But the movies don’t imply she’s got a struggle about the dark, it’s only her origins and her use of lightning that we see. There’s nothing onscreen about her genuinely having a tendency towards evil deeds, she only ever acts to help her friends. She has dark power, and sometimes takes the easy (powerful) path, but only ever still for good. And she sees herself on the throne, but that’s not a temptation for her, because she says she doesn’t want it, and at no point do we think she intends to be some dark ruler from it. She has a grievance against Palpatine specifically (he killed her parents indirectly) but again that’s not something that’s going to bubble over into full evil, like Anakin slaughtering tuskens.

It’s enough that she’s facing Palpatine because he’s a huge threat to the galaxy and her friends, and confused and perhaps emotionally compromised by visions of the throne. Her challenge there is showing that she’s not a worthless scavenger girl - she’s a Jedi.

And I agree that that’s a less powerful conclusion than her storyline deserved, certainly less powerful than the temptation of Luke. But even with modified dialogue I don’t think we have enough onscreen performance to imply that there’s a genuine temptation to evil here.

I think we might be overcomplicating it a little. Let’s take the whole concept in a logical order:

There’s no true justification between Rey’s parents selling her for drinking money, and them loving her so much when they left her on Jakku to protect her. Her memory of them traumatically leaving her on Jakku is seen onscreen, as is the ‘corrected’ one where they showed their love for her first. Since them leaving her was so traumatic, and she was young, I think it’s acceptable that she misremembered that. But, them ‘selling her for drinking money’ is said by Kylo when he’s trying to manipulate her, so can be an exaggeration. I think the cleanest solution is to preserve both the knowledge Rey shows she has in TLJ (that they were junk trader nobodies and aren’t coming back) and that they likely died forgotten on Jakku, but they did love her (parents love their kids) and that Klyo’s correcting that information for her here. That whole concept, then, only needs to be further solved by giving the reason for them wanting to hide Rey.

Then, consider the larger issue that we’re trying to solve here, which I think we have a consensus on being the fact that Rey Palpatine in the original version of TROS requires her father to be a nobody-Palpatine, which really doesn’t work. And as JJB pointed out earlier, having Rey be a spiritual Palpatine rather than a biological Palpatine (by either cloning or using the force to create life) solves that.

I think there’s value to the clone angle, in that it helps explain Palpatine’s return and Snoke, BUT it has two issues. Firstly, that both of those are more easily explained by just explicitly having at least one line somewhere in the film about ‘cloning’ or ‘experiments’, which TROS v4.0 already does elsewhere, making it unnecessary here. And secondly, and more importantly, having Rey be a direct clone of Palpatine makes her arguably MORE Palpatine than less, even more Palpatine than being his offspring. And we’re trying to loosen that link a little - ‘spiritual Palpatine’ still leaves the most wiggle room and ‘certain point of view’.

So, back to the idea of Rey being a spiritual Palpatine. Again, I think JJB’s earlier suggestion of Rey being another case of someone ‘used the force to create life’ is the right move. Palpatine told Anakin that very overtly in ROTS, and we know Anakin was a virgin birth, so even if George’s intention was only implied onscreen, it’s clear enough that this is a valid mechanism established in the canon. So, in our new dialogue we could arguably just call back to ‘using the force to create life’ and have her parents (nobodies) influenced by Palpatine into birthing Rey. That, I think, needs to be the core of how we solve the two major conflicts, and also explains why her parents sought her protection - and anything beyond that is a bonus.

But onto that bonus. This is the area I think we’re overcomplicating, by adding too many wrinkles. The dialogue shouldn’t be too expository, nor add too many new angles. Remember, Kylo’s mainly trying to communicate ‘You’re powerful and I needed to confirm that, here’s the new perspective on your identity, I want us to work together to destroy Palpatine’. A large infodump risks muddying the waters here, so I’d strongly advocate for a light touch.

