JadedSkywalker

Do we get an actual functioning Jedi Order and Democracy this time. Or do they rinse and repeat rebellion Vs Empire again, and Jedi Vs Sith again? create another superweapon. Just to have conflict.

Is Rey the new Jake Skywalker, a mere cameo to be replaced by these younger and more important to Disney characters.

Does she keep the same failed teachings that lead Luke to recycle the prequel Jedi failures.

Rise of Palpatine says she becomes a Jedi and doubles down and changes nothing, doesn’t find a third path between the dark side and the light, or the Sith and the Jedi. She takes over Luke’s story purpose. What’s to stop what Luke talked about in episode 8 to happen again?

If rebuilding the order is what created a new Sith and Vader, why didn’t Luke leave the order go back to Tatooine and live as Luke Lars. Raise a family get married. Let the Jedi rot. Be a simple moisture farmer. He gives decades of his life for what? because his father was Vader. How much does he have to give and live the life of a celibate monk, how much is enough? Well he’s dead.

I kept hoping the next one would be better. I thought clearly Lucas is rusty and II and III will clearly be better. And like many other people went to see them for the opening week and the spectacle of the lightsaber fights, what is ILM going to do this time. John Williams score. Hayden Christensen as Anakin never quite landed with me. I think his being an unlikable protagonist is a major problem for these movies. With the OT you have Luke.

The unnatural dialogue, the space politics. The Midichlorians. The space politics is what these movies are about why complain about them. Well, I liked the original for being a swashbuckling adventure movie. It’s kind of why I initially liked the force awakens it was in the that style of being. But well later I realized this is just a remake of Star Wars.

Certain aspects of the prequel work I like the idea of the Faustian bargain, the Macbeth if you will. Anakin’s descent into madness trying to cheat the oracle as it were.

The audience remains omniscient while the Jedi walk into a trap and a killing box. Because the plot requires it and they are dumb. So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

You know I thought of Tolkien when thinking of Anakin trying to change Padmes fate he had in a vision of the future. Turin Turambar. Master of Fate by Fate Mastered.

Man that makes Picard season 3 the last time we’ll ever see him as Picard. Now Legacy can’t happen. Well, it’s a somber reminder that life isn’t infinite. its precious and finite in its space of time allotted.

Doomsday will be the last time we see him as Charles professor X, I suppose.

Detective Pikachu isn’t the best movie. But it’s fun. It’s okay.

I have the DVD.

Rest in Peace Walter. Now only Bill and George are left. Such a sad time to be a Star Trek original series fan.

It’s a bitter pill. Commander Shepard survived the Reapers but couldn’t survive an EA buyout.

Rest in peace Bioware. Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

Mass Effect is my favorite game of all time that isn’t Kotor. This is a gut punch. Especially to gutting 400 jobs.

No I get that midichlorians isn’t the force but it was negatively received that way. Received about as well as the aliens in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. and Disney bringing them back for somehow Palpatine returned. Plus they weren’t a part of the 1970s creation of Star Wars. made up. Its sort of like the Kyber crystal which was jettisoned, which was in earlier drafts of Star Wars. a way to quantify and control the force. Like Tolkien one ring of doom. the ring of power.

This came back for Splinter of the Minds eye but mostly forgotten. except for Disney’s dumb decision to make Kyber Crystals sentient. And responsible not just not for the lightsabers they are mood rings, and the death star superlaser.

Anyway you should talk about the sequels and get back on topic.

Lucas admitted no one liked Jar Jar and midis and pulled back on them in the prequel sequels. But yet, learn to save Padme with midichclorians the plot of episode III. The entire plot of Darth Plageuis the wise and Anakin’s own conception by the force or the Sith depending on what you think happened.

They try to do a bit of this with Palpatine playing around with cloning leading to Rey’s birth from his non force clone and some wife of his clone. She, Rey is just born to house his evil Spirit according to the dark side, but the force meant for the balance to be her and Ben Solo in the light? the so called dyad.

