JakeRyan17

Using Luke’s Theme wouldn’t have bothered me, but it was the arrangement that was specific to the crawl. It sounded like yellow letters were about to attack the screen. If that’s a moment that resonates with you, that’s awesome. It just didn’t for me, and the people around me have made similar comments.

In my First pass, I reused a musical moment from later in the battle of Exegol (from when the Falcon rescues Finn and Jannah). I wonder if the music from The Battle of Crait would be a better fit?

I never said majority either, I did reference how multiple other threads are being bogged down with questions of rescoring scenes, with many people commenting and the person who is making the edit has said that they disagree with the changes and like what they have.

I just think instead of speaking about this we should go back to talking about the rescoring ideas. If you think every musical beat in the sequel trilogy is perfect as it, that’s awesome! I wish I fell in the same place as you.

Are there any moments in the score you think could be improved to convey emotion of the scene better?

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

Sure, but the thing is a lot of people criticised the score’s reliance on nostalgia rather than genuine emotion… like using the main theme usually reserved for the crawl when the civilian fleet shows up doesn’t elicit emotion, but rather an eye roll.

Hey, don’t speak for me, that moment was great. Whether or not a musical theme “works” in context is entirely subjective, and certainly not the fault of the composer.

The previous eight films had really impactful scores, and some of the new pieces of music made for TROS are great… but the way they’re used in the film (or rather, the way they’re not used in the film) is the issue.

That I can agree with, although it’s mainly the fault of the editor. There are so many great tracks on the OST for the new movie that were partially unused in the movie, being tracked over with soundbites from the previous movies. That’s what gave the soundtrack it’s overly nostalgic feel.

I didn’t speak for you, I spoke for myself and mentioned how a lot of other people agreed. If you like it, you like it.

It wasn’t the editor, the editor doesn’t move the score around. An editor will work with a temp score, and then the composer will write music for the scenes. The director may have things changed, but it would still go back to the composer (or, more likely, someone on Williams’ team) to be finalised and then mixed at Skysound. Editors don’t deal with final audio.

In any case, I’m not a musician. That’s why I created this thread. Anything that we can’t find a better solution to will stay put in my edit, excepting that moment when the fleet arrives. I figured everyone here who is much more passionate about musical changes would like a space to make their case. No one is trying to bash Williams, and even that video recognises Williams’ talent, but criticised the overall reliance of nostalgia (specifically through music) in TROS.

Sure, but the thing is a lot of people criticised the score’s reliance on nostalgia rather than genuine emotion… like using the main theme usually reserved for the crawl when the civilian fleet shows up doesn’t elicit emotion, but rather an eye roll. The previous eight films had really impactful scores, and some of the new pieces of music made for TROS are great… but the way they’re used in the film (or rather, the way they’re not used in the film) is the issue.

idir_hh said:

JakeRyan17 said:
I’m not familiar with the track on its own, which scenes does it appear in, and where do you think it could fit?

Here you go:
https://youtu.be/oi9kKyPJ_00

That feels super Palpatiney. Should that maybe get used for some Snoke scenes? Did Snoke have his own theme already?

StarkillerAG said:

Although I approve of the creation of this thread, that Sideways video sucks. He misunderstands many key parts of the Star Wars scores, is completely clueless as to how themes are used in movies, and has an attitude like a whiny toddler throughout. His hate for the sequel trilogy is clearly blinding him to Williams’ musical genius in the new movies.

A lot of his points land for me, especially the “lifting X-Wings out of water” theme, haha.

Back on track though, I do feel like the scores have some flaws. For one, I was disappointed that the “Anthem of Evil” theme wasn’t featured much in the movie. It got a whole concert arrangement on the soundtrack, but only appeared three times in the entire movie. So maybe it could be added to some scenes featuring the villains, in order to establish it as a theme for Palpatine and Kylo’s collaboration? I’m not sure how I would implement it, just a thought.

I’m not familiar with the track on its own, which scenes does it appear in, and where do you think it could fit?

Cinefy said:

Attack Of The Clones - added the Prequels Hyperspace theme to a scene, thought I’d just post it in a active Rise Of Skywalker discussion, the other thread is pretty dead.

Concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCt8f2Lgl7c

I really like that

Knight of Kalee said:

Good call on making this thread, Jake!

One thing that makes Star Wars soundtrack stand out is not only the use of leitmotives or musical themes, but also the fact these leitmotives are mostly consistent across the entire saga. Since even the briefest musical figures of John William’s score have a particular meaning, it’s something that for me is really important to consider when rescoring the films.

Thanks! Part of it is I’ve seen different ideas across threads that I’ve liked, but threads got too unwieldy to find once i was ready to tackle music.

This catalogue of themes could be useful.

Thanks, I’ll have to look into this!

The sequel soundtracks are good on their own but they don’t have the same consistency the other two trilogies had. For example, none of the new themes introduced in The Last Jedi made it to Rise of Skywalker. There was also an overreliance in nostalgia, and many themes, like the Force theme ended up being overused.

I believe we should strategically reutilize some of the least-used themes to give them more importance across the trilogy. For example, establish a First Order motif. I mean, even the Separatists had a march of their own… And we also count with the benefit of hindsight to retcon some music connections, like Snoke and Palpatine, or Rey and Palpatine, etc.

Some ideas I have in mind.

• I really believe TROS should deliver on hinting at the main themes of the 9-movie saga, including OT and prequels.

Definitely

• A couple of hours ago I posted this added score for the beginning of the battle of Exegol that reutilizes a Resistance motif frequently used in The Last Jedi: https://youtu.be/nkDUIIyLk4w

I like that. I was thinking of using some of that music, or the other Resistance theme for when the civilian fleet shows up.

• Someone had suggested adding a cue of Rose’s theme to the conversation between Finn and Jannah.

That would be interesting, I kinda feel Jannah is a stand-in for Rose anyway. I also thought about using a Lando theme, if there was music specific to him in the OT or Solo.

• The Rey/Ben triumphant hybrid theme from TROS could be used in TLJ for the moment they touch hands.

Which theme is that? I’m unfamiliar.

RogueLeader said:

Regarding Snoke/Palpatine, we actually get Palpatine’s motif when Snoke is torturing Rey in TLJ. While Williams probably just threw it in there, it at least makes it somewhat of a hint in retrospect. Perhaps Palpatine’s motif could appear in TFA as well in one of Snoke’s scenes.

I was going to add it to his last transmission with Hux, since i changed the line to “Leave the base at once and have Kylo Ren come to me. It is time.” I use this to set up Kylo travelling to Exegol, and using the Emperor’s theme would really help cement that.

Broom Kid said:

It’s like a math problem as much as it is a tone and feeling problem. You only have about 23 seconds or so to find a piece that evokes the right emotion, flows with the scene, and is in the right key. Which means you’re probably gonna have to edit, cut, and stretch other pieces to make that all work.

Here’s a low-rest lo-fi mockup I did.

https://streamable.com/j2hvqr

I really like this! I’ll need to listen to it somewhere other than my phone, I think that’s why it sounds a little tinny…

idir_hh said:

Right off the bat I think we need to give The first Order its own unique theme. There was an unused track for Hux’s speech that would be perfect as a recurring theme in the trilogy. https://youtu.be/R_gSngCB_iM
Not a fan of how they didn’t distinguish Kylo’s theme from the First Order.

I definitely like that idea. I felt similar about TROS kinda sidelining some of the Resistance’s themes in the big battle on Exegol.

Secondly, The Snoke and Palpatine’s connection should be made more apparent musically just as it should be made more apparent narratively. For this I’d recommend Anthem of Evil and Palpatine’s teachings (Plagues’s theme) from ROTS to be played as their main theme.
https://youtu.be/PmgJSpHCGiI

https://youtu.be/EOZKwHSCqzY

I’ve been thinking about using cues of the Emperor’s theme for moments of emphasis when Snoke is speaking, especially in my edits where that reveal is sooner, but this might be a better way to achieve that connection.

I know in the various fan edit threads, there have been a lot of ideas based around re-scoring various scenes.

