HeKS

jones1899 said:

Heks, you make some really good points here - especially about the pacing. ID's edit WILL have a chase followed by a chase and that could be an issue. Interesting. 

But as far as using the island where the ark was opened, I think that would put too much emphasis on Raiders (which this movie is nowhere near in any fashion) and the Ark (which is featured for only 2 seconds). 

In fact, I'm curious (and excited) to see how opening with anything frmo Raiders is gonna work. Have to say though, ID is good. He's very very good. So if anyone could make it work...

Hey Jones1899,

I can actually think of some ways it might be incorporated quite attractively in black and white. If it were me, what I'm thinking is opening with the dissolve from the paramount logo to a peak on that island, then cutting directly to the ark lid spinning down from the sky and landing on the ark, then showing Indy turning to Marion and putting his hands on her face while she standing up against the pole they were tied to ... fade to black ... fade into him walking down the steps in D.C. and looking back up them in frustration (but cutting the dialog out) and showing Marion tipping up his hat like in ID's screencap ... fade to black ... fade into the ark being pushed through the warehouse and put in it's place ... fade to black for about 5 seconds ... fade into the doors of the warehouse opening and in a wide shot and Indy walking in with Spalko and company.

I'd say not include any dialog from the Raiders snippets and play one of the more subdued Raiders themes over it all, having the theme start to fade out over the 5 second black screen transitioning to KOTCS, but have the theme abruptly stopped by the opening of the warehouse doors in KOTCS rather than having a chance to fade out entirely.

But to make the Raiders bits have more of a payoff I think the KOTCS scene needs to be edited to give the impression that Indy has somehow seen the ark when the crate it's in breaks open ... though I guess that isn't ENTIRELY necessary, since it still sets up the warehouse itself. I think that the Raiders bits also set tie in the FBI agents in the interrogation being 'bureaucratic fools' ... which I guess might be an argument for including that line in the Raiders snippet ... I guess both could be tried to see which works better.

Take care,
Ryan

InfoDroid said:

HeKS said:   From what I can tell the color looks good. As for the arrangement ... just a thought ... I think the B&W Raiders bit is an interesting idea because of the warehouse tie in, but I wonder if putting the Orellana's Cradle scene next might disconnect the Raiders bit from the warehouse scene a little too much.

HeKs, I chose Orellana's Cradle as the first scene for three reasons:

1) It's very close to the tone and feel of the opening scene of both Raiders and my Temple of Doom edit.  The pace is perfect for the credit sequence.  It slowly draws you in to the movie.

2) It sets up the whole Crystal Skull plot and poses the question to the audience "What IS this thing"?

and 3) (and this is an important one) The stone spire in the graveyard is the ONLY triangular-shaped object in the entire movie that you could fade into from the Paramount logo, which is an essential thing to have....other than the "gopher mound" which I refuse to use.  That was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

So, I appreciate your suggestions, HeKs.  They're good ones, and I understand what you're saying.  But, I think I'll be keeping this arrangement.  It works for me.  Keep in mind also, that film flow and music flow is also a big factor in making these decisions. 

As far as the titles for "a few days earlier" are concerned...I'm a big fan of Oliver Stone, so I've always enjoyed mixing up the timeline on movies.  Quentin Tarantino's strategy also is a big inspiration.  It's all about "rate of revelation" to the audience.  It's about building questions in their mind and then choosing when to let them in on the answer. 

George Lucas' strategy has always been to lead the audience from point A to point B.  First people talk about what they're going to do.  Then we watch them do it.  I try to limit that as much as possible, and for me, it makes it so much more interesting to watch.  And to avoid making Indy look dumb, the audience should never know more than the main character knows, except for a few Hitchcockian exceptions.  This film suffers from a lot of that.  So, personally, I'd rather jump around the timeline a bit and "suffer through" a couple title cards rather than be bored to tears by an A to B to C storyline which is dull to begin with.

Hey InfoDroid,

Just wanted to offer a few more thoughts. Obviously this is your edit and I respect that you'll do what you see fit, but the dialog may spark some ideas ... for both of us, since I'm hoping to do an edit too.

