HeKS

Laser,

That color correction is looking pretty great. For the first time it looks like this movie is set in the same universe as the first three ... and for the first time I'm starting to believe that the Jungle Chase actually might take place in a real jungle. The only one that looks washed out to me is the 6th sample image you posted, but since it's incredibly washed out in the original, too, I doubt there's much you can do about it.

I don't know if you've taken a look at my photoshop edits showing what I think might work for certain scenes, but if you have, do they seem like something you could do in the video?

Take care,
Ryan

Here's a sample of before and after the wipe with the lower level frame zoomed after the wipe to maintain the appearance of a consistent distance. I think it looks pretty good ... wouldn't even notice there was a change.

Ryan

CONTINUING WITH INTERROGATION...

ROSS: Relax, boys. I can vouch for Dr. Jones.

INDY: What the hell is going on?

INDY: KGB on American soil? Who is that woman?

FBI 1: Describe her.

INDY: Tall, thin, mid-30s,

INDY: carried a sword of some kind, a rapier, I think.

Spalko's folder gets thrown on the table

- Now, we need to move up Indy's next line, "Yeah, that's her", so that he says it right after he turns the file towards him on the table, before we pan up to see him.

- Next we use FBI 2 walking across frame as a wipe to cut between two frame sequences. By the time FBI 2 walks far enough to start revealing Indy again, we've already jumped to right before Indy says, "Who is she?" on the underlying video layer. So FBI 2 and everything to the left of him is one frame sequence on the upper video layer, and everything to the right of him is the later video sequence on the lower video layer.

- In the actual movie, as FBI 2 walks across, the camera zooms out a bit. In order to avoid a visual inconsistency, we will need to zoom in as he walks across frame to the same degree that the movie zooms out. This way, when he walks across frame and reveals Indy and Ross behind him, they will not look like they have magically moved a little further away.

- Zooming in like this will also help us by having FBI 2 eventually move all the way out of frame as he walks around the table to stand beside Indy before saying, "General Ross!" and taking away the folder. This helps us because it gives us a point where we can seemlessly switch entirely to the underlying video layer so we're synched up again.

The dialog now goes, "Yeah, that's her .... who is she?" removing the kinda lame...

FBI 2: You sure she's here?

INDY: Here and gone.

Of course Indy's sure she's here. But he can't really know she's gone. She may very well still be relatively close.

I've attached some photoshop manipulations to show this edit in action...

If you take a look at the movie, you will see that this is NOT how it looks when FBI 2 walks across frame.

Ryan

OperationBedlam said:

This is to Jones1898:

 

My point is valid and I am just saying what needs to be said.  You want this edit done.  Yet no one wants to/ can do it.  So because its not getting done, you are pushing this thread everyday saying your hoping for progress.  You even go as far as to go to threads for other edits asking if that editor will be doing an edit.  You just don't understand that this edit ain't getting done unless someone who is really motivated wants it done.

You want it done, so why not do it.  As I said, you cannot learn something unless you try, and with a little work and practice and trial and error, you can accomplish what other editors have.  Yes, you likely won't be able to achieve the degree immediately, but at least you can get this edit done which you've obviously invested a great deal of time to in the past few months. 

 

As for editing ideas, I really feel that much has been said.  I'm not the kind of person that would ever share an edit I do, as I do it simply for personal enjoyment.  I'm not harking on your ideas, just trying to point out that you're beating a dead horse.  Give the thread a few days (even a week or two) and time to breathe.  Posting everyday wondering what people's progress is will not get this edit done.  The fact that no one seems to be actively editing it will also hinder progress greatly.  :)

 

Personally, I think that coming up with the edit ideas (both issues and solutions) is significant progress and will greatly speed up the time it will take to do the actual edit. That's why I'm posting lengthy descriptions of exactly how I think scenes should be edited, even posting sample pics of the suggested edit. Not having to figure those things out at edit time will certainly speed up the work.