Honestly Disney didn’t understand what Lucas meant by balance. It’s not equal light and equal darkness. Darkness rises and light to meet it. I sort of blame the stupidity of things like Mortis for muddying the waters. Literal yin and yang quantifiers for the force. and that isn’t enough badness, Filoni created time travel to save Ahsoka. But Luke stays dead. Go figure. Well I won’t get into all of Filoni’s bad Clone Wars false lore. redone backstories for characters. and nonsense. from the sith and the nightsisters, to nearly all prequel characters. mandalorians. Maul’s survival etc a made up student for Anakin and a made up brother and mother for darth maul. Morriban instead of Korriban, the Mandos as space hippies. Boba Fett and Jango not Mandalorian.

Restore the Balance as I once did Rey intones Hayden Skywalker. Or rather Hayden Christensen Anakin in the Rise of Skywalker. a disembodied voice. I still think he wasn’t in episode 8 because Rian wanted to use Shaw and not Hayden. if you could have Lukes father from the old movies. So we got Yoda instead.

The worst thing Filoni did in the Disney era he created Disney Thrawn in his Rebels.

No I mean I get the criticism of George Lucas is a little unfair at times. JRR Tolkien himself retconned and niggled on the Silmarillion to such an extent his son had to invent a finished final text from various states of drafts.

The one ring started out as a simple birthday present of Gollum Bilbo stole.

But not quite Midichlorians is it.

The Jake Skywalker stuff I agree on. Only kind of. Because Luke becomes a Jedi and then poof, nothing.

It’s sort of why aspects of the novelization are stronger and others better in the movie. Outside books like the Shadow pf the Sith contextualize what Luke was up to with Lando. He didn’t abandon the galaxy. He saved Rey. He was looking for Exegol. He didn’t just retreat to a world to drink green elephant milk and whine about laser swords.

If so, why isn’t a theatrical phantom menace available on anything other than VHS, VCD, and Laserdisc. Its the same as Thx 1138 and American Graffiti.

I don’t think Lucas believes in perfection even young Indiana jones got reedited for vhs/ DVD.

the original 1977 Star Wars is quite against the grain of what Lucasfilm usually does. Disney too, Han shooting and blowing away Greedo and not shooting second from a company notorious for censorship.

George is a tinkerer. If he hadn’t sold Lucasfilm we’d have a 3d version of the Ot. We’d have a 5th special edition.

Avimo said:

I think KK is making that up. Bob Iger said that Lucas gave extensive and detailed outlines, and KK was one of the people to agree to discard them.

well if you use Lucas story you don’t get JJ Abrams who wanted nothing to do with the prequel, and wanted something like the original film. The public sentiment at the time was against Lucas and the prequels and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. So what Disney did with the new movies didn’t happen in a vacuum. They were an overcorrection to something, reacting to it.

The new Star Wars and Indiana Jones were made to do the opposite and to recapture the old spirit and flavor. Though they didn’t succeed beyond the force awakens. but I do understand it. recapturing the real swashbuckling flair of the original, the fun. it was completely absent in the prequel. that verve and energy between Mark, Carrie and Harrison. Its not there with Ewan, Natalie and Hayden.

Its barely there between Finn and Rey. Saving Poe meeting her to the last one for the playful banter. A mistake I think. as was erasing Rose. But I like John Boyega. Daisy Ridley, And Oscar Isaac. And Kelly Marie Tran.

I even like Zorri bliss much more than Captain Phasma or whatever her name is.

Connor MacLeod said:

Is it as good as some of the EU material? NO WAY. But it has its moments and I can enjoy them as “what if” stories.

That point is eminently a fair one. I often see the Disney movies as Infinities as it were.

And I also like Luke’s wider view of the force as more than the dichotomy of the Jedi and the Sith. and his nonviolence. Though it could have been explained better. Had better exposition. Though the OT had very little and was In medias res. literally all we need to know about Star Wars 1977 is in its opening crawl and then we dive into the action.

Like those old Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials.

And technically the Last Jedi is a very well made film.

But yeah the wanting Luke to have an epic throwdown lightsaber duel with a Sith. or to destroy a AT-AT with a closed fist or crash a star destroyer is from the EU and video games.

The ones where he is like Goku level and fights the Vong.

The point about the Leia as the sister is pointed, and still today I can’t see it. The EU worked with it. But it was dumb in the Star Wars trilogy and completely unearned and nonsense.

Lucas making it all up all on the fly Indiana Jones style is the biggest truth of all.

