely no dark side (contrary to popular belief). These aren’t supposed to be opposite forces that are kept equal to each other in power. The dark side is a cancer.
And you can’t say it’s just that Snoke has a misunderstanding of the Force, because Luke says the same thing to Rey: “powerful light, powerful dark”. I think the only way you can retcon this line is that Luke is referring to the potential a powerful person can have to either do good or bad things. The real world answer is that DOTF was originally going to make the dark side an amoral thing, and you should tap into both sides of the Force (yuck!). I don’t understand the people that enjoy that leaked script at all.
Character regression is an entirely different discussion. I do think it’s possible to slip back into old patterns and habits in life, so there is some interesting narrative potential even within the context of a Christian framework. You are supposed to remain constantly vigilant or else the dark side (devil) can devour you like a lion. There’s a solid story there to be told there, and it reminds me of Voldemort’s return in the Harry Potter series with the ministry denying his return and not doing anything about it (New Republic vibes). I just don’t find the way they did it with Luke all that believable. He nearly killed his father because he’d threatened his sister; we are never shown exactly what Ben would do according to his dream. And there wasn’t much payoff for Han or Leia’s regressions besides redeeming their son in TROS.
For the new main characters, I think they did actually end up adhering to what the Force wanted them to be. It’s why I like Kylo’s character so much. He reveres his grandfather to an unhealthy degree, and keeps pursuing the dark side because he thinks that is who he truly is and will satisfy him. But this just makes him more and more miserable. It’s only when he becomes Ben Solo again that he feels peace and love. As for Rey, yes, I can see why you might think that her taking on the Skywalker name is a denial of the truth the Force created her as, but I simply see that as an example of the good that can be made out of bad. George refers to Palpatine as the devil himself, so it’s hilariously ironic how his machinations end up being as own undoing. Adoption into a new family and being given a new name are also solidly Biblical concepts.
I genuinely believe there are plenty of concepts within the sequels that can align with these ideals, just not within the idea that the end of ROTJ is supposed to be the second coming.
Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. From the character regression side, I totally agree that can be a compelling narrative and that it works within George’s and a Christian framework. Pretty much all of the main characters regress across the Prequels. I was simply arguing that George set up Luke, Leia, and Han not to regress, based on where his system was leading. I actually see Return of the Jedi as the “Crucifixion/Resurrection” point in STAR WARS narrative, with Lucas’ planned Episode IX serving as the “Second Coming”. I also agree that Kylo is a really great character/idea in principle, and you’re correct that he does fit into George’s system very nicely.
As for Rey, I was simply making a joke about the mechanics of her name giving. In the Bible it is usually God who renames someone to reroute their destiny/identity, like when Jacob (Deceiver) is renamed Israel (Prince of God). In Rey’s case she renames herself based on who she identifies with, putting herself in God’s place as the identity giver. In that way, Rey calls herself what she likes, but isn’t being “called” to a task. Her main “journey” isn’t so much to save the galaxy, but to find out who she really is, at least that’s the way JJ Abrams framed it. She ends up right where she started on a desert planet with a stick and a random old lady, lol! Again, nothing wrong with that. Disney is making a modern story where the hero must create their own identity, and Lucas was telling a story from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
Fair point that the name giving usually derives from the higher power, but in the case of the Force I’m not sure how it could have been executed much better than it was. When attuned to the Force, it only communicates to you through feelings and instincts. Who’s to say she didn’t feel the Force telling her in that moment it was proper for her to take on that mantle? It basically did, after all, since Luke and Leia show up as Force ghosts (who are one with the Force). Ben too, if you’re watching Ascendant.
I can kinda see your angle there. Most of the problems are in TLJ, personally - best exemplified in Snoke’s line from TLJ: “Darkness rises and light to meet it”. In the Biblical worldview, darkness/hell is simply being separated from the absence of God’s light. This is similar to how in Star Wars the dark side is a corruption of the Force, and it being balanced is there being absolutely absolutely no dark side (contrary to popular belief). These aren’t supposed to be opposite forces that are kept equal to each other in power. The dark side is a cancer.
And you can’t say it’s just that Snoke has a misunderstanding of the Force, because Luke says the same thing to Rey: “powerful light, powerful dark”. I think the only way you can retcon this line is that Luke is referring to the potential a powerful person can have to either do good or bad things. The real world answer is that DOTF was originally going to make the dark side an amoral thing, and you should tap into both sides of the Force (yuck!). I don’t understand the people that enjoy that leaked script at all.
Character regression is an entirely different discussion. I do think it’s possible to slip back into old patterns and habits in life, so there is some interesting narrative potential even within the context of a Christian framework. You are supposed to remain constantly vigilant or else the dark side (devil) can devour you like a lion. There’s a solid story there to be told there, and it reminds me of Voldemort’s return in the Harry Potter series with the ministry denying his return and not doing anything about it (New Republic vibes). I just don’t find the way they did it with Luke all that believable. He nearly killed his father because he’d threatened his sister; we are never shown exactly what Ben would do according to his dream. And there wasn’t much payoff for Han or Leia’s regressions besides redeeming their son in TROS.