Consider: This is the end of a trilogy of trilogies, an episode designed to close down a lot of what came before. And Disney know there’s a huge audience sentiment toward something truly new, away from the Skywalker family mythology - they are unlikely to keep retreading this ground. So our meta-focus should be in using established canon to conclude this phase as cleanly as possible - to fix the inconsistencies, justify the existing choices, and wrap up outstanding arcs - not to introduce new interpretations and perspectives that overhang characters and concepts beyond this movie. This is the last suprising revelation that uses established context to carry us to the end of this era, so that new ideas can follow.

So, with the priority of solving those problems whilst keeping the dialogue in line with Kylo’s priorities and our need for elegance, I think acknowledgment of Vader being a Palpatine-creation is the most beneficial, but with a light touch only. As we’ve discussed, making both Rey and the Skywalker line spiritual-Palpatines gives us a load of great implications, including why Leia turned from the Jedi, a better explanation for the Dyad bond, and better later justification for Rey claiming the Skywalker name. And, in the moment, it serves Kylo’s dialogue as a further reason for the two of them to ally and see eye-to-eye, and permits the shades of grey between them.

BUT, I think we can avoid a lot of other plot threads. Getting too detailed about things like there being a ‘Skywalker bloodline’ and a ‘Palpatine bloodline’ I think is overkill, especially since new canon won’t reference that. Bear in mind also that Kylo’s information comes directly from Palpatine, who is both a potentially unreliable source of information, and not one to infodump beyond what’s necessary. And adding in the wrinkle of the (lightside) force being involved in creating the Skywalkers (or freeing their line from Palpatine), or getting into any detail whatsoever about the Chosen One prophecy, I think is also a step too complicated, and another thing that future canon won’t acknowledge. I don’t think we need to explain why Palpatine chose Rey’s mother (just like we don’t know why Shmi was chosen), or how Ochi plays into things beyond his existing appearance in TROS. I don’t think we even need to explain why Ochi’s ship appears twice - that could just be another of the same model (we also see one in Andor).

As minor additions, I think it’s elegant and ‘closing’ to explain the Dyad as ‘raw power’ as that’ll pay off later, and elegant to use the Lor San Tekka/Luke angle to justify the choice of Jakku.

So, in summary, I’d say all we need to convey is:

• Your parents were nobodies, Palpatine used the force to create life in your mother, they fled towards Luke to protect you, they didn’t give you up and were killed.
• That’s the source of your (dark) power, why Palpatine sees you as his heir, and why you dream of the throne.
• Due to our shared origins, we are powerful together, and understand each other uniquely. Palpatine is a monster, we have a grievance against him, and we should defeat him together.

Later dialogue covers the revelation that Palpatine wants to ritually inhabit these hosts (and the viewer can infer about the Vader bloodline if they want), and that he’s suprised he can consume the Dyad power, so these also don’t need to be covered here.

As final thoughts, aligned with this I’d use two other places to modify the dialogue to best support this. Firstly, by having Leia give up her training out of fear of her inner dark, as we’ve discussed. And secondly, when Rey visits Luke, I’d have him acknowledge she’s ‘a Palpatine’, but confirm that Vader (“my own father”?) was created by Palpatine too. That confirms what Kylo’s told her, but gives her hope too (Luke overcame his origins), continuing to line up her taking the Skywalker name cleanly.

All four movies are completely complete!

Feel free to PM for requests now!

Final movie titles are ‘Convergence’, ‘Declaration’, ‘Prisoners’, and ‘Sacrifice’.

I’m super pleased with the quality of these final (v2.0) versions. NFBisms deserves a huge amount of credit here. He produced over 20 audio transitions, including some covering multiple scenes. He also contributed a major structural piece to movie 4, and an even larger piece of work throughout movie 3, reordering and then fully rescoring whole sections. The last 5% of polish has taken the most work, and I couldn’t have done this without him. His efforts were huge and can’t be understated - thanks so much!

I think we get to have it both ways anyway, since our source of information is Palpatine. So it could be a lie even without us having to spell that out. And Luke or Leia being aware of their inner darkness as Vader can be true whether or not they actively learned that Palpatine was behind Vader (or if that’s true).