Artoo being the recorder of the story not the Whills is sort of neat but Lucas made that up. Creating Threepio? a machine man created a robot and losing his own humanity. I doubt Lucas thought that deeply. He is a boy in the past but a machine man later. Anakin.

Vader being born on a table as the twins are born and Padme dies. Nice visual and mythic symbolism but creates a plot hole with Return of the Jedi.

Every change and retcon make Kenobi a worse dissembler and liar.

as for the sequel I like the idea of Rey as the scavenger and Finn as the rogue stormtrooper but they do nothing with them. There isn’t anything wrong with Rey desiring a calling, or a family per se.

My problem is each film was created as a standalone or at best JJ did a duology. There is no cohesion.

Because his sequel was going to be a continuation of them. He said people were going to hate them. The whole doubling down on midichlorians and whills. Darth Maul etc. Talon in the wrong timeline. Connected to Filoni Clone Wars. Sounds like as much as a mess as the Disney timeline, elevating the cartoons to G canon status. Which was a profound mistake.

Remaining t canon was the right move. ahsoka in live action is absurd. She isn’t even in the prequel films.

And Luke would have been some weird, failed prequel Jedi like in Disney. That’s still Jake Skywalker. But we don’t know what the outcome would have been, we’ve seen the Disney version. The Last Jedi was still better than the somehow Palpatine returned thing.

I’d rather have someone continue the pre 1999 lore. Jedi can marry etc. Have families. No prequelisms. But that isn’t at all realistic.

What Last Jedi did right IMHO. was the mythic image of Luke astral projecting himself and confronting the first order without falling to the dark side. Without violent intervention. Its not exactly throwing away his lightsaber on the death star 2, making A Jedi’s example to Anakin. Causing Anakin to regenerate as a Jedi. I won’t fight you. I won’t kill you. I’d rather die, father. And you’ve failed your highness defiance of the Emperor.

The blueprint for prequels and the sequels was right there, the Original Unaltered trilogy. Maybe fixing up some of the more terrible retcons and plotholes of the OT in the prequel. instead of creating new ones would have been the way to go. But it’s not my story. One cohesive 9 film Saga epic. We don’t have that. We don’t really have a 6 film one without massive amounts of handwaving and headcanon. or read some books, watch some cartoons. and play some video games and comics. Here’s the clone wars. There’s two versions of how they happened the old canon and the Filoni one, and the pre prequel lore.

Theres the old timeline lore of Luke Skywalker being a grandmaster of a Jedi Order that lasts over a 100 years. post ROTJ. There is the pre prequel lore of Yoda not having a lightsaber and the Emperor not being a Darth or having one.

There is the idea Kenobi had a master in Yoda. Qui Gon didn’t exist, nor Jar Jar or Midichlorians. I have like the other Star Wars in my head. A perfected one that isn’t in existence. Where the prequels happened but they were somewhere between the old EU lore, George’s original concepts and Timothy Zahns trilogy. I almost wish I had never read EU. It sort of polluted cinematic Star Wars for me. As it was better than the follow on prequels. Better than 70% of Disney.

George said there were treatments. The Star Wars Archives the prequels said treatments. KK’s statement just leaves me confused. Because they can’t be saying the same thing.

Or is she parsing words. That so called couple of paragraphs was used by Michael Arndt to outline a George episode 7?

George shows up to the story meeting and realizes they weren’t using his story. It’s talked about in Iger’s book.

It’s all so confusing. I wish we had that making of book from Rinzler and Vaz.

KK is back saying no story treatments George told her it was all up there in her head. Comedy. Pure comedy. Two paragraphs she says. No treatment.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/kathleen-kennedy-on-leaving-lucasfilm-1236717903/

That means free reign to do whatever Disney wanted. George can’t have his cake and it too.

It’s like he removed himself of the responsibility and the fans but wants the love, adulation and accolades. Disney can get the criticism.

Look at the malarkey about the prequel being a lost or misunderstood masterpiece. That happened since Disney bought Lucasfilm, born out of fan discontent.

Indeed, they were Strange. A puppet episode and some big swings.

Now a movie that is dark in a new timeline but not the JJ Timeline. with no recognizable ships or characters.

