JakeRyan17

idir_hh said:

After watching TFA for the first time I got the impression that Luke went specifically to the first Jedi temple to learn something, perhaps even searching for the source of Snoke’s power.

That’s possibly subtext. The actual text says he believes himself to have failed with Kylo and goes into exile to the first Jedi Temple from the guilt, despite the growing threat of Snoke and the First Order.

NeverarGreat said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

Well Hamill himself said that a more appropriate reason for him going into exile would be the tragic death of his child. There are many other ways as well, such as an accidental death of one of his students, the turn of many of his students to the Dark Side that he could do nothing to prevent, a failure in training Leia which almost led to her death, his wife leaving him due to him prioritizing the Jedi school and refusing to return even after he left it to a next-in-command, Luke losing a battle to Snoke himself…

There are many ways in which Luke could have been on that island which didn’t have him fail at a test which he overcame years earlier. I get that Rian might have been going for the idea that just because someone succeeds once does not mean they will forever and this amplifies his wretchedness, but it comes at the cost of the simplicity of mythic storytelling. I think Rian was trying to say something subtle like this, but for many it ended up being too clever by half.

Then your beef is with Abrams, because he is the one that made Luke go into hiding for his failures with Kylo. Look at that crawl again, and re-watch the conversation between Han, Rey and Finn. That motivation was written by Abrams, Johnson just fleshed it out.

Also, how many issues when it comes to temptation and interpersonal connection get solved by one choice that one time? He overcame that choice in both scenes, but was tempted and challenged by his more base way of thinking- y’know, like a person.

thebluefrog said:

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

JJ started it, yes, but it was Rian who took the ball and ran with it. Hamill definitely didn’t want things to go they way they did in TLJ. JJ’s mystery box COULD have been opened in a more appropriate way.

How? By going against everything set up in the prior film? By having a primary hero not grow or develop over 30 years? By sidelining the new characters to have Luke take over the story again?

The only other interesting choice would’ve been for Luke to be revealed the puppet master behind Snoke.

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

*had been listened to by JJ Abrams, who introduced the Luke abandoning the galaxy in shame plotline.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Did RoS really try to please everyone, though? It feels more like it tried to please those who hated TLJ.

It tried. By Rey’s parents still being “nobodies” (but by choice) and Rose’s cameo. It was half-assed, but attempted to please everyone.

IlFanEditore said:

Applause.

Cheers, haha

Grumpy Luke is giving a sense of logic as to why Luke would abandon the galaxy in shame (as the crawl and Han talked about).

Rose And Holdo were created because Finn and Poe didn’t have distinct or fleshed out personalities. They needed to be flawed and different to each other, and a plot showing their individual weaknesses needed to see them both fail, learn, and grow. This also is why the “useless” Canto Bight sequence was incorporated.

The Knights of Ren were absent because they were a one-line throwaway concept by Abrams, and Johnson didn’t want them to be useless fighters who were introduced and subsequently killed off. He created and used the Praetorian Guards instead. Abrams would later relegate the Knights of Ren to the same shallow goons, but with less impressive choreography.

Snoke was undeveloped and used only for Kylo’s motivation and growth, so Johnson continued along that path. Since Kylo was the primary antagonist of the trilogy, Johnson allowed him to take that role more directly while still giving him a character arc.

Johnson subverted expectations because the only film preceding was a retread of the plot of the original Star Wars, but with a bigger Death Star. The one thing Abrams changed from the original Star Wars’ formula was giving the film a cliffhanger ending. This cliffhanger got in the way of two of the three main Characters having an arc. Kylo’s choice to kill Han and commit to the Dark Side completes his arc and quest in the film. Rey is still searching for belonging, and Finn is knocked out before he can take any personal action in the plot. Poe wasn’t meant to be a protagonist, and originally was set to die in the TIE crash. Because of this, Poe had no arc. TLJ had to give all of these characters arcs to compensate, and retreading past films or giving the obvious answers to shallow questions wouldn’t achieve that.

Thus, every major issue people have with The Last Jedi can be traced to choices made with The Force Awakens.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I just don’t see what good could come from him being in exile without disillusionment. What, was he just sitting there waiting for someone to come get him? And as soon as they did he’d go “Okay, well since you found me, I’ve totally changed my mind and decide to take on the whole First Order with a laser sword”?

Exactly. Everything people hated in TLJ can be traced to Abrams’ choices (or lack of depth) in TFA.

thebluefrog said:

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

There’s one benefit to give Lucas’ writing over Rian or JJ: Lucas listened to the actors and altered the character arcs and stories based on their feedback. There’s countless interviews from the OT where Ford or Hamill said Lucas was able to be convinced that their characters wouldn’t do X or say Y.

So hermit Luke indeed was a Lucas idea, but definitely would not have been executed as Rian did, especially given how Hamill was unhappy with the way the character was written. Even the cliche Obi-Wan “old master gives Excalibur and then dies” would’ve been a better way to end Luke than the contradicting yes/no/maybe mess from JJ and Rian.

