DrDre

chyron8472 said:

I don’t see why people are constantly complaining about TLJ like “it breaks what TFA set up!” or some such. That’s what I liked about it—the plot twists.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that. There is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia).

The one real negative of the film is… Yoda. They got the Yoda voice actor from The Clone Wars (whom I hate), and used either another Creepy Puppet Yoda or a CGI adaption of it.

I have no problem with Snoke not being Palpatine, but he threw out the context and motivations with Snoke. The New Republic magically disappeared, with the FO instantly controlling the galaxy, which seems odd when it took the Rebel Alliance five yours to take control after the battle of Endor. It’s now just Empire vs rebels again, only with Darth Vader Light at the helm, who’s had no further training, and is now just waiting to be beat again by Rey. There’s no tension there. Rey’s won every fight she was in. She’s practically a Jedi Knight after three basic lessons. I guess the tension should come from the fact there are only a handful of rebels left, but that just makes it seem ridiculous to me. The FO have won. Kudos to them. TLJ so blatantly disregards many conventions for shock value, and it seems RJ forgot his movie is supposed to be part of a trilogy and saga. You don’t create a trilogy and saga by cutting all ties with the past, and having no open story threads for the future. There’s literally nothing to look forward to, except another big space or ground battle between the FO and the probably completely revived rebellion, and watch Rey whoop Kylo’s behind again. Been there, done that.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Yeah, I will watch it again tomorrow as well. Perhaps I will warm up to it too, but I will say, that despite it’s weak execution in the prequels, Lucas’ six episode saga had some underlying themes of hope and redemption that have gone by the wayside with this installment, like for example Luke who transcended his masters’ pessimism by believing in his overtly evil father’s capacity for good, now contemplating killing his nephew for having dark thoughts, and Leia ultimately giving up on her son at the end of this film. I know most people wanted to originality for TLJ, but this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

If you think they abandoned the theme of hope in this… I don’t know what to tell you but… watch the film again, I think you’ll see it’s very much there.

I actually think they went a bit out of their way trying to force the hope theme on us…

Luke preemptively wanting to kill his nephew, and Leia accepting her son is lost for me is the opposite of hopeful. It screams pessimism. Parents should not give up on their children, and given Luke’s experience with Vader, his behaviour is inconsistent.

Yeah, I will watch it again tomorrow as well. Perhaps I will warm up to it too, but I will say, that despite it’s weak execution in the prequels, Lucas’ six episode saga had some underlying themes of hope and redemption that have gone by the wayside with this installment, like for example Luke who transcended his masters’ pessimism by believing in his overtly evil father’s capacity for good, now contemplating killing his nephew for having dark thoughts, and Leia ultimately giving up on her son at the end of this film. I know most people wanted to originality for TLJ, but this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Well, I saw it, and against the trend and to my own surprise didn’t like it at all. As a stand alone movie I think, it’s pretty good, but as a Star Wars film it has so many issues, it’s hard to ignore.

There are many twists and turns, which were refreshing, but what are we really left with at the end? The New Republic is completely erased from existence at the start of the film, and we end up with a few dozen rebels as they are now once again called in a single ship having to defeat the FO, who now controls the entire galaxy. Talk about bad odds. Snoke became a plot device, only to be replaced by his incapable luitenant. Let’s not forget Kylo got his *** handed to him, and since this film directly follows TFA, and his training has not been completed, our main antagonist for episode IX remains just a boy in a mask (only his helmet is now too big), as Snoke called him, a pretender to the throne.

However, things are much worse on the side of the good. Whereas Luke took three films and the trials of Job to finally become a Jedi, Rey is now on her way to Jedi Knighthood after just three lessons. Three lessons reluctantly given by Luke are apparently enough for him to pass on the batton, and then just die. We got some Jedi history, which is nice, but apparently Yoda feels Rey and her three lessons worth of Jedi training are already more important than the collected wisdom of the Jedi masters of old. This attitude perfectly encapsulates this film.

I really liked TFA despite it’s derivative nature, mostly because of the new characters. However, what does TLJ really do with these characters?

Rey:

Rey who’s set up as a character with a mysterious background, who inexplicably has these great powers, but with a strong moral fibre, ends up in exactly the same place she was, only without the mystery. She’s still a as good natured as ever, only now she really just randomly has these amazing powers, that she hasn’t earned. She turns out to be a nobody, who’s now on the fast track to becoming a Jedi with only three basic lessons from the great Luke Skywalker. There’s no explanation why the Force awoke in her, it just did. The vision she had in TFA just turns out to have been a red herring.

Kylo:

Kylo has been set up to be an immature boy hiding behind a mask. He’s presented in TFA as the inheritor of Darth Vader’s legacy, but is ultimately exposed by Rey to be somewhat of a fraud. He get’s to go back to his master to lick his wounds, and hopefully reinvent himself. Sadly, this doesn’t pan out. He’s more or less cast aside by Snoke, and while this in of itself might have been an interesting starting point for his further development, he’s finally put in charge of the FO, not by his cunning or abilities, but because Rey hands herself to him, and Snoke is the dumbest fool in the galaxy.