Take care,

Ryan

I'm thinking I might even be able to make Indy stand up in that shot where he's masked by FBI 1. Here's the order of shots

1 -

2 -

3 -

4 -

5 -

Everyone is in the proper place through the transition, looking at the right people, and everyone ends up in the position they should be for this final shot.

Ryan

Ok, I'm gonna try posting some images I uploaded to flickr. These are fairly quick photoshop manipulations to show the key frames in my suggestion in option 1 above to smoothly remove Ross' offending lines about the fridge. The third and fourth images don't actually exist in the film ... they are compilations of various frames, taken from video segments that I think could be edited and combined the same way.

1- http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/3193052231_74b7f924bc_o.jpg

2 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3193052237_0a4077d22f_o.jpg

3 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/3193052245_abcafd2355_o.jpg

4 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/3193052247_0d22c2cd77_o.jpg

(or this possible alternate for 4 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3193071241_e4e83d76d7_o.jpg)

5 - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3193052253_20ecbc32e9_o.jpg

It's a very quick job, but it should give an idea of what I'm suggesting for the flow of that bit of the scene.

Ryan

Alright, I need some thoughts on the second part of the interrogation scene, starting with the entrance of General Ross. Based on the changes we've made thus far, Indy never climbs in that fridge, so we HAVE to remove the line where Ross says, "Don't you know it's dangerous to climb into a refrigerator? Those things can be deathtraps!"

The problem I'm having is that it's one long shot from when he enters until after he says that line with no camera angle changes, in which time Indy stands up, which makes it very difficult to cut out that line smoothly. I THINK I've come up with a solution, but I need another pair of eyes. Ironically, my solution would actually solve a continuity error in the scene as it is now, but I'll point that out in a second.

Alright, Ross starts talking pretty much the instant he starts entering the room, however, you don't see his lips moving until he's around the other side of FBI 1. When Ross enters, the camera moves to him, and as it pans back to take in the rest of the set, FBI 2, who had been sitting a second earlier, is suddenly standing. To solve this will, I think, take a rather sophisticated edit which will involve combining aspects of several separate frame sequences. Here's what I'm thinking...

OPTION 1:

- Camera cuts to Ross entering the room, it starts to pan back into the room, but before Indy comes into frame we cut to the ealier shot where FBI 2 sits down just before saying "... of America, my country." We take the frames of him going from standing to sitting and we reverse them and slow them down a bit, so he looks like he's getting up rather than sitting down. His mouth will be moving slightly, but it looks like it could just be exertion of standing ... this will especially be true if it's slightly slowed down.

- Now, we grab the shot where FBI 1 says, "you tell us.." to Indy and Indy turns to look at him. I'm pretty sure the camera is positioned exactly the same for this turning shot as the shot of FBI 2 sitting down above that we're reversing. We overlay the frames of Indy turning in response to FBI 1 (slightly sped up) over the frames that now have FBI 2 standing up, cropping off both the left and right sides of the frames of Indy turning so the two shots melt into each other and only Indy is replaced in the underlying shot. The effect is that when Ross enters the room, FBI 2 starts to stand (resolving the incontinuity of having FBI 2 sitting in one shot and standing a second later in another shot) and Indy turns to look in Ross' direction ... and because we're basically only replacing Indy in the reversed shot of FBI 2 sitting down, FBI 1 has not yet come into frame, so Indy turning to look in Ross' direction actually looks like he's turning to Ross because FBI 1 isn't in the frame ... making this whole thing seem like an unused shot. (You may need to read that again a few times)

- But we're not done. The primary problem we have is that Indy begins to stand WHILE Ross is delivering the lines we need to cut and it all happens in one long panning shot. So we need to be able to seamlessly cut out Ross' lines while not ending up with a continuity problem of Indy sitting one second and standing the next, shaking Ross' hand. The problem is compounded by the fact that we don't really have any unused shots that we can put in to have him stand up to greet ross out of frame. At least we don't have an unused shot to solve the problem yet. What we need is something to totally block the screen for about a second and a half that will block Indy from the camera's view, allowing him to seemingly get up off camera. So what we're gonna do is go back to the those frames of FBI 2 sitting down, cause a few seconds after he sits, FBI 1 leans into frame on the same side of the table as the camera is positioned and puts his hands on the table (though his hands are out of frame). We need to cut him out of those frames, increase his size and move him over to the right, which would be closer to camera, and slow him down slightly. The effect will be that he briefly blocks Indy and his surrounding area out of screen, right up to the top of frame, long enough to appear to give Indy time to stand.