First of all, I get your points and I see how the Orellana's Cradle scene is a good option for the title credits and paramount logo fade, but I'm thinking that opening the movie with it will mess up the general pacing of the film. KOTCS is woefully short on scenes that feel like an Indy movie and the cradle scene is one of the few. By moving it to the start of the film to be closely followed by the opening warehouse scene will put two adventure scenes back to back and leave an incredibly slow chunk in the middle. The current placement of the cradle scene is one of the only things in the middle portion of the film that I perk up at when watching it. If it's moved to the front of the film there won't be anything between the motorcycle chase and the jungle chase.

Secondly, as the major reveal of the primary artifact of the film, I think this scenario is a little different than your TOD edit. Your TOD edit used the jungle scene in the middle of the film to set an Indy mood similar to Raiders, but it wasn't an action/adventure/mystery scene really and it didn't reveal anything - like a shankara stone - that was then going to take another 45 minutes of watching before we heard about it again and found out what it was ... if you see my point. In fact, thinking about it now, if it was possible I'd like to move the underground discovery of the skull nearer to the end of the film, but I think that would be too problematic.

As for jumping around in the timeline ... I don't have a general problem with doing that kind of thing or with using title cards to signal it. I'm just not crazy about the idea of major uses of it in an Indy movie ... and I'm thinking this particular jump is problematic for the reasons mentioned above.

As for the paramount logo ... is it possible the problem could be solved in the B&W Raiders scene ... maybe using a clip from the island where the ark is opened? This seems to me like a good way to incorporate the fade since in all the other movies the fade is the first bit of film you see, whereas it seems that if the cradle scene is used for the fade then we will first be seeing the clips from Raiders and THEN having the paramount fade, which I think will break up the flow of moving directly from Raiders into this one.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Either way I look forward to your edit.

Take care,
Ryan

Oh, I'm also wondering if there might be a way to edit the warehouse scene to make it seem like Indy catches a glimpse of the ark when the crate it's in breaks open. It would be more of a payoff after the B&W Raiders intro.

InfoDroid said:

My color palette:

 

Slightly desaturated.  A little darker.  A little more contrast.

Hey Infodroid,

From what I can tell the color looks good. As for the arrangement ... just a thought ... I think the B&W Raiders bit is an interesting idea because of the warehouse tie in, but I wonder if putting the Orellana's Cradle scene next might disconnect the Raiders bit from the warehouse scene a little too much.

And if I'm being honest, I'm not sure I'm crazy about starting with that later scene and then saying "a few days earlier". What I do agree with is the need to jump right into an adventure like the other movies, which makes me wonder how it would work if you faded out from the B&W Raiders scene to black for like 5 seconds and then jump directly to the warehouse doors opening and Indy walking in with Spalko and company. If this scene is edited to run a bit tighter then after the rocket sled, when Indy is running off, it could then cut to the FBI interrogation scene. Then the interrogation could be intercut with the scene leading up to them walking into the warehouse, using a few voiceovers and only what little is needed of the original opening scene of the movie before entering the warehouse to give some context to the scene. In fact you might just be able to use snippets of the opening scene as responses to FBI questions. FBI suggests he was working with Russians, you very briefly intercut him being pulled out of the trunk and thrown to the ground and all the guns being pointed at him. All in all we/you try to make it seem like he was acting more against his will then the movie currently makes it seem ... since in the actual movie he goes along fairly easily.

At the end of the interrogation you go directly into the school scene, as the movie currently does. We thus avoid any MAJOR jumps in time, don't need any subtitles saying "so many days earlier or later", still start the movie with the adventure right off the bat, and don't lose any necessary information from the mostly unnecessary intro.

What do you think?

Ryan

InfoDroid said:

That's awesome, HeKs!  You really have to look close to perceive any artificiality.  Actually, considering NOTHING but the people are real, that's pretty damn amazing, even looking closely at it.  Good job!  Are you going to school for that?

Good analysis, Jones.  I agree on every point.

And Dr. M, in regard to the beams shooting into Spalko's eyes.  I like that idea, but didn't Belloq do something similar in Raiders?  Ghostbusters ectoplasm shot out of his eyes and struck the Nazi soldiers.  But maybe that similarity would be a good thing.  :)

Hey InfoDroid,

Thanks. Glad you liked it. No, not going to school for it. It's all self-taught. In fact, of all the many things I do for work I'm self taught in all of them

jones1899 said:

Wow Heks look great man. MAYBE the last guy stands out a little - might be the actual quality of the his photo though. The rest I could look at for days and not realize it was all a lie. Nicely done...