Finn:

Finn get’s sent on a useless mission only made possible by Holdo’s poor communication skills. He fails his mission, but I guess wrecking a casino, and killing the severly underdeveloped Phasma is enough for him.

Poe:

Get’s a reasonable arc in this film, even if he seems like an unsuitable candidate for the leadership of the Resitance turned rebels.

Luke:

While Mark Hamill gives a great performance, this incarnation of the famed Jedi has him contemplating his nephew’s murder, because he has a bad vision. Remember this is the same character who couldn’t kill his father who was space Hitler. In the end it takes an appearance of Yoda, who inexplicably chooses this moment to reappear, and burns down the GFFA equivalent of the Old Testament as a joke to get Luke to see the light. His purpose is now to distract his mad nephew, such that his extremely inexperienced student can take his place to defeat Kylo (again), something the far more experienced Luke could have done in his sleep. Luke just dies, because he’s tired, I guess, and they need to give Kylo a fighting chance.

Leia:

Leia didn’t get much development in the previous film, and while being a dignified presence in this one, ultimately get’s to give up on her son, going against the main theme of hope and redemption that underlied the saga thusfar.

Snoke:

A villain seemingly older than time, a mysterious dark side user turns out to be nothing more than a plot device. This evil dark side master, who displays an awesome control of the Force, after showing his cunning, foresight, and inteligence, suddenly feels he’s invincible, and get’s cut down like a chump by his immature apprentice. Who he is, and where he came from is irrelevant now, I guess. The fact that this fool was somehow able to seduce Han and Leia’s son, and Luke’s student is completely glossed over. I suppose Kylo was just a bad egg.

I just don’t understand the praise for this film to be honest. It would be an entertaining blockbuster on it’s own, but as part of the now eight part saga it’s a massive letdown in my view, that not only undermines the six part Lucas saga, but TFA as well. I wish, I could love this movie like so many here, but ultimately this film doesn’t really respect what preceeded it in my view.

lansing said:

um, I have subscribed to this thread but the system haven’t send me notification email on new replies since October…

Anyway, what is the difference between the new developing color matching bot and the one we have now? Is it that it works better on darker scenes?

It’s just a completely different method, that will hopefully be more accurate in most cases, but probably worse in others.

theMaestro said:

I had a question about color spaces. Basically I’ve noticed that the colors can look slightly different depending on which “Working Space” is selected in Color Management under After Effects’ Project Settings. So which working space should I select (e.g. SI RGB, sRGB, etc.) so that the post-LUT colors there look like they do in Dr Dre’s program (when you build the color matching model)? Also, does it matter which program you use to take the reference & test screenshots? I’ve been using VLC to do this (and then editing in GIMP to align them properly), but I’m not sure if there’s some better way.

In principle it doesn’t matter which color space you use, as long as you use it consistently. Some color spaces have a wider gamut, meaning that it can represent a wider range of colors than the standard sRGB. The display colors in the tool are sRGB, I believe.

The scans look amazing poita! So much better than the bluray. I’ve donated another 50 USD for the cause.

poita said:

Want to try the lobsterman shot?
https://we.tl/qe5Wo5Yr1u

The download link has the file

This is a challenging shot, where the bluray’s crushed colors and missing gradients cause problems. Anyways, here’s the result:

Bluray:

Bluray regraded:

Here’s another example for one of the most difficult color matching challenges, which is impossible to do with the more traditional color matching algorithm:

This shot originally featured a red sky, like on this frame from Mike Verta’s ColorRef videos:

Here’s the color matching result:

KillThad said:

Did anyone see the cleanup job I had done?

Yeah, looks great!

poita said:

How important is it that the frames match precisely? Does a small amount of warp affect things?

As long as the warping is not too extreme, it shouldn’t affect the result significantly.

As I’ve shown in poita’s 1997 SE thread, I’m working on a new color matching algorithm, based on the machine learning methodology used for the color grading bot, as such henceforth it shall be known as…the color matching bot.

Despite still being a work in progress, here’s an example, matching the Star Wars bluray to poita’s 1997 SE scan (corrected by NeverarGreat).

Bluray:

1997 SE scan:

Bluray matched to the 1997 SE scan:

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/WLWNNN8X

Here’s another version (I’m sort of experimenting with the parameters 😉):

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/WLWNNN8X

In a nutshell, after cropping both the test and reference frames to match content, a weighted regression model is created for each RGB combination in the frame (or another color space), that gives similar colors higher weights than less similar colors.

Synnöve said:

Also worth considering that the limited bit-rate of the HDTV capture will result in loss of detail to a further extent than the Blu (especially if some of those bits have to go to representing the grain).

That would certainly have been the case, if the DNR on the bluray had not been so heavy. The example I posted earlier makes this very clear:

WOWOW matched to DVD:

Bluray matched to DVD:

The amount of detail lost in the water is quite stunning.

Synnöve said:

Out of curiosity, are any of you using monitors calibrated via 3DLUT in a light controlled room? If so, what are you monitoring your video feeds with and how do you know what you’re looking at is accurate?

