EddieDean

+1 DJL. I’m a fan of (aggressively) removing or recontextualising anything which retroactively does damage to the rest of the saga, which I think lightside healing does. ROTS established that the power to create life is unnatural/darkside, and by extension I’d always assume healing is - especially since we don’t see it used by any Jedi.

I like the Sequel Trilogy, a lot, but I think that it has a lot of elements which harm the wider saga, or raise tricky questions. Compare that to Rogue One, which, whether you like it or not, it fits perfectly. It doesn’t break a thing.

Ooft, here’s an idea for an ending. On the back of Outbound’s flipped movies idea, with Luke only dying near the end of the third movie, how about this:

• Kylo has his memory intervention and throws his lightsaber into the sea. End for him.
• We cut to a truncated version of the Rey/Leia training - this is happening as an epilogue. Leia sends Rey off to train, and we get that training montage cut to match the following (cut from her training with Luke and a couple of other sources) “Who am I? No-one. Someone. Light. Darkness. Life. Death. Warmth. Cold. Peace. Violence… Balance. Energy. I am the force.”
• Cut to credits.

[I’m not trying to imply she’s the living force, with that, so much as accepting that she’s accepting that the force is balance, and flows through her. “I am one with the force, the force is with me”]

Outbound, I absolutely love that! That’s exactly why I posted what I did, in hopes someone could take those thoughts further. I wonder if some other reorderings might work with that too.

For example, you could possibly put the DS2 fight as the very end fight. Kylo and Rey kill Paplatine (Rey dies, Kylo heals her - force healing is a DARK power), Kylo and Rey kill Snoke (Kylo’s true master - he’s coming to the light but still wants to rule), Luke shows Kylo the power of the light on Crait, then Kylo flees to the DS2 wreckage (for what? not sure. power?), only for Rey to fight him, Leia to distract him, Rey to nearly kill him, Rey to heal him (having learned it from him, and deciding to use a little of the dark), but then ultimately to leave him. Then Han’s memory makes him throw his blade into the sea - the end of his tale.

We also have the option of making the Snoke’s flagship hyperspace destruction into something Luke does with the force, for those who don’t like the complications that adds to SW physics.

I’d also edit the scene of Snoke clones in Palpatine’s tanks to Palpatine clones.

Also, a massive advantage of your structure like that is that we get the best character development for the side characters in the final chapter. For Poe, across the films his arc becomes: Heroic > Possibly murky past > Heroic to the point of being a bad leader > Good leader. For Finn, it’s: Flees First Order > attached to Rey > joins rebels loosely > properly commits to rebels > ‘saving what we love’.

I really think we should be going strong, not subtle. The Palpatine revelation is not subtle at all, to the extent that it’s jarring. And we have to be creating these edits for the imaginary audience who have never seen these films before and are watching them for the first time in chronological order. Having a nice, obvious, ‘something force-y happened when Snoke died’, makes it very clear to the audience that something’s still up. Similarly, the subtlety only serves people like us, who can now watch those scenes with a little less cringe, mentally nodding satisfied as we encounter the sticking plaster instead of the cut. But for me (and I appreciate this is subjective), we’re creating alternative versions as if they’re the ones that aired in the cinema, for the first-time viewer. We need to be sure these changes are noticed, not just things we can comfortably know are there.

I have them on my local machine, but someone would need to give me the means to host them and instructions.

I was thinking about radical reordering to the trilogy, and toying with the idea of having Palpatine’s return be a ‘sidequest’ of Snoke’s as part of Kylo’s training. Sort of ‘I’ve detected a rival Sith, go deal with them for me’. That way you could keep some of Palpatine without it being an unsatisfying attempt to put a capper on the Skywalker saga, and keep it framed as part of this new, different story. Does anyone have any thoughts about that?

