Jani-wan

jarbear said:

I agree with riginal on that. Remove the sillier aspects of the battle, which less would indeed be more for them. Adding more rebel soldiers / battle scenes would not take away the point about a lesser society taking on a stronger one. There were times it was too goofy and silly that took away too much from the whole thing.

yeah, making them more VC, as it was intended, won’t hurt I guess

Matt.F said:
You can remove the declaration that they are the “best” elite legion of Stormtroopers and the sequence still admirably achieves the intended goal.

Does it have to be true though? The emperor is manipulating Luke, and fear and anger are the path to the dark side.
Just another thought.

Matt.F said:

Adywan, I have a small suggestion for a dialogue tweak. In the throne room sequence the Emperor delivers the line “An entire legion of my best troops await them.”

Even the best can be defeated by locals, using home field advantage and good tactics, even against overwhelming numbers.
Just think of Thermopylae, or the Battle of Myeongnyang.
The persian Immortals were one of the best trained elit warriors at the time, and pretty sure the Japanease navy was not to be underestimated either.
And they lost. Big time.
So it can happen.

Han’s rescue plan discussion

I thought I try to fix this rescue, so that it makes sense.
So I was thinkin what I would have done.
Well it took me like 30 minutes to come up with a viable plan how Lando could infiltrate relatively fast as mercenary, and not getting killed in the process, to explain how could he get there in a week.
But to come up with a good rescue plan that works in a movie is rather difficult.
The main problem is that Luke waltzes in like it is Walmart.
Yeah only 2 guards and Bib Fortuna? Way too easy. One would expect better security.
Still Luke will get in, no matter what I put in Luke’s way, so there is no need for the others to get in after Lando. They better come with Luke. Damn.
So naturally my plan would be rather simple. Hire 6 elit mercs, probably mandalorians, and frontal assault would just work fine. Jabba either gives up Solo or they shoot up the place.
Oh and before anyone thinks they have no money to hire mercs, Han and Chewie probably still has the Princess reward money, and Lando surely has some offshore stash from skimming Tibanna gas deals.
So if this is the plan that works best, we have no movie.
Need another plan.
A worse one.

So what we 'know":

1. First of all, all major characters have to be involved somehow.
2. Han is not mobile.
3. Jabba is a gangster boss so one would think it is heavily guarded fortress, and a frontal assault probably gets everyone killed, so Luke’s entry needs to be ‘REVISITED’ (pun intended). There should be like 10 guards in his way, and a defense turret or two. (which I would like to see in a supposed to be fortress).
4. It would only make sense that Jabba rarely leaves his fortress. Only for personal reasons, or to conduct business with equaly highly ranked players like him, or for official duty, like opening ceremony of an event. (podracing). (I know)
5. Lando is already in as a merc, which is a good move
6. Sending Artoo with the message is ok.

Needs to be solved

1. What to do with Leia
2. What to do with Threepio
3. Get Luke in
4. Get Jabba out of the palace

So far so bad. I can see why Lucas struggled with this.
I was thinkin about this all week, which is several hours, and Im nowhere with a plan.
But some idiotic moves actually starts to make sense, if I overlook some other idiotic things.
And I realized that to criticise the plan, I have to come up with a better one. Well, I got nothing.
So if anyone says again that it’s crap because Lucas didn’t care about the plan, I will smack him in the face. Virtually.

doubleofive said:

Because at that point it’s an actual picture of the station. They wouldn’t have the plans.

I know.
It’s just something to think about, when making a final decision.

Just stumbled upon this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC9abcLLQpI&feature=youtu.be&t=82
Rogue One official trailer had the correct Death Star
FWIW

chyron8472 said:

But seriously, Max Rebo isn’t very realistic-looking.

Especially when his trunk waggles back and forth when he laughs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmpN_gai2yI&t=3m07s

Yeah, this guy is terrible.
But I assume this is so obvious, that fixing this was one of the first on Ady’s list.

ray_afraid said:

Is there any way to make the rescue plan make sense?