Also, with regards to the Blu vs the HDTV cap: from what I can see on caps-a-holic, it doesn’t seem that the Blu-Ray capture is generally lacking in detail (barring some shots) insomuch as it simply has had the grain removed and the contrast lessened (contrast effects perceived “detail”). Additionally, the HDTV capture’s grain is larger and has horrid compression artifacts. I’d wager that, if the blu was re-grained and regraded properly, it’d look better than the HDTV capture or print-scan.

Well, working in the field of image processing I can tell you, that you cannot remove grain without also removing detail. That sadly is a mathematical certainty. So, regraining is not going to bring back detail that was lost. The bluray is less compressed for sure, but overall the grain free look will result in a softer look to a film, that originally was quite grainy.

kk650 said:

I don’t know, I’ve got both and the 4k remastered blu-ray in motion looks much more filmlike to my eyes than the WOWOW release.

Well, that’s personal preference of course, as I feel the WOWOW looks more film like, since it has more negative grain, and I feel the bluray has that plastic look consistent with heavy DNR.

Sure, there might be some places where the 4k remastered blu-ray is softer than the WOWOW release but I’m sure there are places where the WOWOW release is softer than the 4k remastered blu-ray. In terms of how the two transfers feel when you’re watching them in motion, its night and day, the 4k remastered blu-ray feels like film while the WOWOW feels digital.

Having compared a large number of frames for both releases, I haven’t come across a shot where the WOWOW is softer, yet. Here’s another example, where I matched both the WOWOW and the bluray to the DVD.

WOWOW matched to DVD:

Bluray matched to DVD:

However, like you said, it’s a matter of preference.

Here’s a another color match performed by an updated color matching bot:

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/0BFNNN8U

NeverarGreat said:

That fighter take-off shot actually looks really natural on the print, despite the low contrast!

For comparison, here’s the blu-ray (and then some of my own adjustments):
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/WL7NNN8X

This seems like a right time to introduce my new color matching algorithm. It’s based on the machine learning methodology used for the color grading bot, as such henceforth it shall be known as…the color matching bot.

Bluray:

Poita scan (corrected by NeverarGreat):

Bluray matched by NeverarGreat:

Bluray matched to scan with color matching bot:

The end of an era, the Star Wars Legacy forum is down. I know some will be hopeful, that this means something is brewing, but personally I think mverta has left the building, and Star Wars Legacy Edition will disappear into obscurity, without Mike promoting it. It’s a shame Mike didn’t say goodbye. I know, he could never release it, but a lot of us were still invested in the project, and he at one point stated, there would be screenshots and such. Well, I suppose we can hope for a miracle, but at least for now this is the end of the line.

kk650 said:

RayRogers said:
To me, the DrDre version more closely recreates the cinematic feeling and the kk650 is more adjusted including the extremely unneeded DNR. I really hate DNR and heavily prefer film grain all the time.

No DNR was added to my release. The main source of my regrade was the 4k remastered blu-ray of Raiders of the Lost Ark, the highest quality official release out there. The WOWOW hd transport stream doesn’t really compare IMHO, the 4k release looks like film while the WOWOW release looks very artificial/digital. The situation is very similar to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Mondo 4k remastered release that looks far more filmic and beautiful to me compared to the very digital looking Mondo release.

I don’t agree, that this is actually the case. The WOWOW suffers from more digital artifacts due to the compression of the HDTV stream, but is actually based on a 4K master created by the same company who did Temple of Doom and Last Crusade, all of which were done in 2011 for the 30th anniversary of ROTLA. The main difference between those two masters (aside from color, and some digital changes) is, that the official bluray release has much heavier DNR, compared to the WOWOW. A frame by frame comparison shows very clearly that a lot of detail has been scrubbed away.

I once matched both the bluray and the WOWOW to the 2003 DVD, and the difference is quite obvious:

WOWOW:

Bluray:

DVD:

WOWOW matched to DVD:

Bluray matched to DVD:

You just have to look at Indy’s clothes, the water, and the smoke to see, that a lot of detail is missing, and heavy DNR was applied to the bluray. Even the DVD has more detail in the water, and there are many shots that are worse. Now, obviously some will prefer the heavy DNR, or are bothered by the compression artifacts in the WOWOW, but I do not agree that it is more film like, as the 35mm scan in many instances actually has more detail than either the WOWOW or the bluray, since even the WOWOW has loss of detail due to DNR.

Yup! 😃

NeverarGreat said:

Here’s what that frame from my project looks like:

And here’s the SE scan corrected and luminosity matched to the Blu-ray:

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/FCJNNN8U

You can see in the Blu-ray, there’s a gross blue cast across the chair and all of the highlights, whereas the scan actually has very good color.

The bluecast can actually be quite easily be removed (and skin tones matched):

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/KZ7NNN8X

For comparison I did some regrades of the bluray based on NeverarGreat’s technicolor recreation:

Wow, the color balance between shots is really all over the place like you said poita:

Here’s another version with the same grade applied to both the TIFF (top) and DPX (bottom) with a bit more shadow detail:

Overall the one based on the DPX looks better to me, but this is probably logical considering it’s a shadowy scene. The TIFF might take the edge for the brighter scenes outside.