I got you, you valid human being ❤️
I got you, you valid human being ❤️
Goddamn, I hate getting preachy, it’s not fun for anyone. But I know that being a woman or other non straight white cis male, and trying to just enjoy fun things, and having to see oppressive trash like this so frequently must be way more fucking invalidating and frustrating. Just fuck off and let us enjoy thinking about magic laser knights and pew pew spaceships together.
Hal, your argument’s made in perfectly good faith, so please take this the same. The fact that Imperial/FO troops have historically been primarily male and implicitly (or explicitly only in the EU) prejudiced organisations is valid. Just as a valid opposition to Holdo having purple hair, is that there was an observed soft rule in early SW design that Imperials would use unnatural colours and rebels would use natural ones.
But there’s still a couple of issues. Firstly but least importantly, that it’s not a hard rule that Disney are breaking by having female roles like this, because it hasn’t been made explicit in core media that these organisations have these prejudices. And it’s not like even with an established rule, that a writer couldn’t introduce the change with a throwaway line. (Especially in Star Wars… If Palpatine can “somehow” return, the First Order can “somehow” have included more women in its ranks.)
But mostly, it’s that adherence to canon or implicit soft rules isn’t the motivation of that poster and other similar posters. I’ll need to make generalised assumptions about people now, but it feels very safe to say that quotes like “Kathleen Kennedy mandated…” or “whammen whammen whammen” or “admiral gender studies” indicate that such posters are formally or informally a part of the broader movement which seeks to continue to suppress accurate and equal female representation. Or, to put it more succinctly, it’s not about Star Wars at all, it’s about women.
And this is where we get subjective, but the world needs better female representation. It needs women growing up to believe they are valid, and strong, and deserving of all the opportunities and privileges and securities men have. It needs men to accept, support, and celebrate that. I’m not going to justify that statement because nobody wants a feminist rant right now, but my point here is that, while your argument about canon is valid, the real-world gain of representation is far greater than the minor impact on inexplicit soft canon. So I think that needs to be the determining factor here - it’s certainly why I personally didn’t consider the option for my poll. End of main response.
As an aside, I wish I could credit Disney for this, but again, motivation is key. I believe that Kathleen Kennedy / other writers / Disney are moving towards being progressive, but I believe they’re capitalist first. KK/OW/D may have minor progressive leanings (I believe KK takes genuine pride in representation of diversity), but I believe that the real reason that Disney and other large companies are shifting progressive is because that’s the way the markets are shifting right now. It’s only relatively recently that entertainment media, especially movies, have realised that women can be just as passionate and engaged (and marketable) fans as men, once the representation is there. For example, I love that Forces of Destiny has a strong female focus, because that representation is still the greater good, but I know that behind the scenes for Disney it’s an investment in growing their market share.
I believe this is why there is broad backlash from typical anti-progressive communities too - for those for whom a progressive world is seen as a threat, they see this change in representation and they want to create a backlash, because backlash can hit these companies in their bottom line - they’re speaking in capitalism, because that’s what these companies respond to. This is also why I think it’s likely that Disney would never lean too hard into explicitly showing “the baddies” as particularly prejudiced - because being told “racism is what baddies do”, or “sexism is what baddies do”, or similar, is still something that risks a money-damaging public backlash from the kind of people who oppose this culture shift.
Interesting poll! I’m sorry I missed out on it. Just curious, are you considering an option of undoing some of the female first order trooper voices/screams and making them male? I have a feeling Kathleen Kennedy sat there in the editing room and said, “Make that one a whammen, whammen, whammen here, put a whammen there, whammen soldier, whammen soldier, wabbit season, wabbit season!” Whoops!
I did not, and will not, consider asking about whether women should have the roles they have in this movie, or any other Star Wars movie, or for any other subject about which I might make a poll in my life. Decreasing the prominence of roles which represent the breadth and potential of female existence is not something I think is necessary or valid or, frankly, human. Thank you for your interest in the poll, I’m sorry to have missed your input. I’m afraid you’ll have to look elsewhere for help pursuing that idea, and insofar as I can make the request of you, I’d appreciate if you kept such lines of thought out of this thread.
These clips are amazing.
Love the lightsaber discussion on the balcony, though I struggle to comprehend the first line.
Also, the slightly awkward “You’re beautiful because I’m so in love with you” scene could be cut to remove some clumsiness:
Anakin: “You’re so beautiful”
Padme: “So love has blinded you?”
Anakin: [Smiles with the wide, humorous smile and dismissive head shake before he originally says “No, no, it’s because I’m so in love with you”, but instead we just cut to-]
Padme: “It’s probably true.”
