dark_jedi said:
Then on to SW's Remix.
What remains to be done to the Star Wars mixes? I thought those were completed already.
(Not trying to sound impatient. I'm just eager to get these puppies!)
I believe the layer break position was 28 for NTSC.
In that case, they'd probably just include the 2006 Bonus discs (aka GOUT).
hairy_hen said:
Does it strike anyone else as odd that so many lines apparently existed in the first cut of the film but were then taken out for the 35mm version? If you look at Star Wars, all the dialogue differences in the mono version were recorded later, but in the case of Empire, we seem to be expected to believe that a "more complete" auditory experience existed first, and was then cut down for the later wide release. Combine that with differences in the SE not being authentic, and something just isn't adding up at all. Hence my scepticism about the whole thing . . .
It strikes me as a little odd, but not out of the realm of possibility. Many of the changes in the 35mm version seem to add clarity or change the tone of the dialog.
What do you mean by "differences in the SE not being authentic"?
hairy_hen said:
Having now heard the soundtrack, I can weigh in with my opinion. While the differences were very interesting, I still find myself disagreeing with the notion that they accurately represent the 70mm version. They probably did derive the image from the 70mm sources, going by the pics of the Emperor being already tuned in and the missing radar dish, but I can tell you right now that the audio track on this 8mm recording is definitely its own separate mix. It is not simply transferred from the 70mm soundtrack!
To me it seems likely that the 8mm was based off the 70mm, dialog and all. While the 8mm of Star Wars was perhaps an afterthought, and therefore based on the last mix (the monaural), the 8mm of Empire was probably planned ahead of time, and was based on the first mix (the 70mm). Just speculation, but it makes sense.
hairy_hen said:
How do I know this? Several reasons--the first of which is that the music is clearly mixed separately from the sound effects and dialogue. There are several instances in which the music is edited and synchronised in ways quite different from how it appears in the film itself. These edits were made specifically to accommodate the shortening of the film from its full length--they are not simply jump cuts from one shot to another, although there are numerous instances of that also. Second, the Film Score Monthly list specifically notes the absence of tracked music from the cue "Yoda and the Force" in the 70mm version for the rebel fleet at the end . . . and the 8mm soundtrack quite obviously does contain this tracked music. Moreover it accommodates the tracked music by shortening the cue Williams actually intended for the scene.
Given the length of the 8mm version, I wouldn't give much weight to the score at all. I defer to your observations, but I'd imagine major edits were required.
hairy_hen said:
It's certainly possible that some of the alternate lines, in the 8mm and/or the SE, originated in the 70mm mix; but given the obvious ways in which the 8mm is uniquely different from the others, there's no reliable way to tell which lines actually came from the 70 and which did not.
Ultimately, you are right. But where would this audio have come from? Were the 8mm transfers prepared by Lucasfilm or the 8mm company? And here's a question for our audio gurus: Were there any changes in the 8mm of Star Wars that were not in the mono mix?
hairy_hen said:
I certainly would not feel comfortable or justified inserting alternate dialogue into the film and calling it authentic--and I would say that even if the fidelity were good enough that such insertion could be done seamlessly. As it is, the sound quality does not permit it to be done without calling attention to itself.
It couldn't be called authentic, maybe "reconstructed" or "best guess". As far as the quality of the alternate audio, I recommend you check out MoveAlong's The Story of the Empire Strikes Back. Several of the alternate audio takes appear in that, and the quality seems to be better.
Yes, Evilsoupes. More please!
Bingowings said:
Still having problems matching the interior of a building with the exterior...?
Problem solved.
Very rarely do I laugh out loud when reading, but LOL!
TV's Frink said:
Damn Lucas is tearing us apart!
;-)
Too late.
Sluggo said:
Doesn't negative1 have a 70mm reel of Empire?
That's the story.
I saw the 70 mm cut of Empire in 1980, when I was eight. I have some vague memories of it.
I'm pretty sure I remember the alternate lines when the Falcon approaches Cloud City. I also remember Yoda's weird shriek. I don't remember any video differences. Make of that what you will.
FWIW, I never had the Story of Star Wars or ESB when I was a kid.
Sluggo, thanks for posting the link to the other thread. Great resource!
Hairy_hen, that's great news on the mix. Would you consider some additional pieces, like Yoda's surprised yell and Leia's lines on the Falcon? And if someone were to put together a best guess at the 70mm video, would you be willing to do the corresponding synced audio?
I came across some of the visual differences, noted by The Starkiller in the Puggo thread:
The Starkiller said:
Excellent job on this, Pugs! This is an absolute must have!
I just watched the Empire reels and something stuck out at me. I had another look and I believe I have found something quite significant. Check out these screen caps:
2006 GOUT:
Same image from the 1985 CAV Laser:
And the same image from the Super 8 reel:
Another frame from the GOUT as the Emperor fades in:
Same frame from the '85 Laser:
And the Super 8 reel:
The above shot on the Super 8 reel corresponds with reports regarding the 70mm cut of TESB. In the 70mm version, the Emperor's hologram doesn't fade in, just like the Super 8 reel.
Another example:
GOUT DVD:
Same frame from the '85 Laser:
And the same frame from the Super 8:
Again, this corresponds to the 70mm cut.
I believe this is the first confirmed visual evidence of alternate footage existing within one of the films!