- We then cut back to the original panning shot after Indy has stood and while he's shaking Ross' hand saying, "Good to see you, too, Bob".

So, put that all together and what we appear to have is Ross entering room saying "Thank God, Indy", followed by an unused shot of FBI 2 starting to stand, a split second later Indy quickly looking in the direction of the door and Ross, FBI 1 leaning into camera blocking view of Indy for a second or so, then the camera switching angles to get a view of Indy again who has already stood up and is shaking Ross' hand. And the great thing is it resolves a current incontinuity and everyone stays where they should be so that they'll be in the right place when we cut back to the original shot. The reason we needed to that bit about having Indy turn is because it will cut down the time one would expect for him to be standing and shaking hands with Ross. If he has already turned to look at him, you will expect it to take him less time to get up than if he's facing away one second and standing shaking his hand the next ... but it doesn't take much more than a second to stand and shake the hand of someone you see walking toward you.

OPTION 2:

- Find some shot in the scene we can cut to immediately after Ross enters room and says, "Thank God, Indy", long enough to allow Indy to stand and start shaking Ross hand before cutting back to him saying, "Good to see you, too, Bob." Of course, I've watched this scene literally about 40 times and haven't found one, but I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

So some people PLEASE take a look at this scene and try to picture my option 1 and see if you think it might work.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Surely you understand the difference between somebody who takes a crash course in such software as opposed to the quality you get from an experienced professional. No edit is worth doing unless it is entirely seamless. 

Understand?

Also, this "obsessive asking" you're refering to is simply a hope that someone finishes the fine work they've started. I've made it a point to express my understanding that Laser (for instance) is busy and that I just hope someone  who has the experience for what looks to be some pretty heavy edits can do an edit of this film. You mentioned yourself that the Superman Returns edit is being done by a special effects professional. 

And you want US to just pick up some software and learn it? Come on...

I would LOVE to do it myself, if I could...

I agree with you jones, though I will say that I do have Premiere and SOME experience with video work, as well as some decent experience with 3D modeling. So if I got my hands on some good tutorials, I could probably do a pretty good job of this ... I'm a very quick study, but I need something to study :) When it comes to compositing, I have no experience at all, so that would probably take more time.

jones1899 said:

To be honest I would love to find someone to help us out here, but it won't be easy. I've asked around a bit here and on the other site - even around my work - but nobody's interested it seems. 

Sucks. We have the makings of a movie that actually somewhat deserves to stand beside the OT. 

Well, it's starting to look like I may have no choice but to learn to do this myself. Ah well, one thing at a time. I'm about to post some thoughts on the next part of the FBI scene and I wouldn't mind some feedback

Ryan

and so was this

Posting hiccup ... this was a duplicate post

jones1899 said:

Well, I definitely don't want to pressure Laser into working on it. He'll do it when he's ready - if he's ready and I was only joking about the paying thing. Which is why I think we need to just hope for someone else to come in and do work on this. Laser did great work, but I know I wouldn't want to be bugged by anyone to do something I wasn't totally into. Maybe we can look over at fanedits.rog

Do you feel like taking it upon yourself to see if you can find one or more people who might be interested  in taking on the basic editing aspect of the project (and who are capable of quality work)? I'm pretty swamped with my own work at the moment, so figuring out edits is just about exhausting my extra time.

Laserschwert said:

As said, I won't give any time-frames, so don't put all your hopes just in me.