Anakin: [Gives the chuckle he gives before he originally says “That’s not exactly what I meant”]
This way it’s a genuine moment from Anakin, followed by a flirtatious but affectionate tease from Padme, which Anakin responds to with effectively “well you got me there!”
Yeah, that is worth thinking about. Nice one!
I’m not planning another poll ☺️
Good point about the Rashomon shots. Yeah, TFA could work, maybe she’s always dreamed of these people, this family.
Here’s another thought, kind of unrelated to the above. I didn’t ask in my poll about the Leia and Luke training flashback. Traditionally Star Wars hasn’t had flashbacks, only visions, yet if anyone deserves it it’s Leia. But I was thinking of a better home for it - how about when she’s in space in TLJ, passed out, just as her fingers start to twitch?
That’s fair, actually. Vader was responsible for masses of death and suffering, and he got to turn into a Jedi ghost at the end, so there’s no reason Kylo shouldn’t be considered ‘fully redeemed’. Still, I don’t think exile takes away from that.
He’d go into Exile because he’s turned from his dark path, and survived, yet he knows the galaxy can’t forgive him for the terrible things he’s done. And what better place for the exile of a penitent man than the planet where his grandfather was enslaved? And what better place for a Ben to go into exile than a Tattooine, like the man he’s named after?
Having Palpatine have no plan for Rey would be nice because it would show him falling into the same trap the Jedi are guilty of, letting their arrogance and belief in their own power prevent them from seeing what is on the horizon.
Yeah, exactly. The Jedi didn’t see the darkness before them, and Palpatine never saw the light. He had so many plans and contingencies and forethought, he was just waiting on the death of Luke fucking Skywalker. But he couldn’t predict/perceive that thirty years into the future, a new lightside warrior would rise, backed by the Skywalker legacy. (Possibly this also implies, that he also couldn’t predict force ghosts). This particular combination of Rey backed by his great rivals is his Thermal Exhaust Port, the one thing he didn’t account for as a weakness.
Leia dying on Naboo is a great idea, as it allows her to end where her mother started. Make this movie rhyme with the others as much as possible. It is the last after all.
And any version that is meant to include Padme surviving RotS and dying while Leia is a young child, should absolutely consider giving Leia the pendent.
Yeah at first I was much more into Pasaana as Jedha than Ajan Kloss as Naboo, but I’ve really fallen for this now. It’s not only Padme’s home, but Palpatine’s too. And having Leia die here, in the act of redeeming her son, feels super right. I’d love for her to be buried with the pendant that her father made for her mother when he was just a boy.
Ben in exile is a great idea, and one that could probably be executed, but without dialogue between him and Rey where he says something like "I’m staying here. It is my penance.’ It could be quite a head scratcher.
I imagined this one something like:
[Rey looks to her right, to see Kylo standing quietly in the distance, watching. Maybe he nods. We take a beat.]
[Leia and Luke’s ghosts appear, one to either side of Kylo. They’ll watch over him, and all three implicitly support Rey too.]
[Back to her new family on the ship, off to other adventures]
Eddie, since you poured so much time into this, were there certain things you would like to discuss based off the analysis. Honestly we could talk about the Finn/Poe ideas on the main TROS thread.
I’d like people to talk about whatever springs out to them as worthy of discussion, ideally.
For me personally it’s the stuff in bold which I think is new, or particularly interesting. But to pick a couple:
Is there a way that we can see all of the options for the questions? I ask only because many of the questions look identical due to them being cut off.
Not easily. However I’ve combed through every one of them and called out any which add anything substantial or novel that the higher voted items didn’t include. Essentially you could ignore every image and just read my bullets, and you’d still get 99% of the detail of the results.
Gay people exist, so I wouldn’t want to pretend they don’t.
This is one subject I would massively prefer to exclude from discussion in this thread, please, insofar as I can make that request.
Edit: Though by all means, please feel free to consider options for Finn/Poe romance here.
I’m enjoying this sincere real-name signing. Thanks for all you’ve done Holly, and I hope to have your continued input here! Hopefully you’ll be able to replace your machine soon enough.
- Voiceover is cut from some of her lines on TLJ during her training: “Who am I? Violence. Peace. Cold. Warmth. Death. Life. Dark. Light. I am balance.”
- Falcon shoots off into hyperspace against the twin suns.
On first glance I misread this as “I am hyperspace”.
“Who am I? Violence. Peace. Cold. Warmth. Death. Life. Dark. Light. I am hyperspace.”