That got me on to thinking about any other kind of radical restructures we might have available to us. And fundamentally, any such option needs to first ask the question: What arcs are sufficient to build a trilogy (or duology or whatever) around? And the problem with the sequel trilogy is, nearly nobody has a satisfying arc. To my mind you have:

REY:
A nobody gets dragged into a destiny, shows force proficiency, becomes Luke Skywalker’s hope for the future of the Jedi, develops a relationship with the conflicted Kylo Ren (who exploits her nothingness to gain her power), grows in power, tracks down and kills a half-reborn Palpatine (who she learns she was related to all along), nearly dies but is saved by Kylo, declares herself Skywalker. It’s our second-strongest arc but Palpatine comes out of nowhere and other than the revelation that she’s related to him, her defeat of him doesn’t contribute to her growth.

KYLO REN:
The legacy of Vader wishes to emulate him, gains power under Snoke, is conflicted by his killing of his father, develops a relationship with the suprisingly powerful Rey, kills Snoke to gain more power, is conflicted by his meeting fails to convince Rey to join him for evil, is conflicted by his relationship with Luke Skywalker, finds and submits to Palpatine, then turns to the light, gets nearly killed by Palpatine, then dies to kill an injured Rey.
It’s our strongest arc but Palpatine comes out of nowhere, and isn’t relevant to his character arc.

Taking the above two alone, the strongest story between them is that they meet each other, develop this awkward relationship, turn on Snoke (for different reasons), attempt to convince each other of their philosophies, then Kylo turns to the light, and they defeat Palpatine. But again, that Palpatine ending just isn’t satisfying. I feel like the Palpatine and Snoke kills should be punctual steps on their journey together, but which utimately end with them in conflict with one another. I’m trying to think of moments which could be used as the punctual final point of their story. There’s the moment when they fight and Rey appears to kill Kylo (before healing him). But that’s about where I can’t take the thought any further.

Sounds good, but then what’s the climax of the movie?

Vladius said:

EddieDean said:

Whatever peoples’ opinions on the films, I think it’s fair to say that TLJ’s approach was “Star Wars can be different than before”, whereas TROS’ was “HEY REMEMBER ALL THAT FAMILIAR STAR WARS YOU LIKE?”

I don’t think that’s fair at all. TLJ moves the Battle of Hoth to the end and brings in the Throne Room from Return of the Jedi, but the plot structure and aesthetic are all the same as ESB. It’s still TIE Fighters, AT ATs, Star Destroyers, bulbous rebel transports, leaving in the middle of training, offers of “join me.”

That’s a valid point. I do wish the ST hadn’t borrowed quite so much of the aesthetic of the originals. It’s why I was excited at the news that Rian Johnson was getting his own trilogy, because I got the feeling that he could do Star Wars without necessarily borrowing so many elements directly.

Hal 9000 said:

I wish we’d gotten a film for which ‘Balance of the Force’ would be a suitable title.

It is kinda funny how fitting the Thrawn trilogy titles would be.

To my mind TFA suits the ‘Balance of the Force’ title best, because it does two things: Suggests that Rey and Kylo Ren are the new balance, and also implies that this is what was meant by Luke ‘bringing balance to the Force’.

Yeah, I think little needs to be done to TFA either way, since it’s a very ‘safe’ film. Either TLJ or TROS can naturally spring from it - it’s just that TLJ and TROS are in conflict. Whatever peoples’ opinions on the films, I think it’s fair to say that TLJ’s approach was “Star Wars can be different than before”, whereas TROS’ was “HEY REMEMBER ALL THAT FAMILIAR STAR WARS YOU LIKE?”

Looking good Snook. Are there any ‘common’ edits (from L8wrtr’s, Hal’s, etc) that you definitely will or won’t include? You’re understandably hesitant to talk about the more aspirational stuff, but, for example, will you make the common changes of removing the diner scene and removing C3PO’s antics in the droid factory?

YES

RogueLeader, YES. There’s been a lot of chat about other elements of the sequel trilogy but TROS absolutely drops Finn’s plot off a cliff, and it needs something like this to make it relevant throughout the full trilogy. Overdubbing the stormtroopers is a great idea, and a solution for TROS also needs to be found. I wish there were some way we could have elements of the First Order fleet turn against the Final Order fleet, but that’s likely beyond our scope.

Agree with all your changes - no opinion about holochess.