For the new main characters, I think they did actually end up adhering to what the Force wanted them to be. It’s why I like Kylo’s character so much. He reveres his grandfather to an unhealthy degree, and keeps pursuing the dark side because he thinks that is who he truly is and will satisfy him. But this just makes him more and more miserable. It’s only when he becomes Ben Solo again that he feels peace and love. As for Rey, yes, I can see why you might think that her taking on the Skywalker name is a denial of the truth the Force created her as, but I simply see that as an example of the good that can be made out of bad. George refers to Palpatine as the devil himself, so it’s hilariously ironic how his machinations end up being as own undoing. Adoption into a new family and being given a new name are also solidly Biblical concepts.
I genuinely believe there are plenty of concepts within the sequels that can align with these ideals, just not within the idea that the end of ROTJ is supposed to be the second coming.
potty meister said:
I love this explanation so muchOh good! I’m glad that made sense. If you want to know why all the Disney STAR WARS stuff hits different, that is the reason why. Disney abandoned the spiritual narrative framework George was using to link the original six films together, probably because they never realized it was there, haha!
Just curious. What changes do you think they could have made to the sequels to make them align within this framework?
Technically, TROS ends with two sacrifices of love. Rey gives her life to stop Palpatine from killing her friends, and then Ben gives his life so that Rey can have hers back.
I think that would probably work the best. Although it does feel like there is a missing 3PO line as they go up the ramp? Or is that how the original movie goes? I can’t remember.
His “Oh dear” could be shifted back a little bit to be at the same time that he starts flailing his arms around and I think it would feel more organic.
Sanded down excellently 😉
I just heard the music track entitled “Obi-Wan’s Revelation” for the first time. Interestingly it was removed from the final film. I’m curious as to people’s opinions on the track and if it should be reinstated?
Does seriously nobody care about this unreleased ROTJ track I found? 😭😂
Sorry dude, not every post gets replies.
But someone has already tried it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFz8W7fYMy4
This feels right. Definitely agree on the volume needing to be decreased slightly, though.
The abruptness of how that scene ends without the reversing of the footage has been a pain point for Hal’s edit of AoTC for a while now.
Interesting, so you reversed the footage of their kiss in order to remove the whole “I shouldn’t have done that” thing from Padme. Very smart. I don’t think a casual viewer would notice whatsoever.
I believe Hal was eyeing a series of alternative cuts of the prequel trilogy for the next release that reinstates the Gungan city, among other things.
Yeah, that looks like what was done to his ghost for Ascendant.
Like many others, when it came to the force ghost scene, I used to be an adamant Shaw supporter. I still like the original very much, but I’ve also come to see the merit in continuity between trilogies. The Kenobi show also sparked my interest in trying to come up with something that could possibly tie things together a bit better. Here’s something I put together using footage of Hayden’s face from recent interviews so that it’s more age-accurate.
This is a big improvement over the official version.
Oh yeah, agreed.
Was the wide shot of him touched at all? He looks a tad younger in it.
Crimson Maul’s deepfake work was very good, but it’s from a few years back already. I’ve been hoping that, with the advancements in AI, Crimson Maul or someone else would create a really clean version of the unmasking of Vader featuring Hayden Christensen. If there’s anyone out there with that capability, please consider taking on the project. Just about any Star Wars fan would be interested in seeing that, and the fan-editing community would be in your debt.
I could quite easily do the voice work for a scene like this, I think. I’d just need to get a Hayden voice clone, and use the tool that takes pre-existing voice work and basically applies the voice clone as a filter over it. So you end up with the exact same line delivery as Shaw, but in Hayden’s voice.
The only reason this method didn’t work when I tried it for the Kenobi flashback scene is because his voice was too entangled with the lightsaber noises. But this scene is perfectly quiet aside from the music, which would be easier to isolate.
Ah, fair enough.
Wow, very niche and interesting. Love it so far.
+1
Honestly just the restructuring alone of AotC to be more in line with ESB’s act structure is amazing. Wouldn’t mind seeing this in the updated/canon TAS edit of yours, Hal 😉
Does anybody remember seeing a test clip where Rey blasts Finn with a little bit of Force lightning on the Death Star wreckage? Just curious if that still exists, or if the VFX was ever in a serviceable condition.
That sounds good.
I’d need to watch the scene back, but when the kids are down below arguing, is there a place you might be able to end the scene both before they split up and also before the camera shows the ship up above? Ideally we need to create the impression that the resort dumps their ship down below to be scrapped.
I kinda have a feeling that Imperial education wouldn’t be focusing on the Jedi too much, though. Somebody like Anakin Skywalker would get a tiny footnote, at most. Luke already is confused about the Force alone, after all.
Granted, if the Empire were strategically smart about this detail, they would have Imperial propaganda say that Anakin was the only Jedi who didn’t turn on Palpatine and died protecting him from the assassination attempt that left Palpatine “scarred and deformed”.
EDIT: The most likely canon answer, though, is that the Empire says Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker since we know they say he died during Order 66 in canon. So my first point still stands.
Had an idea for a small tweak, which I implemented in my editor. I swapped two R2-D2 sound effects during the scene where Luke meets Obi-Wan, so that he now responds to Obi-Wan saying he never owned a droid with a “sad beep.”
This is brilliant.
My edit has been on the back burner but occasionally game out how to address things I want to address.
Changing the podrace announcer was a dream out of my reach but with AI it would be easy.
This is not perfect (link good for 2 days) but it’s pretty good:
“This video isn’t available.”
It was Max Reebo as the pod racer announcer. Looked pretty darn good, too.