I’m personally not the best Sith music, editing to music is often more about the pace of editing and general emotional beat for me rather than core themes and such. While the main Star Wars theme playing when the fleet of civilians shows up at the end of The Rise of Skywalker was severely distracting, most other moments failed to bother me the way that story and pacing issues did.

Seeing this YouTube video by Sideways (https://youtu.be/L_8-dWSLDWI), I realised a lot more of the music, specifically in The Rise of Skywalker, was off.

Since so many threads have a lot of passionate ideas about rescoring scenes, I thought it might be good to have one spot to bring those ideas together and discuss them in a centralised place.

So, which scenes do you feel should be rescored, with what, and why?

Broom Kid said:

I think the best possible opening to Rise of Skywalker is to just cut from the opening crawl to Kylo jumping in to frame in front of the nebula. Excise Mustafar entirely. It’s pointless, confusing, ugly, and mostly meaningless. The jump-in is cleaner, and honestly way more in keeping with Star Wars tradition (pan down to ship on the way to a planet - not to that enemy ship parked over it waiting for a bad and incongruous cut to that planets surface before immediately jumping back into space again)

I understand that people think leaving the Mustafar Minute in has some worth, but I figure since everyone else is asking for under-the-wire changes and additions to this edit, I should go on record one last time as saying this one edit will engender so much more goodwill than any post-production attempts to save the Mustafar Minute without any of the actual meat that segment needs to justify itself (the Oracle, Vader’s Castle). Just start already on the way to Exegol. It’s so much more clean and purposeful from a storytelling AND a filmmaking perspective than throwing more globs of clay at the broken, misshapen vase that is this movie’s ungainly opening on Mustafar.

I actually agree. If this sequence is gonna be in this film, it would be great to just start above (below? outside?) Exegol, and get rid of Mustafar and the nebula.

I’m thinking about adding Palpatine’s line “Do it.” from ROTS to TLJ as a telepathic connection to Kylo when he’s about to fire on Leia.

I want to add more of Palpatine’s presence to TLJ, but keep it as only something Kylo knows about or experiences until the broadcast.

Anakin Starkiller said:

As for introducing Palpatine, Jake, I’m gonna be honest, that’s a really dumb idea. His introduction fits perfectly as a cliffhanger ending to TLJ. Leave it at that.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, I was just trying to show how your otherwise unaddressed nitpick was solved with that change. 👍🏻

I don’t expect Hal to change it, but moving it to the other side of the credits between acts 2 & 3 doesn’t fix the issue of a random deus ex machina being added for the villains, for me. It also doesn’t fix your issue with wanting to portray Kylo more clearly not serving Palpatine.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Burbin said:

• Kylo frees himself of the oppression of his Master Snoke, except now he just works for another evil mastermind.

Except the way I see it, not really. Palpatine never formally takes him on as an apprentice. It’s more of an equal alliance of two people who wanna kill each other and know it. I think we should lean to this more by removing the implication that Kylo is following the Emperor’s orders by finding Rey. By leaving out Palpatine telling Kylo to bring Rey to him, maybe we could imply that Kylo is seeking her out out of his own free will so she can help him take out the Emperor.

That’s part of why I introduced Palpatine so much earlier, it recontextualises his desire for Rey to join him in TLJ. It also makes us question where Kylo is, mentally, throughout TROS… making his return to Ben more fleshed out.

Anakin Starkiller said:

RogueLeader said:

Alternatively, I would like to see if you could have Palpatine in TROS, “My boy, I trained Snoke.”

The idea that Snoke was just another apprentice of Palpatine, like Maul, Dooku or Vader before him would make the Snoke-Palpatine connection a lot simpler than Palpatine saying he made him. Him making Snoke still leaves us with a lot of unanswered questions. Who is Snoke a clone of? Why did he have multiple clones of him? Why did Palpatine puppeteer him in particular? Etc, etc. Did Snoke know he was being controlled by Palpatine, or did Palpatine control him completely?

I also think Snoke having his own agency keeps Kylo killing him feel like a big accomplishment rather than just another test by Palpatine.

That’s exactly what I’ve been wanting to do. Is there any instance of Palpatine saying “trained” that would work here?

