Hey it's me.

generalfrevious said:

The obvious answer is that the script was being written as the movie went along. 

If true, then no wonder it culminated in being a mess. I mean, who in their right mind makes the script up as they go along? Surely if your doing a trilogy the meat and bones of the production (story, script) are meticulously fleshed out before the director says 'Action' for the 1st time? You need to get those fundamental requirements set in stone before anything else. Not just wing it. How amateurish is that? And I know the famous, 'I love you' 'I know' scene was ad-libbed but that's because Ford had the balls to say 'hang on,' and Kerschner let him run with it because they both knew the original response 'I love you too' didnt fit with Solos character. 

Your right (in a way) Star Wars was a film that could've stood on its own. Good guys win, job done. People loved it. Now Empire came along and added so much gravity to the story, the characters, the whole ethos that was touched upon in the 1st film. The reason it is so lauded is because not only is it a great fantasy/adventure film, it is character driven story which set the tone for the way these type of films SHOULD be conveyed. It was fun, funny, serious, exciting, compelling. all rolled into one. Plus the acting was the best out of all 6 films and the Direction was the best. Jedi, while good, is average when compared on every level. 

AntcuFaalb said:

I guess my opinion is unpopular here, but I'll repeat it again because the meat of what I'm trying to say is hidden in that big comment block in my previous post.

I love Star Wars, I really do, but I fail to see its value as anything more than a three-part morality tale with great characters, creatures, and Jim Henson Muppet-monsters.

I just don't see the point in bickering about the ROTJ plot. It fits in with the others because they're collectively just three silly little movies. That is, they're three very successful and entertaining movies, but silly little ones nonetheless. Enjoy them!

Star Wars =/= Citizen Kane

Well on that basis theres nothing subjective or contentious about them so lets just all give up and get on with our lives. (?)

generalfrevious said:

They shouldn't have Anakin live on tattooine in the first place! They just lazily added that planet into the plot of every movie except ESB. 

Correct. But it all had to 'rhyme' didnt it? (Bullshit)

No, sorry. If you don't truly know someone then your opinions are irrelevant. Luke wasnt truly part of the Lars family. He was the grandchild of a woman who their father had married. Who's father they'd met very briefly. Now I don't know about you but I'm not that self opinionated to have a negative opinion of someone I don't know. Now if Owen had said, 'Luke look, I heard some tragic things about your father. I even met him once. I didnt know him personally so my opinion of him means nothing, but I care for you and I don't want you to go. But I realise that I cannot stop you. But that wasnt in Star Wars and what was said DIDNT tie in at all with what happened in AOTC. 

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Lord Haseo said:

And until ROTJ:R comes out I have to be constantly reminded of the gaping plot hole concerning Leia's true mother.

What plot hole is that?

I assume he's talking about the plot hole in ROTS (not ROTJ) where Padme dies before Leia could have had memories of her.  Continuity with the existing films wasn't given a lot of consideration in the PT.  Obviously this plothole could have been avoided by having Padme live for a few more years after giving birth.  But I'm not sure how Adywan could swing that sort of change.

EDIT: I guess he could be saying that this bit in ROTJ could be edited out in ROTJ:R to effectively remove the plothole from ROTS if you're watching them as a complete saga.  But editing one movie as a way to fix continuity problems in another movie seems a little backward to me.

The other plot hole which arises due to the sloppy writing in the PT is the way Anakins prior relationship with Owen is told. In Star Wars Obi Wan tells Luke that his Uncle thought he shouldn't have got involved in following him in some damn idealistic crusade. Beru even tells Owen that he can't stop Luke, he has too much of his father in him. 'Thats what I'm afraid of' comes the reply. Now this dialogue portrays a sense that there was a formed relationship there in the past. But come AOTC? They saw Anakin briefly when he comes searching for his mother and all he was was pissed off. 

georgec said:

After ST09 I would bet my left nut that nearly every ST fan was just so relieved they were past the Rick Berman era. Even if they didn't like certain aspects of the reboot, they were just happy to have a fresh take on ST (and one that wouldn't mess with the original timeline).

What is it with Ricks? 

none said:

Different point but similar idea:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/10/most-citizens-of-the-star-wars-galaxy-are-probably-totally-illiterate

Intriguing link. 

Corruption usually comes down to one thing. Money. At least in our reality it does. The pursuit of riches, for those after it, usually means morals and ethics are the last things on their minds. Was this the ideal behind the 'supposed' corruption in the PT? An advanced Galactic civilisation and yet all everyone gave two shits about was how much cash they had in their back pocket? I'm richer than you!! (While sticking 2 fingers up). 

Well it's going to be extremely interesting to see if the screenplay Abrams is given turns out to be nothing but another popcorn movie. I personally think Arndt will come up with something good and engaging. So it'll all be on the shoulders of JJ to deliver what the fans want. Mind you saying that, opinion seems very divided with what fans are willing to accept without question after the PT.

imperialscum said:

Thrawn said:

Too bad he didn't consider being authentic with Star Trek. I seriously have my doubts that he will in any way honor or respect the Star Wars universe, but that's my own personal viewpoint based on what I have seen of his movies. I sincerely do hope I'm wrong.

I don't think that's really up to him. Lucas' story treatment and Arndt's screenplay will define things.

Film director (if not also a writer) is basically more or less an operational director. In general, I think writers should get more credit than the director since they are the real creative force.

In a sense they are. But it is up to the director to tell that story visually and bring it to life. That takes skill and adeptness if it is to be done properly. Otherwise it may aswell just be a book. The directors vision is what it comes down to.