Also, this section of Michael Matessino's 70mm list that appeared in Film Score Monthly also appears in the Super 8 reel:
In the final scene, there is no tracked music from "Yoda and the Force". The scene begins with the first establishing shot of the rebel fleet, then cuts inside the Falcon for Lando to say, "Luke, we're ready for take-off" (but a different take of this was used). After Luke says (voice over), "Good luck, Lando" the scene cuts to inside the rebel cruiser where Luke says, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous, " etc. Not in this version are two more establishing shots of the fleet and an interim effects shot over which Lando says, "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter we'll contact you."
Add all of this to the numerous (and already known) differences in the Super 8 audio and this becomes even more intriguing.
Fascinating!
Do we have enough material to reconstruct the 70mm version of ESB? I know there used to be a thread on this, but after 20 minutes of searching, I can’t seem to find it.
With hairy-hen’s reconstruction of the 70mm mix for Star Wars and Adywan’s ESB Theatrical Reconstruction, I’m wondering if we’re closer to being able to achieve this.
Some of the differences are listed here, but I don’t trust wookieepedia: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases
The video differences would consist of a few different wipes and a few shortened scenes (like the Medical Frigate at the end). I’m thinking most of the different audio is available through the following:
This isn’t something I can pull off myself, but I’m hoping if we can dump all the info about this in one convenient place, someone will be able to pick up all the pieces and pull this off.
Random Info to get the juices flowing:
Here’s a summary of the differences in the Puggo edition, as noted by Boba Feta:
boba feta said:
Video:
The Emporer does not fade in in his communique with Vader.
Millenium Falcon Satellite dish not visible with Luke on weather vane.Audio
- Han saying ‘watch this’ as he tries to jump to hyperspace in the asteriod field. Although the dialogue hasn’t changed different emphasis are put on certain words."
- Luke - “I don’t pick up any life readings” - Different take
- Han - “I’m going back” - Different take
- More rebels calls of ‘retreat’ when Walkers attack
- Leia "They’re getting closer [star destroyers] - Different take - she stutters it twice
- Cloud Car pilots - Different line - will confirm with actual line asap.
- Leia “I know where Luke is” is replaced by “we must go back” or something similar
- C3P0 - new line just before “I thought that hairy beast would be the end of me” - It’s something like “I’m glad we are back together”
- The frigate at the end looks decidedly different - i will have to check this.
Cloud City Security - “Any aggressive move will not be tollerated!”
Cloud Cit Security - “Permission granted to land on platform 3-2-7. Any deviattion will” - Han cuts of comms.
Leia - “Lando, hurry up, we’ve got company!” (as Lando is rescuing Luke from the weathervane)
C3P0- "Get away from there, you don’t know how to fix the hyperdrive!
Mielr talking about MoveAlong’s Story of the Empire Strikes Back:
Mielr said:
<span> </span>There are so many little bits that I appreciated, for instance-
I listened to the ESB LP so many times - I got used to the part where Leia says “we have to go back…WE HAVE TO GO BACK!” instead of the line “we have to go back…I know where Luke is” that is on the home-video versions.It was also nice to hear Luke’s alternate reading of the line “hang on back there” from the mono version of the sdtk.
MoveAlong on audio differences:
MoveAlong said:
There are even more different takes and lines than people have mentioned. When I was syncing the album audio to the 2004 footage, I had both audio tracks and could isolate them and play them together. I found it fascinating how many subtle (and not so subtle) differences there were. I even thought of having a subtitle track devoted to flagging the differences, but was so burned out I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
ChainsawAsh, that's a great nugget of info. Thanks for pulling it all together!
mrbenja, I received your PM and will send you a copy.
David, thanks for sharing the touching story. Best wishes on your recovery.
Shame on George Lucas for putting us all in this situation. How much ill will could be erased if he simply released the original versions?
Imagine if the recently discovered lost footage from Metropolis had been purposefully destroyed instead of released. That is what Lucas is doing to Star Wars, in effect.
(sorry for going a little off topic there)
mrbenja (and anyone else in the US), PM me your address and I'll try to shoot you a DVD copy in the next week or so. Just remember that Trooperman does not want this posted online.
Any secret developments on this? I still think this should be patched up and completed. The improvements in the love story alone are strong enough to carry this edit.
SkyMonkey, thanks so much! If you are successful, great things will come of this.
Jambe, that's awful. I'm sorry to hear it.
Did you have anything backed up?
Ripplin said:
I would imagine there have been lots, giventhat there are thousands upon thousands of discs out there. "Kung Pow: Enter the Fist" comes to mind, with 4 different audio tracks (original unedited audio, 'what they were really saying' audio, book on tape audio, commentary) Is that the sort of thing you meant?
I was looking more for the different versions that Zombie mentioned. I'm just wondering if our concept of what an ultimate disc would be - with multiple mixes - is something that other official DVDs have ever had. Apparently, it's been done before.
msycamore said:
That guy should definitely be contacted!
Hairy Hen is on it!
Has there ever been a release on DVD or Blu Ray with alternate audio tracks in the same language? I'm talking tracks with differences, not just 2.0 vs 5.1.
Darth Mallwalker said:
I have an audio recording of a 70mm print and "you're lucky you don't taste very good" is there. What's oddly missing is the line "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you" with no break in the music.
Anybody knows this "starmike" fellow, and can introduce him to hairy_hen ?
I was about to post about this myself. Audio from the 70mm would be invaluable.
Thanks for the clarification, Moth3r.
Are there any authentic theatrical ESB mixes?
For ANH, I'd like to see at least 3 audio options:
Anything else (like the 93 mix, recreated 5.1 mix, etc.) is gravy
For ESB, I'm not as familiar with all the available mixes. But if I had to throw something out, I'd say:
Thanks, avp!