Can’t think of any.
It is a mess.
But I don’t think there is anything you can do, without reshooting this part of movie.

nhoj3 said:

Jani-wan said:

Not absolute, but close to it, yes. Most of the times.
It is because Im thinking every possible angle that I can come up with, argue myself, trying to find ways to prove that Im wrong, before I post anything.
Other people don’t. They try to bend everything to fit their desired outcome.
Still Im always open to change my mind, if the argument is convincing.

Every possible angle, eh?

Boba Fett: Why does this guy with the “too good to be true” deal insist on hiding his face to us? What, he want to be a palace guard and start immediately? Make him show his face. Oh look, it’s Han Solo’s friend Lando Calrissian that objected to me bringing Solo to Jabba. How suspicious. Kill him.

I’m leaving it here. I can see where this is going. Feel free to consider it a week in your mind.

1. There is a subtle difference that you might not understand, so I highlight it for you.
   I said every possible angle I CAN THINK OF, and NOT every possible angle.
   Reading comprehension matters.

2. Lando is not the ‘too good to be true deal guy’ in my plan. It is the hired negotiator. Lando is merely posing as a hired mercenary protecting him. And the ‘guy’ leaves after the deal is completed.
   Went over your head completely.

3. Mercenaries hide their face, but you think Boba Fett thinks they shouldn’t? With a helmet on his head, eh?
   And he gets suspicious because a seemingly pro asks if there is any work for him, after his job is done with the ‘too good to be true deal guy’?
   Really?

Maybe you are the one who should be considering things in your mind for weeks.
And Im done arguing this. It doesn’t belong here anymore.

Editroid said:

Jani-wan said:

Editroid said:

The canon firmly establishes that ROTJ takes place one year after the events of TESB.

How?

Every bit of official information around says that in the Star Wars universe, TESB takes place 3 ABY (3 years after the Battle of Yavin), and ROTJ takes place 4 ABY.

Yeah I understand that.
My question was how does canon establish that as a fact?
Someone said it, is just not good enough. Or even if everybody says so is still not enough. There must a reasonable explanation, but this seems like just another urban legend became accepted fact, as the ‘fact’ that Owen Lars is a moisture farmer.

Editroid said:

The canon firmly establishes that ROTJ takes place one year after the events of TESB.

How?

Editroid said:

Jani-wan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Also great to hear that Lando is gonna die.

??
What did I miss?

Don’t worry, it was all just a joke.

Ok. 😃

nhoj3 said:

Jani-wan said:

Oh, my.
It does not have to be 2 weeks.
It can be 3 weeks, 4 weeks. can be anything that is reasonable.
It can not be 6 month. That is not reasonable.

Can not sacrifice common sense for actors aging, that is barely recognizable, and the character’s aging could be easily chalked up to effects of resent events.

Jabba is probably on Tatooine. That is his headquarters, at least in the movies.
But for the sake of this argument let’s assume that he can be anywhere.
You do not go to every single place Jabba owns, and infiltrate and etc…
I lay it out for you, how would I find Luke the easy way if Im Lando.
I hire someone to negotiate my deal with Jabba, probably an old acquaintance, who can be trusted with this for the right amount of money, and merely provide escort as a ‘mercenary bodyguard’.
Contact Jabba’s nearest ‘representative’ and present an offer with one condition, that I only make deals with Jabba himself. Make the offer irrefusable, success is guaranteed. You can always count on greed.
Now I have Jabba’s location, and free pass, and don’t have to travel around the galaxy planet to planet and infiltrate and etc…
When deal is completed, ask Jabba for a job. With good credentials Im in.
Call Luke.
How long does this takes?
Couple of days, a week maybe, depending on travel distance, since we only know where Tatooine is but we don’t know where the fleet is.
Searching the galaxy for months is just stupid.

You’re pretty absolute with your opinions. I’m willing to at least entertain the idea of more flexibility in life (and interesting storytelling). For arguments sake I’m willing to throw out all other “what ifs” and go with your plan above.