I think you’d have to make a frankenbite. He says “train” and “training” a bunch in the other trilogies… but I don’t think he ever uses past tense.

I’ve separated the dialogue pretty well, but haven’t indexed it or anything. If you tell me where to grab I can possibly send you the line.

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.

If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.

I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.

I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.

That would be the ideal, yes, but I don’t think it’s achievable through editing alone. The writers for the trilogy should have either gone full-on with the “They Saved Palpatine’s Brain” plot, or just stuck with Kylo and the First Order. It’s a problem with the writing, that editing can’t fix. I’m just searching for a way to slightly rectify the problem, while still feeling as natural as possible.

I realise that, I’m explaining why this felt more natural to me.

I know, and I’m explaining why I feel it isn’t achievable by trying to contrive it in editing. It just doesn’t feel seamless in my opinion.

Watching the full thing in context, I feel like it’s closer.

I’m ignoring information from outside of the films, obviously, such as how much time passes between films, etc. So, it’s not a year of no one mentioning Palpatine, the next movie starts with the heroes trying to confirm the message and the First Order being restructured.

Hux’s annoyance and being specifically anti-Kylo makes more sense with Kylo playing both (evil) sides since he didn’t know about Palpatine and viewed the First Order soldiers as his in The Last Jedi. To me it smoothed over a lot of those rough edges.

My cuts aren’t as drastically restructured though, and I haven’t seen Hal’s cuts to see how they compare.

Again, if you had ideas how to make them less contrived, which kinda feels like an aggressive word to keep flinging at me in a “radical” redux thread, I’m all ears.

Just watch Hal’s edits to see what I mean. They’ve added quite a few subtle hints at the true forces behind the First Order, without altering the plot too much. If you want more obvious teasing of Palpatine’s return, watch Poppasketti’s TLJ edit as well. He added Palpatine teases to the entire movie, culminating in Palpatine telling Kylo to find him. Those edits tease Palpatine’s return pretty much perfectly in my opinion, and you should really check them out.

I guess, to me, teasing only doesn’t fix the issue. I added the cultists to Rey’s vision and other subtle things too, but only doing small and subtle things doesn’t fix the abrupt about-face between TLJ and TROS.

If I added Palpatine saying something like “Tell no one of this” from the prequels to the scene on Exegol, would that help?

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.

If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.

I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.

I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.

That would be the ideal, yes, but I don’t think it’s achievable through editing alone. The writers for the trilogy should have either gone full-on with the “They Saved Palpatine’s Brain” plot, or just stuck with Kylo and the First Order. It’s a problem with the writing, that editing can’t fix. I’m just searching for a way to slightly rectify the problem, while still feeling as natural as possible.

I realise that, I’m explaining why this felt more natural to me.

I know, and I’m explaining why I feel it isn’t achievable by trying to contrive it in editing. It just doesn’t feel seamless in my opinion.

Watching the full thing in context, I feel like it’s closer.

I’m ignoring information from outside of the films, obviously, such as how much time passes between films, etc. So, it’s not a year of no one mentioning Palpatine, the next movie starts with the heroes trying to confirm the message and the First Order being restructured.

Hux’s annoyance and being specifically anti-Kylo makes more sense with Kylo playing both (evil) sides since he didn’t know about Palpatine and viewed the First Order soldiers as his in The Last Jedi. To me it smoothed over a lot of those rough edges.

My cuts aren’t as drastically restructured though, and I haven’t seen Hal’s cuts to see how they compare.

Again, if you had ideas how to make them less contrived, which kinda feels like an aggressive word to keep flinging at me in a “radical” redux thread, I’m all ears.

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.

If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.

I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.

I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.

That would be the ideal, yes, but I don’t think it’s achievable through editing alone. The writers for the trilogy should have either gone full-on with the “They Saved Palpatine’s Brain” plot, or just stuck with Kylo and the First Order. It’s a problem with the writing, that editing can’t fix. I’m just searching for a way to slightly rectify the problem, while still feeling as natural as possible.

I realise that, I’m explaining why this felt more natural to me.

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.

If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.

I guess you could contrive a justification, but it still feels weird to me. I still think that Hal’s approach, coupled with adding Palpatine’s introduction to the end of TLJ, is the option that makes the most narrative sense.