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

This is famously untrue. Lucas still finds Empire Strikes Back to be his least favourite film because of this. He hates “I know” and forced production on Return of the Jedi to be much more centred in California so he could oversee production more easily.

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

Well, yeah… anything that isn’t a member berry will of course piss a large group of people off.

OutboundFlight said:

No offense but this feels like the most un-Leia thing to do. I could maybe see it from Luke, only if Snoke tricks him into a force vision of the only solution being a common enemy or something, and Luke is desperate to not fall into the same mistake as the old Jedi. But Leia? She has always been the moral center.

She’s also been the most extremist. Without seeing what had happened over the 30 years between films, it’s possible she thought the ends justified the means. Take Mark Hamill’s example of the Hippies of old growing up to be the conservative Boomers of now. 30 years is a long time.

I’m curious, how would this be able to be developed? The crawl to Force Awakens, and maybe adjusting her conversation with Han about Kylo? She says “it’s my fault” during that conversation…

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

Han Solo, famously nice to 3PO.

Yeah, I don’t think anyone in the saga likes Threepio. Might be best to just cut that line completely.

I personally cut all of that. There’s no reason for him to stand and give a self-eulogy. His memory has been deleted a ton of times, and even this time is used for comic relief. pretending it’s suddenly a dramatic moment is jarring.

The divide is largely between those who wanted or didn’t want a subversive film… that’s kinda opposite desires.

DominicCobb said:

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

JakeRyan17 said:

idir_hh said:

In fairness, Michael Arnt had no script almost one year into his hiring. Ideally they would have given him more time to crack the story but with the short schedule they were given I don’t really blame them for getting rid of him. It’s just that JJ should have been kept far away from the script.

*no completed and approved script.

It’s not like he was twiddling his thumbs. He was doing what Abrams wouldn’t: putting thought into the script.

He was working with Abrams.

He was fired when Abrams was hired and said he wanted to do the script himself, he brought in Kasdan, and they kept the protagonist being a girl and Luke being at an ancient Jedi Temple. The plot and story was thrown out to make Luke a maguffin and to mimic A New Hope.

This is all just factually untrue. Arndt worked with Abrams and even with Kasdan on the script. The plot and story was not thrown out at all, it naturally evolved from what Arndt was writing. And it was Arndt who decided Luke shouldn’t be in the film, because he thought it took the focus off the protagonist.

He wasn’t the one that said Luke should be a plot object. That was Abrams. Arndt’s story and plot were stripped, the broad strokes of characters and ideas were kept. Abrams is the one who decided to just plagiarise another film, passing it off as something new.

And that wasn’t necessary. No one needed another A New Hope. We have the old one, on VHS, DVD, and evening BD by the time TFA came out. What we needed is what was promised: “a new Star Wars that was crafted and looks like the old ones.”

DominicCobb said:

JakeRyan17 said:

idir_hh said:

In fairness, Michael Arnt had no script almost one year into his hiring. Ideally they would have given him more time to crack the story but with the short schedule they were given I don’t really blame them for getting rid of him. It’s just that JJ should have been kept far away from the script.

*no completed and approved script.

It’s not like he was twiddling his thumbs. He was doing what Abrams wouldn’t: putting thought into the script.

He was working with Abrams.

He was fired when Abrams was hired and said he wanted to do the script himself, he brought in Kasdan, and they kept the protagonist being a girl and Luke being at an ancient Jedi Temple. The plot and story was thrown out to make Luke a maguffin and to mimic A New Hope.

DominicCobb said:

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

Just saying “hur hur JJ dumb no thought happened here” is ridiculous. That’s not how movies are made. I think TROS is a disaster of epic proportions, but just saying something like “wow they really put no thought into it” is a really uninformed way to criticize it. It’s easy to see the thought process that goes into poor creative decisions if you’re willing to look closely.

No thought into story or character arcs. He put lots of thought into visuals. No one said he did nothing, but he fired Oscar-winning screenwriters and then failed to actually write more than nostalgia. That’s not putting thought into the story. His time and energy went elsewhere.

He traded ONE Oscar winning screenwriter for Lawrence fuckin Kasdan, don’t think anyone should be too angry about that. Especially when he hired an Oscar winning screenwriter for TROS that completely tanked the whole film. I don’t really care to argue with the rest of your post because I think it’s pretty shallow analysis. And, regardless, this is the wrong thread for it.

Kasdan is great, so is Terrio. You can see both of their influence under the mandated dumbing down with nostalgia.

idir_hh said:

In fairness, Michael Arnt had no script almost one year into his hiring. Ideally they would have given him more time to crack the story but with the short schedule they were given I don’t really blame them for getting rid of him. It’s just that JJ should have been kept far away from the script.

*no completed and approved script.

It’s not like he was twiddling his thumbs. He was doing what Abrams wouldn’t: putting thought into the script.

DominicCobb said:

Just saying “hur hur JJ dumb no thought happened here” is ridiculous. That’s not how movies are made. I think TROS is a disaster of epic proportions, but just saying something like “wow they really put no thought into it” is a really uninformed way to criticize it. It’s easy to see the thought process that goes into poor creative decisions if you’re willing to look closely.