Your editing suggestions look good, and I think they provide a nice template to follow. So with a detailed editing instruction like that it shouldn't take too long to change a scene. Editing is the easier part of any changes... digital changes take a lot more time to do, and I think the editing itself can be learned quite quickly... the web is full of tutorials regarding that (and I think there are some links in this thread as well).

Ok, so say we handled the basic editing part of things ... what kind of "digital changes" are you capable of doing? Can you give some examples? Cause if we know what you can achieve on that side, it may inform some editing decisions and open up a few doors to how to rework things that might otherwise be closed to us.

Ryan

Laserschwert said:

Before you do anything stupid (like paying me), I'll hit the brakes right away. The whole thing is just a hobby-project for me, and it's not only my job that's keeping me away from the edit. I'm doing it on the side, when I feel like it, and that's it.

Hi Laser,

Thanks for joining in. Ok, that's fair enough. Do you have any expectation for when you might want to do some more work on this? At the moment we're knee-deep in figuring out good edits, so I imagine it will be a few weeks before we have any kind of finished/polished list. Do you think you might be willing to do a bit more work on this in the next month or so? And do you have any idea how long a project of this sort might take you?

Take care,

Ryan

jones1899 said:

It's on page one - the first post has the full list then additional changes. The Ox stuff IS sort of jumping the gun though if we're taking things slow and in order.

Also, though I think we've got a lot of great stuff here and more to come, I still think we're gonna need to recruit someone to actually make all of this a reality. Many of these things will require someone experienced with this sort of thing so that it all looks seamless. So either we find someone or we pay Laser's salary so he can quit his job and do this full time :)

 

Or we could all pitch in and pay him for his time ... at least partially ... considering he wanted to do it for himself too. Seriously. We should see what his rate is and how long it would take him to do the job and then decide if a bunch of us are willing to split that cost to get him to do it.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

To be honest, I didn't notice the name thing in the 3 times I've seen KOTCS. Please note that only ONE of those three viewings were for pleasure (or a hope of pleasure) the other two were for edits. Anyway, I would say it would be pretty dumb for him to start shying away from using Indy as his name and instead going for Henry. Geez, we need to retain as much of OT as possible I say - especially the fella's damn name...

As for Ox, since we can't cut the dumbass completely, there are several things we can do to make him less TERRIBLE. Heks, take a look at the lists topdawg and I put together in regards to Ox especially. For example, the scene where we meet Ox dancing and prancing can be improved greatly, the "help" gag during the quick sand scene can work better and the sand/obelisk puzzle can be solved by Indy instead of Ox with a few simple edits. Check them out. See what you think.

 

I'd be happy to look at those lists again. Would you mind reminding me what page of this thread they're on?

I'm also thinking that once I finish my comprehensive list, we can all start looking at individual scenes that might be improved through subtle changes to order, performances (using bonus feature takes), effects, etc. I'm thinking, for example, of some of the changes laser made to the narrative flow of the jungle chase, like reordering where Mutt finds the sword to match up better with Spalko taking out hers. It was a subtle change but rather brilliant in my opinion.

Ryan

The Golden Idol said:

HeKS said:

Something else occurred to me this morning that needs to be fixed in this movie. The name "Indiana Jones" and "Indy" is almost never used in this movie. It's almost like Indy has given up calling himself that and is now going by Henry Jones Jr., except he isn't.

What do you propose to fix that?

 

Excellent question ... I have no idea. LOL

I guess I'll tackle that when I come to noticeable cases, but I'm not above pulling instances of his name being said from previous movies if they can be put in naturally and not be noticed. Also, I plan on cutting several scenes with Ox, which will help the problem. But I'm certainly open to suggestions.

Ryan

Doctor M said:

If you consider the Young Indiana Jones shows to be canonical, Indy had been calling himself Indy since we very first meet him as a child.

If from then up through Holy Grail he had been going by Indianna, it's inane to think he would suddenly decide it's time to change again.

I couldn't agree more.