1. Finding an old acquaintance- maybe one day, maybe weeks, maybe months. Perhaps your acquaintance is on a smuggling run. Perhaps he’s laying low from the Empire. Perhaps he’s imprisoned by the Empire and needs to be liberated to buy the goodwill to set up the Jabba deal. Who’s to say?
2. Arrange a meeting with Jabba - maybe one day, maybe weeks. A good negotiator doesn’t want to seem desperate. Who’s to say?
3. Travel time - pretty flexible on the Star Wars galaxy. Who’s to say?
4. Initial deal and infiltration- Jabba would have to be the most gullible slug in the galaxy to hire on your schedule. We’ve already seen from Boushh that he’s smarter than that. Donnie Brasco went undercover for 6 years. John Sherwood went undercover for 3 years. Do you honestly think Lando would be hired as a palace guard, holding a lethal weapon only feet from Jabba in a few days? Months (at a minimum) is more likely, and only after Lando had proven himself by doing some pretty awful things. Again, who’s to say?

I keep saying “who’s to say” to drive home the point that opinions aren’t absolutes. Life doesn’t always take the straight path from A to B. I think that it’s more than “reasonable” that “months” have expired. Much more so than “weeks”.

Not absolute, but close to it, yes. Most of the times.
It is because Im thinking every possible angle that I can come up with, argue myself, trying to find ways to prove that Im wrong, before I post anything.
Other people don’t. They try to bend everything to fit their desired outcome.
Still Im always open to change my mind, if the argument is convincing.

1. How many ‘friends’ you have on Facebook? Certainly not one. Probably hundreds.
   As most of the people. Just as Lando on ‘Star Wars Underworld Facebook’.

2. In this case the only goal is to get there, and not to negotiate the best price. Actually what you do is offer the deal of the century, so you get it done for sure, and as fast as you can. Did you ever try to sell something? Offer it at half price or less. It’ll be gone in a day on the internet. Or less.
   Lando only needs a negotiator, because he has to sell that he is a mercenary. If he goes himself to sell the goods, probably he won’t get the job.

3. Yeah, but I thought I made that clear.
   Im not sure about this, but I think you can fly from the outer edge of the mid-rim to the other edge in about a week or less.
   Surely not weeks, or a month.

4. Yes I would.
   If well known criminal can vouch for Lando, and sure he has his ties to the underworld as a scoundrel, he can be hired on the spot. That is all it takes.

ray_afraid said:

There are several things in the movie that let’s the audience know that some time has passed.

1. Luke’s demeanor is very different, showing a shift in his character and maturity since we last saw him.
2. He’ built a new lightsaber. That means hes tracked down the how-to guide and all the parts n pieces. Maybe you can do that in an evening, but I’m doubting it. He’s wearing Jedi robes/outfit indicating that he’s become more involved in the Jedi ways.
3. Lando has infiltrated Jabbas palace to the point that he can walk around there freely and seems to have some sort of guard job. Luke & Co. knew where Han was being taken, but it’s not a place you can just walk into and do as you please. It would take time to work your way in and be accepted as part of the gang. That don’t happen overnight either.
4. Yoda has gotten very weak and is about to die. No signs of that last time we saw him.

Just my thoughts. It’s cool if you disagree.

1. A traumatic event can do that to you. The fight with Vader and even hearing what Vader said, certainly qualifies as a very traumatic event in my opinion.

2. I don’t know what makes you think that Luke searched after ESB but not before. He had 3 years to try learn about Jedi and the Force. It’s hard to imagine, that he did not try.
   And we don’t know if Obi-wan did not help him at all, prior to that scene on Hoth. But I see no reason to think that he did not.
   I think he already had that chrystal, and skill to put a lightsabre together, but he had his lightsabre and didn’t need another.
   Actually I read a book, probably non new canon, that deals with Luke trying to learn to build a lightsabre, and it is set prior to ESB.