No thought into story or character arcs. He put lots of thought into visuals. No one said he did nothing, but he fired Oscar-winning screenwriters and then failed to actually write more than nostalgia. That’s not putting thought into the story. His time and energy went elsewhere.

DominicCobb said:

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

When fans give the story more thought than the writers.
Sigh

I mean that’s not really true though.

I’d say it’s true in relation to JJ Abrams’ writing.

Just because the final product ended up in a certain simplified way doesn’t thought wasn’t put into its development.

Crazy coincidence that all of JJ Abrams’ films turn out half baked despite the thought he puts in them and his public quotes that he prefers mysteries with no answers…

That’s the thing though, that’s the style of story he prefers so he cuts it down to that. Doesn’t mean the writers “put less though into it than the fans.” We’re talking about people who spent months working full-time jobs just working on the script. You can complain all you want about the end result but don’t make up stuff about the process.

His process is to purposefully not think things out. He intentionally will create intrigue with mysteries that sit alongside and distract from the story, with zero thought put into the answers to them. That’s less thought.

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

When fans give the story more thought than the writers.
Sigh

I mean that’s not really true though.

I’d say it’s true in relation to JJ Abrams’ writing.

Just because the final product ended up in a certain simplified way doesn’t thought wasn’t put into its development.

Crazy coincidence that all of JJ Abrams’ films turn out half baked despite the thought he puts in them and his public quotes that he prefers mysteries with no answers…

Anakin Starkiller said:

I don’t think Din Djarin and Baby Yoda should be there because they’re spinoff content. The focus should be squarely on bringing together all nine episodes of the Saga. As for the Trade Federation, I just didn’t really feel like they were piloting a ship in that shot.

I don’t think spin-offs are the problem, it’s more that story is still open. Those are specific characters that have likely ages and possibly died. Other Neimoidians would work, so long as they weren’t recognisably prequel characters, and I imagine they should be on a capital ship of some sort rather than the droid control ships from Phantom Menace (more like the ships from the Clone Wars or Revenge of the Sith).

Hal 9000 said:

Lando pulls a Holdo maneuver into the last Destroyer while letting out a gluttonous laugh.

That would help excuse cutting his dreadful scene with Jannah… explain why he’s not in a single other frame of the celebrations.

Darth Sadifous said:

kewlfish said:

Darth Sadifous said:

Don’t get me wrong, I love Lando in this movie. The nostalgia is strong, I just wish there was more going on above Rey and Palpatine than what we got. ANH, RoTJ and RO space battles all had stakes and better pacing. As soon as the armada shows up, there is no more tension. The music just helps to cement the resistances winning is a forgone conclusion. Also as soon as Pryde’s ship is destroyed, it’s like the Sith Eternal and the FO just fall apart like a cheap suit. I don’t know if there is anything that can be done in editing to rectify this, besides removing the wide shot of the armada to reduce the unbelievably factor of that mass of ships assembling at one time. However, it just a concern I still have after seeing all this amazing work stitched together. If anyone could come up with something, I know it would be this super talented community we have here.

The easiest fix that would require hardly any work would be to cut Lando’s scene until after Uncle Palps is dead as well… then it would be more believable that they came at the last second and finished off the fleet… maybe

Yes, that is definitely the easiest fix. However, if Lando doesn’t arrive until after “the senate” dies then we lose Palpatine’s force lighting into the sky which might not be the worse thing since I still scratch my head as it how he didn’t lightening his own forces during this.

Yeah, Lightning into the sky was meant to combat the Lando ex Machina… moving it to later would make that even less earned of an ending. In my edit, I moved a lot of the Resistance stuff later, making Rey be there for longer, which also allows Lando more time to catch up. It’s still a little rough, and convenient, but I feel like it helps it not be that everyone roughly arrives at about the same time.

Darth Sadifous said:

Don’t get me wrong, I love Lando in this movie. The nostalgia is strong, I just wish there was more going on above Rey and Palpatine than what we got. ANH, RoTJ and RO space battles all had stakes and better pacing. As soon as the armada shows up, there is no more tension. The music just helps to cement the resistances winning is a forgone conclusion. Also as soon as Pryde’s ship is destroyed, it’s like the Sith Eternal and the FO just fall apart like a cheap suit. I don’t know if there is anything that can be done in editing to rectify this, besides removing the wide shot of the armada to reduce the unbelievably factor of that mass of ships assembling at one time. However, it just a concern I still have after seeing all this amazing work stitched together. If anyone could come up with something, I know it would be this super talented community we have here.

I wish that the film had, instead of having everyone show up at Exegol, showed a coordinated effort against the First Order across the galaxy. Earn the star destroyers crashing above Bespin and the Forrest Moon of Endor.

I get how once the navigation goes out that all the Star Destroyers crash but the Resistance ships miraculously don’t… but what about the rest of the First Order throughout the galaxy? If everyone went to Exegol, who was fighting everywhere else?