Ryan

Another reason why I don't buy the idea of him starting to use Henry because of his reconciliation with his father: It was by using the name "Indiana" that his father got through to him at the end of Last Crusade. We might basically view this as the essential summation and completion of their reconciliation. And yet, after they're outside the temple again, when Henry calls him Junior, he says something like, "Junior? Dad...", obviously annoyed at it. And then Sallah asks what's with the Junior, and Henry says, "That's his name, Henry Jones Jr." and Indy says "I LIKE Indiana", Henry says, "We named the dog, Indiana", and Indy says, "I have a lot of fond memories of that dog".

So even after the reconciliation at the end of LC, they still make it clear that he wants to keep using Indiana and not switch to Henry Jones Jr. KOTCS essentially contradicts the ending thoughts of LC - assuming it's even intentional that they don't use Indiana much - and make no effort to explain it - again, if it's anything other than a stupid oversight in the writing. Since "Indiana Jones" is the iconic and titular name of the series, changing it or failing to use it like it was used in the 3 others certainly needs some explanation. In my opinion, however, no explanation would be good enough considering the movie is called INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL

Ryan

Uncanny Antman said:

I dunno...I kind of figured that it was symbolic of where he is in life now. His acceptance of the name Henry would come from bonding with his father years earlier, and I can imagine it healing the old wounds that led to him adopting "Indy" in the first place*.

Characters can grow and change, even if fans often don't want them to. :)


*Though I haven't seen a lot of the Young Indy Chronicles, so I have no idea when the name was introduced in those stories.

From what I recall, he adopted the name before he had a falling out with his Dad. But in any case, I think it's one thing to have a character change over time, it's another thing for a titular character to no longer use his name. Why not call the movie, "Henry Jones, Jr. and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull"?

Something else occurred to me this morning that needs to be fixed in this movie. The name "Indiana Jones" and "Indy" is almost never used in this movie. It's almost like Indy has given up calling himself that and is now going by Henry Jones Jr., except he isn't.

The weirdest spot of all is where he's being held captive by Spalko in the jungle and he sees Ox for the first time and says something like (from memory), "Hey Ox, it's me, Indiana Jo ... (glances over at Spalko, then back to Ox) ... Henry Jones Jr." The way it's shot and edited it seems like he's trying to hide from Spalko that his name is Indiana Jones, only he's doing a really bad job at it ... and there's no conceivable reason why he should want to hide his name or why we should think she doesn't already know it.

Any ideas on how we can resolve this problem specifically and the wider problem of not using his name generally?

Ryan

You know, it just occured to me that, through our edits, we've finally given this scene a 'raison d'etre'. As it stands now, this scene is entirely redundant and unnecessary. I doesn't really move the story along and given Indy no new useful information, since the whole scene is built around revealing Spalko's identity, which she kindly already offerred to Indy right up front in the opening sequence. At least now, because of our edits, he has no idea who she is and only learns in this scene.

I'm sure we'll be getting a thank you card from Lucas and Spielberg any day now :)

Also, had Koepp made the FBI agents even slightly less stupid, he could have used them to reveal the identity of Spalko without adding the additional otherwise entirely unnecessary character of Ross, who we never hear from again. So, as it stands in the original, not only is this scene pointless, but it also introduces THREE pointless new characters that we never see again! Damn you Koepp! They waited 19 years for this?! Ugh!

Ryan

Ok, this covers the first half of the Interrogation scene. I'm pretty sure this works, but anyone who has a copy of the movie is welcome to check it out and give me some feedback. This covers minutes 22-23:10

-------- 22 MINUTE MARK --------


Rough draft of INTERROGATION CUTS - Part 1

- Cut FBI 2 (Paul) immediately after "in the middle of the United States of America". Instead of him saying "my country", cut directly to Indy saying, "What was in the steel box they took?", like he's cutting FBI 2 off.