 

...Now focus some of that amazing talent where it matters huh? LOL

Oh ... as for your last comment ... that's why I was working on that Harrison Ford model I posted earlier in this thread ... my main problem is I have very little experience with character modeling so far, though I'll soon immerse myself in it,  and my reference images were low-res DVD screen grabs.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Wow Heks look great man. MAYBE the last guy stands out a little - might be the actual quality of the his photo though. The rest I could look at for days and not realize it was all a lie. Nicely done...

 

...Now focus some of that amazing talent where it matters huh? LOL

Thanks Jones1899.

I think the last guy stands out primarily because he's directly in front of an almost-white wall that's being brightened by sunlight ... but I actually think someone would stand out there even if the whole thing was a photograph. I could have provided him with a bit of a halo of light, which is what would have probably happened in that scenario if it were a real photograph, but I opted for a cleaner look, since that's what the client seemed to want.

Just thought I'd post the end result of the 3D project I've been working on. Here are the 4 images. Everything is CG except the people, who were added from photographs I took and placed in the rendered images in post production. Images are copyrighted.

Tell me what ya think.

Ryan

InfoDroid said:

Okay, Heks!  Sounds great!  As soon as you get the shots completed, let me know.  ;)

If only I could :)  I could probably manage it with Photoshop, but I'm only just about to delve into the world of video editing and I don't think I'm up to the task of this effect.

Ryan

InfoDroid said:

Let's analyze this for a second.  All the villains in these Indy movies always finally get what they've been chasing the entire movie.  Belloq wanted the Ark, Mola Ram wanted the stones, and Donovan wanted the Grail.  Their problem is, they see these things as objects that they can use to their own ends.  Their moral character is their ultimate downfall.  Indy always outsmarts them because he has respect for Archaeology.  He's a skeptic, but he learns his lesson by the end, just in time to avoid disaster.  The villains don't.

In every case, the gifts themselves these artifacts bestow are not bad or evil.  After all, the Grail restored life to Henry.  The Sankara stones brought life back to the village.  The Ark...well...the Ark was too holy to even behold.  But when they fell into the wrong hands, their "gifts" had disastrous consequences. 

The question we should be asking is, how can we continue that pattern with KOTCS?  Was it ever mentioned that Spalko was looking for "knowledge"?  What is her motivation?  What does she want?  And how can her ultimate pay off be turned against her?  AND how can we communicate all that on-screen in a creative way with the existing material? 

Hey InfoDroid,

I like your suggestion that we analyze this. Spalko wanted knowledge I GUESS ... but her expressed desire up to the end was to be able to control others by means of her psychic abilities ... so perhaps the knowledge - the "everything" she wanted to know - was more specifically related to her psychic abilities ... to read minds and influence them from a distance. If this is so, the 'visions' she has that lead to her death might not be grand global scale events, but an overwhelming rush of all the horrible little details in the mind of man. Alternatively, perhaps she gained the knowledge of how to outwardly express her will though her psychic powers but not how to retain her own mental or physical cohesion in the process (all that was her blasted outwards in every direction) ... leading to her bursting apart and turning into tiny bits. So maybe a better death might be to have her literally crack apart Agent Smith style when Neo jumps into him and then bursts him apart at the end of the Matrix. Of course, that would take some CG work, but it would be a death more in keeping with the rest of the series I think ... and better than what little we have now.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Damn 005, now I have to be reminded of that crap everytime I come to this page? Makes me want to put up a giant post just to get us to page 28 of this thread...lol. 

Anyone have thoughts on using old newsreel footage in the climax as Spalko's visions?

 

 

I think that's a pretty decent idea ... certainly better than what we got the first time around.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

I don't actually see Indy as James Bond. That was the direction that Lucas wanted to go, but Ford wanted him to be a bit more everyman than that. So I don't have a problem with the wedding scene (especially since it's Marion at the altar). What I have a problem with is the way it was handled. Like everything else, it was just goofy. It's like they weren't confident enough in their abilities to make a good movie, so they just made one that NEVER takes itself seriously. Like a shy guy who asks a girl out in a joking manner. If she says no, well, i was just a joke anyway. So while I am considering possibilities of recuting the wedding a bit, its not near the top of the list of things I wanted to change. Although I do agree it is similar to previous endings in the OT.