Well, let’s see the end of Kurtzman’s tenure. Star Trek Academy season 2 and Strange New Worlds season 5.

And is Star Trek dead again like in 2005. I heard they tore down the Doctor Who tardis set. Not just the Star Trek sets. So that might be two things that are dead.

Right SW and TESB are like pure lightning in a bottle. George is to be commended for that.

The Prequel not coming close. Hmm. and ROTJ being seeing as a lesser film than TESB. Well you can’t be on top forever. Though peaking early and he really did look at his career. Having Steven direct Raiders as well. By the time of the prequel he was seen as almost a god and couldn’t do anything wrong could he? Why would people have to tell him that’s a bad idea George or try this instead. When you are on the top of the mountain forever. You live in the status of pure adulation.

and the Disney films. and Disney years. Has only made people more fond of Lucas. Its given new life and appreciation for the prequels. I know it is truly farcical but its true.

People don’t think well if George held onto Star Wars the originals are never getting restored or released again. Or Andor and Rogue One or whatever people liked from this era would be wiped.

They just don’t like the Disney Trilogy.

And the prequels. Well I do hope for those who like them they do get a quality release someday, like a theatrical Episode I for instance.

My favorite was the 2004 being deliberate creative decisions. Why does it have black level crush and magenta push and swapped surround channels. Well of course we intended that. Sure, and then they kept putting those same unfixed special edition discs out over and over again. fans fixed the audio using the 1997 laserdisc ac3.

Like the awful gout 2006 discs, fans added more soundtrack options. and tried their best to make it display on an anamorphic tv. but no resolution is gained.

even the blu-ray fan upscale was okay at best. the audio being the standout from team blu.

If not for Harmy’s recreation and team negative one, I think we’d still be relying on laserdiscs or dvd upscales.

an official release was never something to be hoped for. especially the originals. I mean they even messed up the Maclunky 4k.

it still has dnr, it still has magenta push. and depending on who you ask, either the ATMOS sound is good or it is not.

I loved the entire trilogy of Super Star Wars. I no longer have an SNES. i think it was cool how they used the soundtrack using the limitations of the game. the cutscenes being pictures. sometimes rather crude animation or camera panning for effect.

the apology accepted Captain Needa scene I laughed at that in the theater. nobody else thought it was funny.

twoyennan said:

JadedSkywalker said:

the disney trilogy revisit is the hardest. force awakens is a slog to get through. i don’t think i will watch those unless my niece and nephew want to see them.

I have a fair amount of affection for the PT myself, but overall, my impression of it is quite similar to yours. On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed TFA.

I realize this thread is about the PT, so I hope you don’t mind me asking, but what was it about TFA that didn’t work for you? I’m currently working on a rewrite of the ST, and I’m very interested in hearing how someone who has a similar view of the PT sees TFA. If you’ve already discussed this in another thread, I’d appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.

the being a remake of Star Wars 1977. Luke being a worthless mystery box/ mcguffin. The Marvel level humor. The entire thing. Not the being like the originals or retro. I dug that entirely, and saw the film 3 times in the theater. They did some things right don’t get me wrong. Avoiding midichlorians and Darth Maul as the villain is some brilliant strategy right there. George seemed to want to double down on the prequels had he made his sequels. which is very relevant to the prequels. Since all of Star Wars after 1999 became infected by them. Good or bad.

I like Star Wars from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker over the Saga of Darth Vader. That shipped sailed in like 1982 or something though didn’t it. Sometimes I wonder if the Special Edition and if the prequel hadn’t been made. and the originals left alone. Disney Star Wars didn’t exist. would Star Wars be more special.

But then of course the existence of new films and the promise of them propelled the EU which I loved for some decades. Would losing that be worth it for the prequel to not exist?

I guess the best thing is to take what you like from each era of Star Wars. And keep the things you like from them. Discard what you don’t. Like that Rise of Palpatine movie for me that doesn’t’ exist. Which gets back to keeping only headcanon or liking what you like.

Since there is 1-6 which Lucas Saga of Darth Vader. the Original Saga of IV, V and VI unaltered trilogy. The Palpatine Saga of 1-9. Which is valid? Only one of them can be canon. George’s probably.