[Rey shoots off into space using the hyperspace effect, leaving the force ghosts and her friends on the Falcon bewildered]
[Cut to credits]
Firstly, huge thanks to everyone who participated in the survey! We got way more responses than I expected, so thanks for giving us such a fertile dataset from which to pull analysis. Responses started to plateau in the high 50s about 48 hours in, then it hit the auspicious number of 66 responses, so I knew I had to stop there.
Thank you all so much for your input. The questions took about two hours to write, and this analysis took about five hours to complete, and it was great fun the whole time. You’re a super community! ❤️
Use (**) before and after your text if you want to make bold text to highlight what you’re talking about.
I’ve closed the poll because it hit the portentious number of 66 responses. (It had plateaued anyway.) Tomorrow I will execute my analysis.
I like the ‘Rey as balance’ theme, which I feel like the trilogy was kind of setting up, then didn’t exactly deliver on.
What if we end with a voiceover, as follows:
Nope, that one’s a tougher one. The other 50/50 question is whether or not it’s too much to have Palatine lightning a fleet.
The kiss is one of them, yep! Straight down the middle.
Results preview: After 64 responses, two questions have exactly a 50/50 split! Try to guess which!
Oh, that’s fantastic news that you’re considering those changes! I wish I could help, but absolutely best of luck to you!
Here’s a good shot of the Hyperdrive room in the finale of The Clone Wars: https://ibb.co/7C86T7F
Knight of Kalee said:
It could have been so much better if Pasaana was Jedha fromt the beginning. At surface level they look exactly the same since they reutilized shooting locations (guess it’s a Disney thing, because I recognized the cliffs of Jedha in Aladdin too).
So this actually reminds me of a few fun facts/stories!
Firstly, it’s not so much that it’s a Disney thing, as that Wadi Rum in Jordan is a popular filming location in general. Jordan is one of the most westernised countries in the middle east, with good infrastructure, and the Wadi Rum desert is quite accessible and with a lot of lovely hotels nearby. So it’s a good natural choice for an alien-looking landscape on Earth.
Now for the stories!
I’ve actually been to Wadi Rum, and Jordan. (Fun fact - the Dead Sea is as amazingly floaty as everyone says, you can’t quite imagine it, but the one thing that’s universal about floating in the Dead Sea but that nobody talks about is that all that salt really stings your butthole.)
The Wadi Rum desert is absolutely as incredible as it looks on film. Absolutely majestic landscape, but I also had one of the most horrifying times of my life there. We were camping out in the desert in some little lean-to shacks, without electricity or plumbing (since it’s illegal to develop on the desert, in order to preserve it). I was, ironically enough given why I’m telling this story, sleeping in a bed with a Mickey Mouse duvet (that’s all they had). But the food had disagreed with me.
So I woke up in the night knowing I needed to make it to the toilet block quickly, but also aware that the cooler night is when the desert bugs are more active. And there’s no electricity. So there’s me, walking across this informal compound by candlelight under the stars, jumping at shadows, desperately trying to hold in the shits. Eventually I make it to the toilet block, get seated, shit my guts out, and then I have to wipe my arse and just put my toilet paper in a basket next to me, because you’re not allowed to flush stuff into the desert.
It gets worse. So there’s me, feeling pretty rotten on a natty toilet by candlelight in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, when I hear a helicopter. Weird. The noise makes me raise my eyes to the top of the doorframe, and I see it’s not a helicopter, it’s a hornet, more than an inch long, and it’s come to check me out. I’ve got my pants round my ankles, and no way am I making any movements. There’s no escaping. But since I’m operating by candlelight, there’s a real chance that my candle will burn out, leaving me to navigate out of this situation by starlight alone. The hornet is helicoptering around the cubicle, which draws my eyes even higher, which makes me notice the most evil looking spider I’ve ever seen was hanging over the cubicle door the whole time. It’s shiny black and about an inch and a half across, with sharp, well-defined legs that end with about half an inch of white spike. It looks designed to look evil.
Suffice to say, if I hadn’t already shit myself that certainly would have done the job. Eventually the hornet left, and I slowly dressed up and got out by the last of my candlelight. I helped myself to a coke, since that was the other option and I didn’t trust the water, so I stayed awake through the rest of the night absolutely harrowed by that experience.
Still, a lovely place and a great holiday and I’d recommend Jordan to anyone.
I’ve also, by chance, been to Luke’s house too. Family did a Tunisia trip around 2012 and one of the tours from our hotel was the Star Wars one. So I got to see the “scum and villainy” view, Mos Eisley exterior set (which still stands), Luke’s house exterior (which is someone’s real house), and Luke’s house interior (which is someone’s real house but different from the exterior), where I got to eat at his dining table under that white and brown patterned ceiling.