FreezingTNT2 said:

I have an idea for an upcoming edit of The Last Jedi. The final paragraph in the opening crawl mentions that Snoke has sent Kylo to obtain a wayfinder that will lead him to “a dark presence” that he must destroy as part of his training mentioned at the end of The Force Awakens.

We open with Kylo raiding Mustafar and obtaining the wayfinder before heading to Exegol, where he meets Darth Sidious and learns that Snoke was his creation (Kylo doesn’t mention that he killed Snoke, since he isn’t dead yet). We don’t get the shot of the Star Destroyers rising from the ground or the part where Sidious orders Kylo to kill Rey. After Sidious tells Kylo that Rey is not who he expects, we immediately cut to the opening Resistance evactuation scene on the ground.

We don’t get the first throne room scene with Kylo and Snoke, since it will be confusing if you have the scene with Kylo and Sidious play in the beginning while having Snoke berate Kylo for his failure to get Rey. Since we don’t get the first throne room scene with Snoke and Kylo, we remove the “Where’s Han?” scene (since it will be jarring if we cut from “Where’s Han?” to Rey explaining to Luke about the current situation) and it is now replaced with the deleted scene of Luke mourning Han before we cut to Leia in hyperspace.

I feel like this is the best option of everything that’s been proposed so far regarding seeding the Emperor. If we frontload TLJ with that knowledge, then it’s way less of a suprise, it keeps Kylo’s motivations ambiguous, and its shadow will keep TLJ feeling like a tighter part of the sequel trilogy rather than a lot of people’s ‘black sheep’.

Really like your Lobot-omy idea, RogueLeader.

In terms of hinting at Palps throughout, for consideration: What about putting the Sith Wayfinder in TLJ scenes sitting on the arm of Snoke’s throne? Ren could take it as he leaves.

Streamlining the darksiders into just all Sith under Palpatine definitely makes sense, yeah.

I’m really, really into this. Loads of great ideas. I think it’s absolutely necessary to introduce Palpatine throughout the trilogy, and a Snoke redub seems very sensible. I think FreezingTNT is right that ideally you’d be able to reuse existing dialogue, though that’s likely to be difficult, in which case your proposed alien dialogue with subs would be fine.

I don’t think Kylo needs to drop the ‘Kylo’ name though, especially since nobody uses ‘Darth’ for him in this. If you keep Kylo it’ll stay closest to canon.

This is a personal one, but instead of having Rey channel all Jedi at the end, have you considered keeping Luke and Leia alive until that point, and having their deaths coincide with Rey’s dual-wield defeat of Palpatine as they give her their power? The crawl in TROS could explain that Luke had chosen to stay on Ach-To to explore a solution in the force to Palpatine, while Leia stepped up to train Rey. That way her defeat of Palpatine is our three living Jedi versus the strongest Sith, as symbolised by the pair of sabers, and also IMO gives her a better claim to the ‘Skywalker’ title. It makes her powerful enough to defeat Palps without her being a Palpatine herself, and makes it far more personal to both Rey and the audience to have our two Skywalkers help her rather than just a mob of ghosts.

In TROS, the gang refer to the wreckage of the Second Death star on the Endor moon as simply ‘The Death Star’, presumably to not complicate things. I think that adds to the list of good reasons, not least of which being that under the ST in particular we have way too many Death Stars, that we should consider having the DS2 just be a part-repaired DS1.

In ANH, I’d edit the explosion to make it look more like massive damage than full destruction, and in ROTJ, I’d remove references to it being another DS, and add references to it being simply under repair.

These are all really good ideas, and this sounds like a great start. I’d disagree with sade on TROS Palpatine being a clone (body) though. The first factor here is that cloning tech does exist in Star Wars, and the second factor is that Palps not only falls down the reactor shaft in ROTJ, but the entire station later explodes. Since Palps masterminded the Kamino cloning plan, it stands to reason that he thought about having backup bodies for his spirit to inhabit.

Octorox, agree with all of your points, and that they’re the priorities. I’m pretty sure Rey Palpatine can be cleanly excised. I don’t think your 7 (Poe/Zorri) is that vital to remove - it’s a charming bit of Poe, though doesn’t really add much and I can’t remember why she’s even a part of the story. On your 9, can we simply have Chewie die? I can’t remember how many other shots he’s in but it’d be nice to have his death be permanent, and a factor in the rest of Rey’s story and doubt.