Meanwhile, the climax is KILLING ME! All I can think is to hire someone to digitally cut the full bodied alien from the scenes of Spalko dying. Like I said, as it is, the only scenes of her dying WITHOUT aliens in the shot are too few to create a meaningful climax. Like its over too quickly.

I also REALLY WANT to cut the Indy saving Mac scene. How were you going to accomplish this? I though maybe have Indy go for the whip, but the place quakes, Indy falls onto the steps whip in hand, then we see Mac flying away. Not SURE this will work, but I'll look. Any other ideas?

I really wanted to give this to my mom for Easter next weekend (aw, how sweet, I know) so I was hoping to get a copy burned by then. Not looking good though.

Hey Jones,

Any chance you can post some stills from the scene you think you would need to have digitally altered?

Ryan

Hey ImperialFighter,

I get ya. If you've glanced at any of my posted edit plans from a few pages back you will see I got VERY detailed, so I understand how time consuming it can be to organize your thoughts and post em.

Take care,
Ryan

Hey ImperialFighter,

You seem to be suggesting that you have your ideas written down by hand. If that's the case, why not scan them and post the file rather than waiting several days before you can retype them?

Just a suggestion.

Take care,
Ryan

I realize this is totally off topic, but I just entered a Jason Mraz karaoke contest on myspace with the song "I'm Yours" and I need at least 100 plays for my entry to be eligible for the contest.

Would y'all mind giving it a listen? :)

http://ksolo.myspace.com/actions/showSongProfile.do?rid=1133496&sid=28354&uid=8229909

Thanks,
Ryan

jones1899 said:

I tried cutting the "my friend" from the line, but Indy doesn't pause a bit between "Doubted You" and "my friend" so the "you" cuts off in an odd manner.

MIGHT just have to leave this one alone unless someone else has any ideas...

BTW, I tried putting the gunshot into the cemetery (which I REALLY want) but Marion's video is different from mine. Any ideas on this?

Also, I'm going to export my edit out as an avi tonight and will hopefully post a pre-release soon after. 

Hey Jones,

Have you tried doing a very quick audio fade out on the "you". If the fade starts when he starts to say "you" and fades to almost nothing by the end of saying "you" then it will probably sound like a more natural end to the statement.

jones1899 said:

Ok. So. I put in the part time line (of course now I dislike the way Mutt stutters with "teacher" and prefer that line from the trailer as well) and the not as easy as it used to be line.

The never should have doubted you my friend line is not working as well. The clip has music in it which of course sticks out like a sore thumb. Any ideas?

I say just cut off "my friend" and see if the music track playing is on the KOTCS soundtrack.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Topdawg nice idea regarding the menus and DVD art. Anything that ties this one back to the others is welcome as far as I'm concerned. Any suggestions on how we should proceed with the menus? Ccan we contact the guy who made the one you posted? I wll be putting the new line readings into the edit immediately. Can't wait actually. Although I still only have the part time line. The rest weren't in the rar file. 

Sluggo, you dvd cover looks great man. Thanks!

As for the aliens... I worked and worked on the climax to take them out and as far as my limited experience can tell there's no way to do it short of digitally removing them. Here's the problem. The damn alien shares the screen with Spalko most of the time. In fact, the first time we see her eyes start to burn the alien is there. When we see her start to turn to mist the alien is there. So to ease the transition into her eyes burning I had to add something that was the topper to the aliens merging that seems like it causes her eyes to burn, which turned out to be the alien right when it forms. It is surrounded by bright light and only seen from the chest up so its not quite so offensive. Then we see Spalko's eyes burning. 

Another big problem with the climax is that Indy does NOTHING. The last thing Indy does (besides deciding to run and failing to save Mac) is open the door with the skull. Sure in Raiders he didn't contribute to the climax either, but at least he new to shut his eyes - not to mention the badass nature of the ark opening and everything else in the context of the scene made it work. TOD he defeats Mola Ram, LC he picks the right cup. KOTCS is just a really week climax. 

I would LOVE some suggestions on the climax. Let me know. 

After I put the new line readings in I can render out the edit as avi and show it to a few of yall to get feedback.

 

I'd love to be in your test group.

At this point I don't really have any idea how to solve the fact the Indy does nothing during the climax. It's a major weakness in the film.