It gets to me when I hear 'Palpatine cleverly manipulated the Senate and fooled the Jedi'. No he didnt. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that. This civilisation is so clever they've mastered space travel, built fantastic planet sized cities, numerous species harmoniously interact with one another. But noone amongst them was savvy enough to studiously watch the increasingly and openly suspicious Palpatine? Corruption is rife amongst the Senate. Is it really? And how do you know this? Why are you not reporting who is corrupt and allowing the Jedi to investigate and deal with these corrupt senators? You obviously seem to know a lot, so come on, give us the full SP. 

Maybe when the Jedi suspected he may have something to do with it, a quick blood test (as Qui-Gon did with Anakin) to test his midichlorian (wince. Hate typing that word) count would've been revealing? My, his count is just as high as Yoda's. Hmm now there's a thing. No they was all too dumb to even think of it.

I'm struggling to remember what speeder scene your relating to in AOTC?

How do you know Vader didnt send troops to investigate? He obviously sensed Luke was still alive. Maybe the TIEs that intercept the Falcon were there to search for Luke and stumbled upon it rescuing him. That's the way I see it. 

Ryan McAvoy said:

Hey, it's me. said:

I admit I have tried to defend the whole Han rescue making sense before but truthfully, it just doesn't. It's a contrived mess just thought up in 5 mins so as to get all the main protagonists back on screen. As if Lucas was thinking that's what the audience would want to see. One thing that hasn't been pointed out (I assume) is how comes Fett didnt recognise Lando? Now I know he had his guards uniform on but the majority of his face was still discernable? Hadn't he clocked him at various points and thought, 'hang on, he looks kinda familiar? ESB Fett was portrayed as a cunning, intelligent bounty hunter. If I was Fett, when it all kicked off I would've just said see ya. I got paid for Solo and this ain't my beef. Pretty sure there are other gangsters out there to work for. It's like if you work in a bank and it gets robbed, what do you do? Try to be a hero? No, if your smart you do f*** all and try to get out of there if the opportunity presents itself. No rather than that we're led to believe that instead of just being out for himself, through some kind of blind loyalty to his gangster sub contractor that's never been established, he gets involved. And so we get the premature, comical death of one of the best parts of ESB. 

You don't think Boba Fett would see any benefit in saving the life of the HUGELY WEALTHY AND POWERFULL Jabba?????

No not really. Bounty hunters are out for number one. What so I'm supposed to believe that the Hutts are the ONLY gangsters in the galaxy worth working for? The Hutts controlled Tatooine, that's one planet out of a whole galaxy. And if its said elsewhere that they controlled more I don't care because it isn't established in the film. 

Bingowings said:

Dengar and Bossk are still in the film, clearly all the good Bounty hunters operate out of one room.

Which makes more sense than the awful droid torture scene or Yoda going from slight cough to lying down and dying in the middle of a conversation.

Yeah it was a little too convenient wasnt it. Hobbling around, gets in to bed, says yeah Vaders your father and by the way you've got a sibling, dead. 

I admit I have tried to defend the whole Han rescue making sense before but truthfully, it just doesn't. It's a contrived mess just thought up in 5 mins so as to get all the main protagonists back on screen. As if Lucas was thinking that's what the audience would want to see. One thing that hasn't been pointed out (I assume) is how comes Fett didnt recognise Lando? Now I know he had his guards uniform on but the majority of his face was still discernable? Hadn't he clocked him at various points and thought, 'hang on, he looks kinda familiar? ESB Fett was portrayed as a cunning, intelligent bounty hunter. If I was Fett, when it all kicked off I would've just said see ya. I got paid for Solo and this ain't my beef. Pretty sure there are other gangsters out there to work for. It's like if you work in a bank and it gets robbed, what do you do? Try to be a hero? No, if your smart you do f*** all and try to get out of there if the opportunity presents itself. No rather than that we're led to believe that instead of just being out for himself, through some kind of blind loyalty to his gangster sub contractor that's never been established, he gets involved. And so we get the premature, comical death of one of the best parts of ESB. 

Look ere mush. Brilliant. :)

CatBus said:

Contentious or incomplete, but contentious is admittedly more fun.  Welcome aboard!

Thanks. I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan, so to coin a phrase, 'this is where the fun begins' :)

Ahh..so you have to be contentious. I get it now. I've had what alcoholics call a moment of clarity.

I'm sorry I know I'm new on this forum and you've probably known each other (on here) for years, but is this customary habit to just ignore anyone who's new? Are you all that opinionated and arrogant? 

Bingowings, agree with practically everything you posted there. Apart from the cheap and nasty comment. Jedi looks okay. The effects weren't terrible, not by any means. Jabba was a fantastic creation and the end (space) battle sequence was very good. With Jedi, it just gets on my tits when I hear Lucas just wanted it done and dusted. He'd had enough and wanted it over. Why? For crying out ****ing loud these are YOUR films YOU wanted to make so make the final act the best it can be and do the previous 2 the justice they deserve. It's not like the man puts up with the daily drudge most of us have to. Day in day out, week in week out, year in year out. 

It wasn't just the screenwriting that was wrong with the PT. Although,that was probably its major flaw.

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

Ryan McAvoy said:

Star Wars was never meant to be subtle, Lucas set out to pay with our ingrained cultural tropes (Deviating from this is partly why the PT struggled). 

I disagree. A talented writer could have made the PT a pessimistic saga steeped in moral ambiguity/relativism and still made it good. George isn't a talented writer, however, and that is why the PT we got is a complete failure.

 

In terms of overall quality, ROTJ was a total contradiction to ESB. And it shouldn't have been. It should've followed the same tone and feel that empire had. Otherwise, IMO, you may aswell be watching two totally unrelated films. It was a complete 180, and it was no wonder Kasdan didnt want anything to with the PT. Dont get me wrong, Jedi did have some good stuff in there and ill always enjoy watching it. But always with that hint of regret that it could've been so much better.