Screw it, let’s get the conversation started, around what the core of the story should be both in theme and emotional arcs. It seems like the most coherent theme of the trilogy, that we have the most material to play with, is legacy and how much it shapes us.

Kylo’s relationship to the theme of legacy defines his emotional arc - he’s inherited a dark legacy which he struggles with and ultimately rejects.

Rey’s relationship to legacy gives us two options:
(1) She’s looking for a legacy, finds one (she’s a Palpatine), and rejects it. This is similar to Kylo’s, so far less interesting I think.
(2) She’s looking for a legacy, finds she doesn’t have one, and creates her own (with a hint of Skywalker). This I think is the far stronger option.

I think one of the biggest other issues of TROS is that force powers are something you can level up in. Palpatine can now lightning fleets - that has to go. Healing force power is something Anakin turned to the Sith for but still didn’t get - having Rey be a healer cheapens that. So does Kylo’s ability to return her from the dead(?)

I think this is cohering into a sensible approach for me - if we drop Luke dying at the end of TLJ, and we also drop Leia dying so that Rey can kill Kylo (which she heals to undo anyway), then we can have them both contribute their lives to Rey’s victory over Palpatine at the end, at the point where she ignites both lightsabers. That way we replace the silly “I am all Sith”/“I am all Jedi”, and Rey just being born with Palpatine power levels, with the heroic sacrifice of two legacy heroes to ensure Rey has what she needs to win.

God damn, I really don’t think this is salvageable. I think, for this movie and this trilogy to survive at all, we’re talking more of a trilogy edit than a single film edit. I think elements that came out of left field, like Palpatine’s return and Leia’s lightsaber, need seeding earlier. I think the jarring tonal swings between the themes and messages of each film need thorough analysis to find the most solid and coherent throughput. I think the full trilogy needs a solid review of what works, at which point a consensus can be reached on how much of it is retained for a far tighter ‘trilogy’, which could end up being only two films. It feels like a lot needs to change, to justify the Disney trilogy’s existence now.

I have a record of Smudger’s plans, Haynick. Let me dig it out and I’ll share it with you.

Red is the original episode order.
Orange is the official chronological order.
Yellow groups it into arcs.
‘Bad?’ tracks whether or not I personally think the episode is bad or bad-ish, though this tends to align with consensus.
‘Moviefied?’ tracks whether or not Smudger used all or part of an episode in a movie, and also tracks episodes he’s considered for moviefication, or episodes which are excised since they’re dependent on another episode which is moviefied (for example Zillo Beast Strikes Back is implicitly out since certain scenes from Zillo Beast were used elsewhere).
Green tracks Smudger’s complete and proposed movies, and their ordering.
Blue tracks the current and future hybrid orders, if you wanted to watch everything in chronological order with as many of Smudger’s movies as possible.

Edit: That document no longer exists, as I’ve repurposed it for my own series of edits, which you can see in my thread or PM me for access to the files. But I still maintain Smudger’s episodes if anyone’s interested.

DuracellEnergizer said:

EddieDean said:

Gigawattboy said:

If Hux had purple hair, I would have color corrected his hair too. And for the same reasons as changing Holdo’s to a more natural color. Neither are aliens so purple wouldn’t be a natural color. Something about spending their time on hair in the middle of Armageddon seems weird. It would be like Kyle Reese taking the time to dye his hair in the middle of The Terminator while he’s running for his life and living in sewers, eating rats. Something about it just doesn’t seem right. Granted, I had to watch The Last Jedi about 40 times before it started to bother me

Is pink hair not natural amongst humans in the Star Wars universe? Like I say I’ve not read much of the EU so sorry if I haven’t read the part where it says that Star Wars’ humans are limited to our blonde, brown, or Earth-natural reds.

There are plenty of humans and near-humans with exotic hair colours in the EU.

That’s interesting. I wonder why there’s so much focus on this one character then.