By the way, I had all three audio files in that rar archive.

Ryan

Laserschwert said:

jones1899 said:

Heks,

My edit is in SD.

 

I'm going back through my edit again now, but I'll check the DVD extras for those lines if no one volunteers before then... :)

Here you go:

http://fileload.us/09n7asfxbcf9

Includes "Part time!" and "Not as easy as it used to be." from the trailer and "Part time!" and "I never should've doubted you, my friend." from the extras.

 

Wow, I can hardly believe that the alternate "I never should've doubted you, my friend" doesn't sound that bad. The line reading in the actual film is bloody awful.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Good points Jonesy.

1.) I've kept the aliens and would have to say it would be nearly impossible to take them out. To be honest I don't mind them being in the film. I just hate how there was no build up to thier appearence. We see the corpse of the alien in the first few minutes of the film! Now we get a glimpse of one behind the cloth outside Spalkos tent, a brief wide shot of it lying on the table, then the "full" reveal in the climax. But even this "full" reveal is MUCH MUCH more limited than in the original. You see the crystal skeltons combine as Spalko's eyes burn with it culminating in a shot of the alien that features a lot of bright light to KINDA keep you guessing. I've cut the full body shots and close ups, etc. Also, I limited the amount of the UFO we see in the end. It's not so in your face.

2.) As far the "you're grandfather is laughing" line, now Indy says it in response to Mutt being so head strong. Works fine.

 

I hit kind of a snag or two of course considering how smoothly the rest of the edit has gone I can't complain too much.

So here are the problems:

1.) I am having trouble extracting the lines "not as easy as it used to be" and "part time" from the trailer. I would REALLY appreciate some help here if anyone wants to volunteer to pluck those out and send them to me. If no one volunteers, I'll just have to figure it out....

2.) Marion posted a great edit to the cemetery scene. I just don't know what format or quality its at or anything. If anyone wants to help with this I would really appreciate it as well. I'm anxious to get this edit out there to you guys and these things will help a ton. Again, I'll figure it out myself if need be.

Thanks.

Hey Jones,

Are you doing your edit in HD or SD?

I could be wrong, but I think I remember someone saying that the line readings from the trailer are on the DVD bonus features separate from the trailer. If so, this might make it easier for you to use them.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

So just to get a head start here, how do y'all suggest I integrate Marion's cememtery gunshot edit into my edit?

 

Thanks!

I would suggest replacing the gunshot sound with one from the OT. The video was good but the gunshot was like, "patweeeng" when we need a hearty "pakwoo" :)

Ryan

I just noticed that this movie won the Razzie this year for worst sequel.

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Not that I'm trying to bug anyone (especially now that I realize what goes into an edit) but is anyone else still planning on doing an edit at some point? Or are we putting all of our sankara stones in my inexperienced basket? :)

I still plan on doing something

Ryan

jones1899 said:

Heks. Not sure of the version. I'll have to check when I get home. So if Premiere does do this for me, will I have to restart? Any idea how to get the tracks now? And just to be clear (since I don't know much about this) this will seperate the dialog from the score from the effects, etc right?

Thanks

Hey Jones,

To be honest, I'm not sure about how it will split the audio. It might do that, it might not. I haven't gotten that far in the book :)

In terms of having to restart ... not really. I'm pretty sure you can start a new project with all the same settings except select the 5.1 audio this time and then you can import all your video sequences from your current project into the new one. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but since Laser uses Premiere (from what I recall) he might be able to verify this for you.

Take care,
Ryan

jones1899 said:

Yeah. The Darabount script was pretty good. For the most part it felt less goofy than KOTCS with a few exceptions (Ox acting like a odg and biting through Indy's ropes...really? Indy getting swallowed by a giant snake... Really Frank?) But the biplane scene would have been classic and I think the Indy/Marion dialog sparring was better handled as well. I edited a bit of that in my KOTCS edit BTW. 

So, anyway, can ANYONE help me with this audio problem? I still can't seem to get 6 audio tracks from the DVD. As soon as I do I'll be able to finish my edit.

 

Thanks.

Hey Jones,

What version of Premiere are you using? I could be wrong, but I think that Premiere Pro 2 has built-in support for 5.1 surround tracks ... you just have to select it as your master audio when you start your project. Earlier versions might have this support too but I'm not sure.

Ryan