I wish Lucas wrote a general outline. hewed to his 1980s prequel concepts, and hired other writers and directors to make the prequels. that someone challenged the amount of cgi and bluescreen/greenscreen sets. not shooting on film. that he had people who told him when an idea was bad or didn’t fit the lore or OT canon.

When he says the original was 25% of the movie he wanted to make and you know the prequel is far closer to 100%, you start to wonder was star wars accidentally good despite Lucas, the forces of collaboration and compromise and other brilliant talents. I think he changed is what happened between 1982 and 1999. he wanted the prequel to be this weird political thing with jedi as ascetic monks. and in the backdrop how a republic falls to fascism, this part was the only sort of decent aspect. the jedi being unbelievably stupid and blind. Anakin’s lack of being a character fully developed. not so much.

okay he is some gifted kid living with some weird standoffish monks. so he is awkward. but he doesn’t really do much. the myth or the archetype of Vader is broad strokes. missing exposition. he fears loss, he has anger issues. he is greedy. the end.

His toxic attachment to a woman is what causes his fall. Lucas doesn’t even let us think otherwise. The Jedi aren’t flawed at all in this. Anakin was wrong to get married. Anakin was wrong to love and grow attached. Romantic love and attachment is the path to Vader.

Little Jedi’s after all they come from the stork. Its a bad thing that Luke and Leia were conceived. Anakin betrayed his oath. He should just have left the order. If they let him.

I think there was partial truth in Palpatine’s lies they did want to control Anakin, and were afraid of his growing power. There was a sort of spellbound idolatry of his being the chosen one. SO they let him get away with a lot of things. Kenobi knew about his marriage to Padme and kept it secret. Did Yoda know?

in any case once i finish watching the prequel 35mm scans i think i’m done watching them forever. i don’t think in a decade. i’ll be so old, I’ll be wanting to watch them. i watched the official 4k uhd discs.

its going to be, finish the 1997 special edition trilogy edits watch on laserdisc, the 35mm and then solely watch the unaltered OT. retire maclunky. one watch is enough.

the disney trilogy revisit is the hardest. force awakens is a slog to get through. i don’t think i will watch those unless my niece and nephew want to see them.

I think Anakin has rocks in his head for believing Sidious lie about saving Padme with Midichlorians. the speech is great and its mysterious and Ian as an actor plays it up.

Anakin as a character couldn’t be written worse. for the downfall and redemption you have to have a good man who is corrupted, a slow seduction. other than Padme insisting he is of pure heart and goodness, still good in him. you don’t see it in the movies.

There is no arc in the prequel other than sweet slave boy, jump ahead sullen jerk, then kill younglings.

it would depend on the story, the characters. though to be sure I have no faith whatsoever in Kinberg as a writer or director. or producer.

Jon Watts directing is different obviously. And is Oscar Isaac, Daisy Ridley or John Boyega back? much would have to fall into place. Like can they get Tony Daniels to reprise C-3PO. I think he is done?

I also don’t see Johnny signing on to do a whole trilogy as composer at his age.

For it to be Star Wars it has to have some Star Wars in it. If it doesn’t have the Droids or Chewie or the Millennium falcon etc. etc.

Luke Skywalker’s ghost. Maybe Adam Driver as Ben’s ghost. or even the ghost of Anakin played by Hayden.

Of course they’ll be another new Sith and another super weapon because we can’t not have conflict.

I think they are leveraging nostalgia for the prequels and the Filoni Clone Wars cartoon.

I not sure I want similar done for the OT. I’m over the deepfakes. I would probably give recast actors a watch, like the Alden Solo movie. But they are so set in their ways of wanting these cgi de-aging and deepfakes.

And Star Wars is stuck in the nostalgia and not moving forward. Is there somewhere to move foreward to in terms of story, post Rise of Skywalker?

Since the OT era is clearly over. Actors have aged out, others have died. The Gen X fans grip on the franchise isn’t forever.

the fans should have no say because they don’t know how to make movies, seriously. Those complaining and entitled fans. the corporations shouldn’t listen to them. he is talking about Disney and the originals. he isn’t happy. But Han won’t be shooting second.

That is my take away from his meandering.

“If you listen to the people who are unhappy, it’s not going to turn out well… because they’re not people who know how to make movies” George Lucas.