- Camera goes to FBI 1 and there's a pause where he's looking at FBI 2 before he turns to Indy and says, "You tell us. You've seen it before." Crop out this pause and cut directly to him saying that line to Indy as soon as Indy finishes his question. (We'll need that cropped pause where he's not talking soon)

- When Indy responds to FBI 1, mute out his "Oh" as though he's surprised that it's about the Air Force thing. He already knows it is from the opening sequence, so mute the "oh" (his lips don't move) and have him start directly with "You mean that Air Force fiasco in '47."

- Earlier, after FBI 2 says, "my country", camera lingers on him for a second of silence. We need this second, which we might need to slow down slightly. After Indy says, "...fiasco in '47", he turns to FBI 2 and starts, "I was tossed in a bus with blacked out windows and 20 people I wasn't allowed to talk to.." This sounds too prepared and I don't like the line readings, so here's what I suggest....

- When Indy turns to FBI 2, and before he starts talking, we immediately cut to that second of silence looking at FBI 2 after he says "my country". We slow this slightly and overdub Indy's "I was" from "I was tossed in a bus.." (we can't see Indy's mouth in this shot but he's facing the right way) and then cut directly back to facing Indy as he says, "Hauled out in the middle of the night...", so now he says, "I was hauled out in the middle of the night...".

- Indy continues to "...and shown what? Pieces of wreckage and an intensely magnetic shroud covering mutilated remains?", but I say we cut him off at "magnetic shroud" and switch to that cropped second of non-talking looking at FBI 1 from a few steps above. This makes it seem like Indy paused after saying "magnetic shroud" and that we're looking at FBI 1's reaction shot to Indy saying this. Then we cut back to Indy saying, "None of us was ever given the full picture. And we were threatened with treason if we ever talked about it. So, you tell me, what was in the box?"

-------- 23:10 MINUTE MARK --------

Immediately after this, General Ross comes in ... and his first line is gonna be a tough one to figure out ... at least in my current tired state. So I'll pick this up tomorrow. Input and suggestions on this first part are very welcome.

Ryan

Well, I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure this scene could really be described as him being actively involved in any action. He just kinda stumbles around looking surprised at everything, acts clumsy, then climbs into a fridge. The 'best' part of his involvement in the scene is thinking to get in the fridge. Of course, in a world that even remotely follows the basic laws of physics, it wouldn't have done him any good. If I buy him saving himself from a nuke in a fridge, I'd just as easily buy him using chewing gum to make a baloon that could carry the weight of a jeep gently down into water instead of having to use a rubber band CGI tree later in the movie.

In the end, I guess it depends what we're trying to achieve here and what perspective we're looking at it from. I want a version of the movie that sits well with the others, which means it can have fantastical and improbable escapes ... but not OBVIOUSLY impossible ones. If you jump out of a plane in a rubber life raft, you'll probably die ... but if you keep a good angle to slow decent and land on a major slope covered in cushy snow then I can suspend my disbelief and accept that maybe, just maybe, if all the planets are properly aligned, you could do it and walk away. I can't say the same for the nuked fridge. You'd be dead. If the initial concussion didn't turn your brain to jelly, I say you'd get enough radiation exposure to die anyway. And if that didn't kill you, the concussion of landing would kill you. And if that didn't, your proximity to the blast while outside of the fridge would expose you to enough radiation to kill you.

Now if it's just that last one, I can tell myself maybe he'd be alright ... maybe he was further than he seemed to be ... maybe with a good scrub down he'd walk away, which is why I left it in. But when it's 4 ways to meet certain death in quick succession, I just can't buy him walking away. So, for me, having a version that sits beside the others means nothing so extremely beyond the events of Temple of Doom or Last Crusade (in either silliness or stupidity) that it appears to take place in an entirely different universe.

That would essentially be my case for leaving out the nuked fridge.

Doctor M said:

Um, I know it's on topic, but next time why don't you just post a link to a text file, HeKS.

Cause I'm not sure where to upload it to link to from here. I have never used any of those upload / file hosting services. Plus it just seems handy to have direct access to it in the thread.

HeKS