Agreed on all points. I really think this just works.

Yeah, that was delightful. I don’t think it’s ‘recommended’ since it’s very much an alternative to existing scenes, but I’ll include links to it as an optional bonus just for fun.

I definitely feel like there’re two strong but mutually exclusive approaches here.

What was once the two versions we called the ‘Rey Palpatine’ version and the ‘Rey Nobody’ version, I think are now better described as the ‘Living with TROS as best we can’ version and the ‘Not contradicting TLJ’ version.

Not a criticism of anyone at all - but perhaps it’s best to recognise that what we’re trying to do with this particular onscreen revelation is fix an issue which has MANY competing priorities orbiting it, and that categorising our proposals as ‘TLJ-led’ or ‘TROS-led’ might be a sensible way to manage this burst of effort.

Personally, I massively prefer TLJ as a film, but I don’t think canon will escape the revelations in TROS, so for me I’ll always prefer a TROS-led edit here, i.e., Rey is a Palpatine from a certain point of view (amongst other revelations from that movie). To me, JJB’s recent version feels the closest alignment with that priority.

The idea of Rey being lied to or corrupted by Palpatine, or of revealing The Force and Palpatine as opposite creators of bloodlines, to better preserve the truths as revealed in TLJ, I believe should be recognised as TLJ-led suggestions.

Both valid, of course, but I think it’s worth viewing this way!

I think we’re getting super close with this.

I don’t think the line “As with Vader, he plotted to kill those you loved” is necessary, as it adds another wrinkle that’s not really relevant to the story being told here, or at best is inferable. Something more useful could sit here

Still, great work.

Even the worst nobodies of parents still don’t want their kids killed!

Excellently, thanks! Thanks to NFB and RogueLeader, we’re close to a release of a higher quality than I could have put out originally.

1 & 2 are properly smooth now, only needing re-rendering, 3 is vastly improved and just needs some minor addition of score, and 4 is just being mulled over a little further. Full release soonish.

As a cheeky bonus, this actually gives an explanation why Palpatine didn’t die the first time, using something like Horcrux logic!

Love all of that.

I’d perhaps change “destined for evil” to “destined for power”, since explicitly identifying as powerful is more what the sith do than call themselves evil.

“Why did the Emperor come for me?”

“Because none of his clones could survive hosting his spirit. So like Vader before you, he influenced the force to create life. You… are Palpatine’s heir.”

"He sees you as a true Palpatine, created to inherit the throne of the Sith. But what he doesn’t know is that we’ve become a dyad in the Force, Rey… two, linked by the raw power our families share. We can end him and the Sith, and create something new, together…”

This also works to convey the truths that Palpatine would have told Kylo Ren (both to seduce him and to get him to bring Rey to him), whilst retaining the parts of the plan that Palpatine would have kept secret (spirit transferrence into a host) that he’d act on when he had Rey available.

I think this can be simplified a little further. Rather than explicitly two bloodlines - Skywalkers and ‘Palpatines’ - I think it’s best if they’re essentially one and the same, simply two attempts at the whole ‘manipulate the midichlorians to create life’ thing (not that we’d use the M-word), both of which make powerful potential hosts, rich in the Force. Technically, by this interpretation, Anakin is a ‘Palpatine’ (in the loosest sense of the term), and Rey by the same token, but what we see in TRoS is Luke and Leia (and this plotline) essentially loosely reinterpreting ‘Skywalker’ to mean ‘a Palpatine creation who rose above it’.

This is well supported by the actual themes of the original TRoS, with Rey declaring herself Skywalker (with Luke and Leia’s approval). They’re saying “sure, be a Skywalker”, but here it’s loosely implicitly “like us you’re Palpatine offspring in the light, so the Skywalker name suits you too”.

I’m not saying we should make any of that explicit in the text, but that we should maybe do away with the “bloodline” angle and simply refer to Vader (and his heirs) and Rey, as all simply products of Palpatine’s will - with Vader as his first attempt and Rey as his (perfected if you like) second. So technically Luke and Leia are ‘Palpatines’ too by this interpretation, albeit in a way we wouldn’t make explicit.