3. If well known criminal can vouch for Lando, and sure he has his ties to the underworld as a scoundrel, he can be hired on the spot. That is all it takes.

4. Yes Yoda is what I thought first is the most problematic with a short time theory. But I know, unfortunately, that a couple of weeks is a lot more then people would think.

TV’s Frink said:

Also great to hear that Lando is gonna die.

??
What did I miss?

adywan said:

And why does Luke only react strangely towards Leia, that she senses, when he reappears at the briefing and not at all before that?

Very good point. I completely missed that.

DZ-330 said:

Jani-wan said:

DZ-330 said:

Reworking the first paragraph of the original crawl can fix the reordering of the Tatooine and Dagobah scenes.

STAR
WARS

EPISODE VI
RETURN OF THE JEDI

Luke Skywalker has returned to
the planet of Dagobah to continue
his training as a Jedi Knight.
Meanwhile, his friends have located
Han Solo at the lair of the vile
gangster Jabba the Hutt. But he
left his friend hanging on the
wall for six month…

Meanwhile Darth Vader went to
Tatooine to set a trap for Luke
knowing that he will show up
to save his friend. Vader
waited five month but Luke
never showed up leaving his
friend hanging on the wall

Vader finally left to report
to the Emperor, who sent him
to speed up to construction
of the new armored space station
more powerful, then the first
Death Star … when Luke
finally showed up.

Fixed it 😉

Let’s set ROTJ a month or so after ESB with the reordering, the crawl could still work. Lando and Chewie found Han within a week or two and Lando applies and gets a job at Jabba’s to have an inside-man. Luke got word of Lando’s plan and went back to Dagobah to confront Yoda and Ben about Vader being his father on his way to Tatooine, he needs to know for sure. Leia gets restless waiting for Luke to get there and decides to go in with Chewie and get Han out herself. Luke senses this and leaves for Tatooine right away. The movie then continues as originally scripted.

Makes sense.
Still Luke needs time to recover, and if Lando has Han’s location before he heals completely, he can’t go to Dagobah to ask Yoda. And not to train.
But we don’t know how long it takes to heal, so this could work I guess.

So the next problem, why they seperate when they leave Tatooine.

nhoj3 said:

Jani-wan said:

Then it must be changed.
It was 2 weeks.
Easy.
BTW I do not accept canon, if it makes no sense. It’s like accepting the geocentric model, when we know it is wrong. Disney must do a better job.

Let me start by saying that clearly no single approach is going to satisfy everyone.

Is there anything that satisfies everyone?

nhoj3 said:

Having said that, I feel that you’re being overly confident in an argument that doesn’t stand up to its own measures. You talk of “sense” but how does it make any “sense” if only 2 weeks have passed in the story when the actors (particularly Mark Hamill) have clearly aged years? In this regard a longer passage of time makes more “sense”.

Maybe some people would believe that it makes more sense that:

• It might take some time to find a single object in a rather large galaxy.
• That perhaps Jabba may have more than a single stronghold to infiltrate
• That it takes time to build a credible backstory to infiltrate an organization as Lando has
• That this whole cycle may have to be repeated if Han isn’t found in that location

As a kid that actually had to wait 3 years between ESB and ROTJ I had no issues following the continuing adventures of Marvel Star Wars (minus Han Solo) while Luke and company searched the galaxy foe their frozen friend.

You’ve asked several times “how long would you leave your friend on a wall?” I don’t think it’s a relevant question. “Scoundrel” Lando is infiltrating in a way that Luke cannot. Everyone is playing their role on the team.

Luke returning to Yoda to continue his training and admitting that he was wrong to run off half-cocked shows maturity and character growth. That makes “sense” from a storytelling perspective.

Oh, my.
It does not have to be 2 weeks.
It can be 3 weeks, 4 weeks. can be anything that is reasonable.
It can not be 6 month. That is not reasonable.

