EddieDean

I don’t know why I’ve spent so much time thinking about this… I really don’t. But I keep coming back to this in my mind. In my latest batch of noodling, I’ve been able to clarify the mission statement of this ‘project’ that’s barely a project: It’s about reducing fatigue. We’re all feeling it, so how do we keep it fresh? Minimising cognitive load, as I’ve mentioned above, is a major one - introducing new shit as late as is relevant, and taking things back off the board early, without breaking things - and another is flow and pacing, best achieved by balancing the highs, lows, and crossovers. I really like the eight-item cadence to a lot of this.

The issues I’ve been more focused on lately is that, now we’ve had Loki 2 and Marvels 2, what’s the right balance of all the post-Endgame stuff now that we’re ramping up the multiverse. I spent a huge amount of time and thought revisiting that era, with the big challenge being wanting to put Loki and What If 1 as early as possible (as they so immediately follow from Endgame), versus needing to not overwhelm. I tried shifting Guardians to let Loki-Spidey be that first arc, I tried Loki-Wanda as the core, etc etc. But the big determining factor in my decision for the current ordering was all the multiversal stuff (Sony Spider-Man, Fox X-Men) that starts to play into the current MCU plot. In essence, if we introduce the multiverse (via Loki, What If, Sony Spidey, etc) at the same time as dealing with the more grounded post-Endgame content which also seeks to set up the new Earth-616 stakes, there’s no focus and we’re throwing so much new shit at the wall with very little coherence or payoff. Or in other words, we haven’t dealt with the fatigue problem. And then if you’re watching Sony Spidey and Fox X-Men during this period, it’s even worse.

So the focus of the post-Endgame block really must be to wipe the slate as clean as possible so that the viewer doesn’t burn out on all this New Shit.

For PHASE FOUR: AFTERMATH then, it’s as I had it before:

• Spider-Man: Far From Home deals with our fear over the next Avengers-level threat (plus Spidey, post-Tony, and Fury).
• Falcon and Winter Soldier deals with the global political state post-Endgame (plus Sam and Bucky, post-Steve and a hint of Wakanda)
• Daredevil is necessary here for Daredevil and Kingpin
• Thor: Love and Thunder deals with Asgardian refugees post-Endgame plus (plus Thor and Valkyrie)
• Hawkeye deals with post-Avengers issues and more Kingpin (plus Yelena and new Hawkeye)
• Guardians of the Galaxy: Holiday Special sets them up again
• Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings introduces some new shit (plus an update on Hulk and Captain Marvel)
• Guardians of the Galaxy: Volume 3 wraps them up and takes them off the board in a big, satisfying finale.

At this point, the decks are as clear as they can be. The focus is almost entirely on existing known characters and the state of the world post-Endgame. And because the decks are clear in 616, we’re not desperate to see those plotlines immediately continued, and can spend a bit longer diving into ‘side stories’ if we want to. Now we’ve got that much more mental space for getting into the multiverse - either directly through the MCU 616 content, or going into the actual cross-franchise multiverse instead. Forget interludes (nobody needs that much structure) here we’re just saying “view multiverse stuff in this position”, again with a goal of keeping it as digestible as possible. We also strip out What If, making that optional too.

So PHASE FIVE: MULTIVERSE can now become something much more focused:

• Loki 1 kicks it all off. It’s timeless, and ends up with a Multiverse (and Loki in unknown time).
  • What If 1 optionally goes here to introduce the concept.
  • Sony Spider-Man optionally goes here for those wanting a deep dive before NWH. (Plus Venom if you fancy.)
• Spider-Man: No Way Home is our big, exciting, fan-favourite multiverse story, featuring three Spideys and Doctor Strange. The biggest sacrifice of this ordering is having this paced a while after Far From Home, but I think it’s far more beneficial this way. Here, we open on a flashback to just after he’s been outed by Mysterio, then we assume that his legal troubles occupied perhaps at most a year - in which the previous phase occurred.Then after Daredevil steps in and clears it all up, we’re back to the present in the timeline.
  • Fox X-Men (core movies) optionally goes here. Now it’s time to see actual new characters from other worlds - not just alternate versions of our own. Let’s introduce Pietro, Xavier, and Beast at the very least - they’ll appear again this phase.
  • What If 2 optionally goes here. If we’re taking such a big break to go through Sony Spidey and Fox X-Men, this brings us back to our familiar characters and storylines (in a multiversey way).
  • Note: If we’re doing these major side-stories, we’ve now got them out of the way before the Multiverse/Kang stuff really ramps up in 616.
• Wandavision is here, as early as we can get it. Even if you ignore the Pietro tease, Wanda, Maria Rambeau, and Monica Rambeau will return this phase.
• Ant-Man and Wasp: Quantumania sits here, balanced between the two Loki seasons, and set in the middle of this phase, developing the Kang threat we’ve had since Loki 1, and giving us the update on our final group of post-Endgame characters not yet returned to.
• Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness now brings our 616 characters to other universes, starting the true crossover phase. Wanda, Doctor Strange, Maria Rambeau, Xavier, and even Captain Carter for the What If fans. We’re getting serious.
• Loki 2 next. Again, it’s timeless, but it serves to temporarily reduce the Kang threat (letting us forget him for a while) and it’s just great. And it leaves us clear to take a run at our final two items:
• Ms. Marvel has some further nice reflecting on the prior Avengers, and directly leads into-
• The Marvels, with a great focus on Carol, Kamala, and Monica, then that nice multiversal tease with Maria and Beast, and setting up Kamala looking to team up with young Hawkeye.

At this point, the multiverse stuff is active but not so loud it can’t be put down for a little while to focus back on core 616, and nothing from 616 is demanding too much attention or memory either.

The remainder of the content can sit by the wayside for now, probably giving us a phase six that looks roughly like Black Panther 2, Eternals, She-Hulk, Echo, What If 3, Agatha: Darkhold Diaries, Eyes of Wakanda, [Logan and Deadpools,] Deadpool 3. A bit of a mishmash, but again we’re left with some room to breathe here, before 2025 gives us a proper 616 escalation with Cap 4, Thunderbolts, Ironheart, Daredevil Born Again, Spidey 4, etc.

Again, I have no idea why I’ve put so much thought into this…

What about, instead of “The force literally wants us to kill Palpatine”, “The force chose us… to bring balance.” That way, the Palps creation is still ambiguous in that moment, but the Force still has a clear will for them. It also links back implicitly to the Chosen One prophecy, and why Anakin/Luke/Kylo/Rey are all somewhat “chosen ones”. And needing to kill Palpatine is also implied, but without being specific.

Interesting. What would you say are its strengths?

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Looking forward to #3!

Well folks, thanks to g00b’s efforts and explay’s support, I’m so happy to say that this show’s going to have subtitles soon. First few episodes have been excellent so far.

By g00b’s suggestion we’re going to put the name of each speaker in the subtitles, which REALLY helps with identifying the clones, especially early on. I can’t wait!

V4 is very solid, for what it’s worth.

These sound really great. While I wait for this to download, I’ll ask: Did you decide to trim the ending in the couple of ways I suggested? I posted a test which skipped the false Mando-Greef conflict, and another which made Mando’s head injury much more minor to allow the ending conflict to progress quicker. Worked for me, but it’s cool if you didn’t!

RogueLeader, Neverargreat, there’s definitely merit there. As you say, it turns the ST’s weakness into a strength, or at least something deliberate. Spitballing:

If Palpatine represents (or champions) the stagnancy of this storyline via the repetition of plot points and the stagnancy of the Jedi/Republic, the meta-goal of Rey and Luke should be fairly explicitly to throw him off SO THAT something new can come after. Metatextually a new plot for the franchise, but in-universe a new state of affairs. And Kylo should be that exposition, catalyst for change, etc etc.

So in the real world: Sequel trilogy is repetitive and uninspired, the solution is to conclude it in a way that leaves us with a fertile franchise after ready for something new.

And in-universe: Palpatine is forcing a stagnant cycle for selfish reasons, Kylo at first wants to leave the cycle, Rey (with help/inspiration from Kylo/Luke/Leia) finds the way to end the cycle and bring in a new state of affairs for the galaxy.