I guess leaving it as late and as subtle doesn’t fix the problem for me. In narrative story structure, the threat and conflict is introduced at the end of the first act. Leaving any of that primary conflict and threat out of The Force Awakens keeps the abrupt about-face change up in the third film, or even at the end of the second.

RogueLeader said:

Alternatively, I would like to see if you could have Palpatine in TROS, “My boy, I trained Snoke.”

The idea that Snoke was just another apprentice of Palpatine, like Maul, Dooku or Vader before him would make the Snoke-Palpatine connection a lot simpler than Palpatine saying he made him. Him making Snoke still leaves us with a lot of unanswered questions. Who is Snoke a clone of? Why did he have multiple clones of him? Why did Palpatine puppeteer him in particular? Etc, etc. Did Snoke know he was being controlled by Palpatine, or did Palpatine control him completely?

I also think Snoke having his own agency keeps Kylo killing him feel like a big accomplishment rather than just another test by Palpatine.

I like the idea of changing that line.

I guess to me, I just assumed Snoke was completely controlled by Palpatine, like a suit; Snoke doesn’t exist as an autonomous person.

To me, Kylo killing Snoke is still his own act of rebellion rather than a test, as once he’s no longer being watched by his master he tries to recruit an ally.

Then the message acts as Palpatine showing Kylo he’s still in control, intimidating Kylo as much as the Resistance. Basically, Crait has both of his masters return to show that Kylo has not gained the independence he craves.

I guess with it only being Kylo, it didn’t bother me that no one else talks about Palpatine during the bulk of TLJ. To me, the First Order doesn’t know until the broadcast. There aren’t really any other lines of dialogue except trying to escape and then Rey & Leia on the Falcon at the very end. Then TROS starts with finding the message, and everyone on Ajan Kloss asking if the Emperor could really be back.

If you can think of lines from TROS that could be added to the films earlier, I have clean audio for it to work with. It just doesn’t feel necessary to me.

idir_hh said:

https://youtu.be/6Lv2Fh64Cfo
How to fix Snoke in the ST| by AT-AT Chat

I just watched that too. We don’t have the dialogue or close up shots necessary to make his changes.

I tried to achieve similar things by adjusting Snoke’s line in TFA, moving Kylo’s trip to Exegol from TROS to TFA, removing the line about killing Snoke, adding Palpatine’s message from Fortnite to TLJ between the Resistance not being able to contact allies and Snoke’s arrival, and having Palpatine telepathically communicate that Kylo is weak like his parents when he fails to stop Rey and the Resistance’s escape from Crait.

Snoke & Hux:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x6D30tDtGy9CvefkYC6iPZ0xvgZericq/view?usp=sharing

Kylo to Exegol in TFA:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rARUzDyLV0hM6eQX4m5U7MkG7AEWxRmU/view?usp=sharing

Palpatine’s message:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tUe4Nz4dKptm5UzcBu2QhX9N9FuaISoa/view?usp=sharing

Palpatine & Kylo on Crait:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s-thAiSISTEYqjn0oiyRuoWgdiBScyZ-/view?usp=sharing

StarkillerAG said:

jarbear said:

I appreciate the motivation of adding music cues, but I do agree with Hal, in that music is pretty much associated with Jar Jar and mesa got some bad vibes from dat.

Although I can appreciate music cues, but it shouldn’t be used “for the sake of filling in gaps.”

Limiting/not having music cues/notes/sounds/etc. it just as important as using them. It’s a balancing act.

Yeah, just look at Empire Strikes Back for an example of that. Almost the entire movie was scored by John Williams originally, but quite a bit of the music was removed in post, just because the scenes sounded better with no music.

Take the duel between Luke and Vader, for example. Here’s the scene with the original music score:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq1Y7HXivCQ
And here’s the scene as it is in the movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ_voJl29eE

Although the music is good on its own, it doesn’t fit the tone of the scene, and it’s just more tense with no music.

I’ve never seen that before. I kinda love the music being over the scene (even though the overall film needs that scene to not have music). It changes the tone in a fascinating way.