Can not sacrifice common sense for actors aging, that is barely recognizable, and the character’s aging could be easily chalked up to effects of resent events.

As a kid a had to wait 3 years too. Still, whatever you read in those Marvel comics, is just irrelevant, if not logical.

Jabba is probably on Tatooine. That is his headquarters, at least in the movies.
But for the sake of this argument let’s assume that he can be anywhere.
You do not go to every single place Jabba owns, and infiltrate and etc…
I lay it out for you, how would I find Luke the easy way if Im Lando.
I hire someone to negotiate my deal with Jabba, probably an old acquaintance, who can be trusted with this for the right amount of money, and merely provide escort as a ‘mercenary bodyguard’.
Contact Jabba’s nearest ‘representative’ and present an offer with one condition, that I only make deals with Jabba himself. Make the offer irrefusable, success is guaranteed. You can always count on greed.
Now I have Jabba’s location, and free pass, and don’t have to travel around the galaxy planet to planet and infiltrate and etc…
When deal is completed, ask Jabba for a job. With good credentials Im in.
Call Luke.
How long does this takes?
Couple of days, a week maybe, depending on travel distance, since we only know where Tatooine is but we don’t know where the fleet is.
Searching the galaxy for months is just stupid.

ray_afraid said:

Jani-wan said:

ray_afraid said:

Jani-wan said:

YodaFan67 said:

I only have one suggestion for this, but I think it improves the film greatly:
Start the film with Luke on Dagobah
It just makes so much more sense

Do you have friends?
How long would you let them hangin on a wall? Weeks? Month? If they survive that long at all.

Luke’s waiting to hear from Lando before he does anything. This is set up at the end of ESB.
In the meantime, nothing’s stopping him from going back to Yoda and it makes more sense that he would.
You can click the link in my sig for my ideal opining to ROTJ.

Oh, come on.
How long does it take to find Jabba?
How long does it take to sell him some spice at an unreasonably low price, and offer him more, where this came from?
How long does it take to see that Han is hanging on the wall?
How long does it take to make a “phone call”?
Actually I don’t think Luke has even time to recover properly.

The movie disagrees with you. But that’s ok.

No it does not.
But that’s ok.

DZ-330 said:

Reworking the first paragraph of the original crawl can fix the reordering of the Tatooine and Dagobah scenes.

STAR
WARS

EPISODE VI
RETURN OF THE JEDI

Luke Skywalker has returned to
the planet of Dagobah to continue
his training as a Jedi Knight.
Meanwhile, his friends have located
Han Solo at the lair of the vile
gangster Jabba the Hutt. But he
left his friend hanging on the
wall for six month…

Meanwhile Darth Vader went to
Tatooine to set a trap for Luke
knowing that he will show up
to save his friend. Vader
waited five month but Luke
never showed up leaving his
friend hanging on the wall

Vader finally left to report
to the Emperor, who sent him
to speed up to construction
of the new armored space station
more powerful, then the first
Death Star … when Luke
finally showed up.

Fixed it 😉

ChainsawAsh said:

Jani-wan said:

doubleofive said:

If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”

I have no idea where this 6-12 months came from.
I think I read 6 month in the book, but Im not sure. It was like 30 years ago.
But it just does not make any sense.

I think current canon says 6 months between ESB and ROTJ.

Then it must be changed.
It was 2 weeks.
Easy.
BTW I do not accept canon, if it makes no sense. It’s like accepting the geocentric model, when we know it is wrong. Disney must do a better job.

doublepost

doubleofive said:

In the wake of Force Awakens, we’re still arguing that a Jedi needs extensive training? 😉

Well, it takes some time to find a lightsabre 😉

DominicCobb said:

ROTJ makes no sense in this regard. Yoda makes a pretty big deal about Luke needing to finish his training,

And he nearly finished it, by facing and surviving Vader.

doubleofive said:

If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”

I have no idea where this 6-12 months came from.
I think I read 6 month in the book, but Im not sure. It was like 30 years ago.
But it just does not make any sense.