I think then you’d need to exposit HOW this helps Palpatine. A stagnant state of affairs where he is in control of everything? Constant conflict (Star Wars) forcing the jedi into distraction away from exploring the deeper facets of the force? Keeping the numbers of Jedi and Sith low giving him more concentration of Force in potential vessels? Forcing the galaxy into a cycle is his view of Order?

Kylo’s motive of “I’ve been manipulated my whole life, I’m out” is cool. And Rey can be torn between that and duty, ultimately being told by Luke that she needs to end the cycle. The more wise force ghosts showing up at the end to help achieve that works best too.

And Kylo’s sacrifice could be better set up with the notion that they’re (via Palpatine) part of the cycle, and one of them needs to die to end it.

Huzzah! NFB deserves most of the credit there!

Do you guys want to start a private chat so we can coordinate? I have the time to oversee, just not so much to directly do!

That’d be incredible if possible!

It would be great for many, I know, but it’s a massive piece of work I just don’t have time for right now, sorry. I’d love to, and I’d certainly add them if anyone else were able to produce them, but I don’t have the capacity for it at the moment.

That’s elegant!

Really great. This is super viable.

I feel like that’s covered well enough by his following line, perhaps with a tweak:

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? Some things are stronger than blood.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t overcome Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi, and the light. Palpatine is beyond redemption - he must be destroyed. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

(Though I don’t know if any of this is said onscreen by Luke, in which case this may be a non-starter. Still, I think it’s clear enough from the second part that he’s directing her to do that.)

Fair! Apologies for the sidetrack!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I like that new line. Anything that makes things more vague is fine by me.

Sorry, which one are you referencing here?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

But we aren’t necessarily talking about Rey’s blood specifically, is the thing. I’m shifting the meaning of the lesson to be that, for all the power in the Skywalker bloodline and Rey’s, it was all for naught because their spirits weren’t strong enough to overcome the dark inclinations of the Force. Leia saw somebody who would have the spirit to do such a thing.

I’m comfortable with that, I guess I’m just cautious about having Luke explicitly claim ‘The Force made us, to destory him’ because it’s explicit about the Force being behind them, and explicit about its will. I don’t think we should say onscreen ‘The Force wants Palpatine dead’.

It’s also cool if what Luke tells Rey to do is what she tells Palpatine (“I’ve come to end you”). Then Palpatine nonchalantly is like - “Yeah, that’s what I always wanted.” It immediately dispels the pep talk that he gave her, and returns the stakes to the scene.

That’s also a good call. It kind of ends up that everyone’s a little wrong and a little right - Kylo, Rey, and Luke, and the solution comes from them all.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I’m glad you recognize the comedy and irony in it as well. I touched on that quite a while ago on this page. I love the idea that Palpatine thought he has such a mastery of the Force that he could influence its own creations to serve his own will. That didn’t work out well for him the first time, yet he tries it again! Really funny stuff.

Yeah. Perhaps Palpatine would have won if he’d only realised that Rey/Kylo were his joint heir, and sat them on a double-width throne together. Perhaps again it’s the Will of the Force getting one over on Palpatine - it knows the Sith are insistent on one master/one apprentice, so it made one that is two so the Sith would never think to permit the coexistence of both, and set up a situation where his spirit wouldn’t be able to inhabit the heir since it’s, y’know, two bodies.

I think it’s generally best to leave the Will of the Force open to interpretation, and the idea of ‘destiny’ as it pertains to Rey ambiguous as to whether it’s a destiny from Palpatine or the Force directly.

Back on Luke, perhaps we can have it both ways elegantly again:
“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? Did you forget my own father was Darth Vader?” (said in an almost cheeky, lightly teasing tone)
-or-
“Because you’re a Palpatine? You’re talking to the son of Vader [right now].” (said with amusement)
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

This way Luke’s still referencing his own explicit dark bloodline, with the link from Vader to Palpatine left to the viewer’s memory. And it’s still relevant - he’s showing the best person to advise on ‘my blood is scary’.