And sure, I could go either way on the “bring me Rey” angle rather than needing her killed. You make fair points.

Haha, it even makes her more truly a Skywalker too! What is a Skywalker but a Palpatine heir who rose above it?

Nev, I’m glad you pointed out about Leia, I’d thought that and wanted to emphasise it too, but then forgot. It’s a great reason for why she gave up her training.

And, as you say JJB, it also helps deal with one of the common issues people have with Luke in TLJ. It even explains his hesitance to train her, and his shock when she went “straight to the dark”.

As Nev says, it’s built on something inexplicit in the movies- but something intended by Lucas and one of those things that’s included in the novelisations and widely known to be canon, to the degree that it’s likely enough to reappear in new canon works too. Besides, why not reinforce it here too, giving the original idea the explicit references it deserves?

We don’t even need the chosen one prophecy here- Palpatine’s involvement in Anakin’s birth was not directly related to the chosen one thing anyway, it’s just that some Jedi thoight he was. I really like the idea that Palpatine had these really watertight plans, but that irony or the Force kept freeing his creations from their dark origin.

Agreed, but we’ve seen him want to kill her (via Snoke/Kylo) in movies prior. I think it’s acceptable to imply he wanted one of Kylo and Rey to kill the other to prove their worthiness. I think it’s worth it for how much it adds to their collective myth with such compatibility with existing canon. If Kylo is also apparently worthy then it also explains why the Dyad is so powerful to him- it’s the power of both bloodlines, an unexpected best possible outcome.

As an aside, maybe we want to use other dialogue to imply that all of his Snoke/clone experiments were only ever intended to be temporary hosts at best.

This would even be compatible with him wanting Luke to strike him down in RotJ- his spirit could pass to a child of either bloodline, making the ending of RotJ an apparent Win-Win for him, failing only because he wasn’t truly struck down, but chucked away by Vader out of love for Luke, not anger at Palpatine.

It also makes sense that he didn’t inhabit Vader, since he was unexpectedly crippled at Mustafar. Any of these four (Vader, Luke, Kylo, Rey) could have been apprentices until they became hosts- also having Palpatine cheat the rule of two (the apprentice must supplant the master) by making a bloodline that he’d take over in continued life even if they followed that doctrine.

And if we want to retain Palpatine wanting to kill Rey (which fits better with TFA/TLJ):

“You know why the Emperor wanted to kill you. I’ll come tell you.”

“Why did the Emperor want to kill me?”

“Because he only needed one vessel from the two dark bloodlines he sired. Vader’s, or the one he perfected with you. You… are Palpatine’s heir.”

"We were created to inherit the legacy of the Sith. Skywalker and Palpatine. But what he doesn’t know is that we’ve become a dyad in the Force, Rey… two, linked by raw power. We can end him and the Sith, and create something new, together…”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I do.”

I’ve just posted above in a way I think gives you both options. (We don’t need to say they cared for her- they were her parents even if she wasn’t planned for, and their actions in the flashes and regular story convey that well enough.)

“I’d never lie to you… your parents were no one… junk traders burdened with a child they never planned for.”

“Don’t!”

“Did you know that Vader’s mother was a nobody, too?"

“I don’t want this!”

“Palpatine chose you."

“No!”

“Your parents fled across the galaxy. He hunted them.”

What better than a nobody to use to create his heir? It’s what he did with Shmi - perfectly using existing canon to marry Rey Palpatine with Rey’s-Parents-Nobody

The only thing I might consider adding, is making it clear he had other experiments (implicitly including the Palpatine clone he now inhabits), but that Rey or Kylo still would be better vessels. I’d also include an angle about Palpatine wanting to kill her if he couldn’t possess her - but I think this core principle is the right angle.

YES! It leaves room for other Palpatine experiments/clones but it uses his known tool, and works for all the reasons you chose it. It’s also compatible with the chosen one prophecy without using that term. Really excellent.