Glad you like it. It’s kind of like Palpatine’s trying to pick his own ‘Chosen One’ as he did before, this time from two candidates, not realising that they’re one together, and it’s the Rey-Kylo ‘unit’ that can defeat him (and ultimately, actually, empower him, because Dyads of your own creations are delicious). Once again, Palpatine’s the master manipulator but the Will of the Force has the last laugh.

Plus, Kylo’s right about Rey, and right about what they can achieve. But if they’re both the same yinyang - Kylo with light in his dark, and Rey with dark in her light (or the other way around), it leaves room for them to achieve some kind of viable balance. It also adds a bit more jeopardy to Rey’s final fight - facing Palpatine alone (a very Luke thing to do) isn’t going to work here - but then Kylo shows up after all, his spirit more pure. And sure, Rey and the Jedi destroy Palpatine (great light destroys great dark), but Kylo was still a key part of that process.

I feel, on this point, that we have to pick a side between Palpatine creating Rey/Kylo and the Force creating them. In the canon, the Force is a cosmic power with a will, but darksiders are seen as wielding the Force for selfish ends in spite of that will. So Palpatine manipulating the Force to create life is a very darksider thing to do.

If we look at Anakin’s story, clearly the Jedi had a Chosen One prophecy that the force might create some super-Jedi to bring balance, but we know from implication/word of Lucas that Palpatine created Anakin. It’s a reasonable interpretation to assume Palps did that not just for an heir/apprentice, but because it would set up his creation to appear as the Chosen One and trick the Jedi as it did. And perhaps he still is the Chosen One - the Mortis episodes of TCW (made by Lucas’ choice) do make that more explicit, and he does kinda bring balance. But I think that case is more unique to specifically Anakin/Vader, and may have been what the Chosen One prophecy meant all along - Will of the Force + Palpatine manipulation = haha, still Will of the Force.

But we don’t, in canon, have any such implication of any prophecy about Rey. In the current canon she’s a Force Awakened daughter of Palpatine’s non-force-sensitive hybrid clone son, who becomes one of a Dyad of ‘one light/one dark’ with Kylo Ren. And replacing some of that with ‘Force Awakened creation of Palpatine’ I don’t think brings us any closer to a Chosen One.

We could, I suppose, argue that the Rey/Kylo Dyad is a kind of ‘Chosen One’ together (thouch I’d avoid using the words ‘Chosen One’), and imply that Rey/Kylo are essentially a two-person Vader, a manipulated creation of Palpatine that, nevertheless, is going to enact the will of the force to bring balance. And that’s kind of cool - if probably far too convoluted to put onscreen.

But we could lean into that idea more elegantly:

“Rey, I learned the rest of our story.”
“Tell me.”
"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both were once his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”
"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so that the strongest of us can inherit the throne. But he doesn’t realise that we are one, Rey… Bonded in spirit by the raw power of the Force. We are strong enough to end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

Ah, OK. I think that’s just fine. I wouldn’t replace ‘he wanted her alive’, since he did, and evidently either the Ochi thing was going to work out for him or the Force Awakening would expose her. That’s plenty - Ochi can just be a hunter as he currently is, who tried but failed to find Rey (and had a key to Palpatine). I wouldn’t worry about the ship also being seen in TFA - it’s so brief, it barely matters, and can be handwaved away as another ship so easily if people care.

Oh and also, what did you think of this little change:

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? His power runs in my bloodline too.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

I think that just fits perfectly with what surrounds it, enhances Kylo’s relevance (which also works with your two-hosts-must-fight intent), and ties into both Leia’s rejection and Palpatine’s later recalling that the throne is “in her blood”.

That works. With this as it stands, what’s the current status of the storyline around Ochi’s ship? Are we using what’s originally in the film, or making any changes there? I haven’t kept up with Ochi/D-O discourse, but it definitely feels right that it’s not mentioned in any of the conversations above.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t think Hal will be particularly interested in using AI voices to this extent for his personal projects. Perhaps at least until we see how good it sounds now 😉

Ah, apologies all if that’s the case, I must have missed him making that call! I had the impression this was all for a possible v5.