DrDre

adywan said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Reys fast progression, the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint.

I thought this was explained and dealt with very elegantly in the sequence within Snoke’s chamber. Snoke’s “Darkness rises… and light to meet it” speech clarifies that as Kylo’s dark side power has grown, the Force has found natural balance by also growing the light side. Snoke had mistakenly assumed this growing power was manifested within Skywalker, but in this speech he makes it clear that it was Rey that was the recipient.

I guess the Force forgot to grow the light side when Darth Sidious and his apprentices wiped out the Jedi order and brought tiranny to the galaxy. Every Jedi including Anakin, created by the Force, and Luke have had to work hard at getting control over their Force powers, but Rey just magically gets them, because Kylo Ren stepped on the scene, a poor man’s Darth Vader, and an even poorer Emperor/Supreme Leader. It’s a pretty weak defense in my view.

But there was still Obi-Wan, Yoda and a maturing Luke. This time there was just Rey. Luke had closed himself off from the force and that just left leia. But she also what she said she knew about the force before meeting Luke; lifting stones and controlling peoples minds. Something she heard about and something she tried out ( after somehow being able to block kylo during the interrogation and then failed the first couple of attempts) and was shocked she was able to do it.

Obi-Wan was dead by the end of ANH and Yoda was in a pretty similar position as Luke, having to hide on a backwater planet, and presumably also had to close himself off from the Force to avoid detection by The Emperor and Vader.

Luke couldn’t control his powers even after being trained by Yoda:

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it!

To quote Han in TFA: that’s not how the Force works. It’s sloppy storytelling. Even if RJ was following your line of thinking, he should have including some peace of dialogue, where Luke provides an explanation for Rey’s rapidly growing abilities. As it is now we’re faced with a much more obvious inconsistency than the often criticized inconsistencies Lucas introduced with the PT, and a seemingly overpowered and perfect heroine, who pulls deus ex machinas out of her hat like a great magician.

Matt.F said:

RE: Reys fast progression, the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint.

I thought this was explained and dealt with very elegantly in the sequence within Snoke’s chamber. Snoke’s “Darkness rises… and light to meet it” speech clarifies that as Kylo’s dark side power has grown, the Force has found natural balance by also growing the light side. Snoke had mistakenly assumed this growing power was manifested within Skywalker, but in this speech he makes it clear that it was Rey that was the recipient.

I guess the Force forgot to grow the light side when Darth Sidious and his apprentices wiped out the Jedi order and brought tiranny to the galaxy. Every Jedi including Anakin, created by the Force, and Luke have had to work hard at getting control over their Force powers, but Rey just magically gets them, because Kylo Ren stepped on the scene, a poor man’s Darth Vader, and an even poorer Emperor/Supreme Leader. It’s a pretty weak defense in my view.

TV’s Frink said:

Ah, one of the “TFA was unoriginal and TLJ was too original” reviews. Lol.

Don’t know if this was directed at a specific review, or the more critical reviews in general? In the latter case I think it misrepresents many of the criticism against TLJ:

• Rey’s fast progression from junk dealer to Jedi is not a matter of originality, but consistency. There can’t be more than a few days to a few weeks between the start of TFA and the ending of TLJ. As a matter of fact TLJ takes place over a matter of hours, considering the whole out of fuel plot. In that time Rey is given a highly condensed version of Luke’s arc over two films, starting on a backwater planet to learn the ways of the Force, and ending up in the big bad’s throne room, and finally as the last Jedi. The problem here of course is, that she hardly recieves any training, and ultimately isn’t really tested or suffers any serious setbacks. She crawls through a river of **** and comes out clean at the end, apparently greater and wiser than Luke Skywalker himself, making the old Jedi Master redundant to the point, that he can die at peace mirroring Yoda’s death in ROTJ.

• While Snoke’s death was shocking, and overall reasonably well executed, he’s reduced to a plot device, because his character hasn’t been properly set up, or his history and motivations explained. His function seems merely to prop up Kylo Ren, who after being deflated at the end of TFA, now is reinvented as the big bad of the ST, but without the necessary development and character growth. This criticism again is not a matter of originality, but story and character development.

• The criticism against the representation of Luke Skywalker is also one of consistency, particulary the idea that Luke would contemplate the murder of his nephew. This 180 degree turn in his character is severely underdeveloped, and only explained in a single scene in which he reads his nephew’s mind realizing Snoke had already won Ben’s heart. This also comes back to the complete lack of developement of Snoke, and the history between Snoke and Kylo. We’re now supposed to believe, that Luke who refused to kill his father and accept he was lost to the dark side, knowing all the terrible things his father had done under the guise of Darth Vader, now gives up on his young nephew based on a vision of the future, a future he knows to allways be in motion. This scene might have worked, if we had learned a bit more about Luke’s psychological state post-ROTJ. He could have told Rey, that his father’s death, and learning about the true magnitude of Vader’s crimes had left him emotionally scarred, and he grew obsessed with preventing the birth of another Darth Vader. He’d found the strength to forgive his father, but the price of his father’s redemption had been too great for the galaxy. If the whole Jedi order couldn’t prevent his father’s turn, how could he by himself create a new and stable Jedi order? So, against Yoda’s council, for years he had refused to train a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, until young Ben was born, and against his better judgement decided to mentor Ben and a few other students. He wasn’t ready to be a teacher, and young Ben sensed Luke’s trepidation, blaming himself. Snoke ceased the opportunity to corrupt the insecure and impressionable Ben, leading to the scene in the film.

These are just three of many criticisms against the film, that mostly relate to lack of story and character development, and/or consistency. The shocks and twists are fine, but without the necessary backbone of story and character end up being hollow and superficial. This is all just my opinion of course, but as I stated before it’s not the originality of RJ’s approach that I dislike, but the condensation of plot and character, that makes the story feel rushed and shallow.

Saw it a second time, and overall enjoyed the film. I still feel it’s deeply flawed and plays it fast and loose with the in-universe rules. I still can’t believe how overpowered and perfect Rey is, learning in days what others do in years. There’s good stuff and some great scenes, but overall this film feels disconnected to the rest of the saga. I also feel the acting was on a higher level in TFA, and felt Domnhall Gleeson was overall very bad, which sucks because he’s now one of the two main antagonists. Kylo and Hux simply can’t compete with Vader and Tarkin or Vader and the Emperor as far as I’m concerned. Overall the antagonists left for ep IX seem a pretty weak bunch, but then again so do the rebels.

joefavs said:

I think Luke’s temptation is there to show that you never stop needing to resist the dark side, no matter who you are. And Leia’s decision to give up on Ben boils down to a Wrath of Khan style equation about personal needs vs. the greater good. She gives up on Ben because he’s going to burn the galaxy down. It’s a counterpoint to ROTJ’s message to be sure, but depending on how IX goes I don’t think it necessarily undermines it.

Darth Vader did burn the galaxy down, but that didn’t make Luke give up on him. Yet, here he is contemplating to slice his nephew in half before he’s so much as started a bonfire, which essentially pushes him over the edge. By the end of the film they’ve all given up on him. If that doesn’t undermine the OT message, what does?

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Except RJ ignored most of the setups in TFA to do his own thing. So, in this case he did the folding, before drawing the next piece.

But he didn’t ignore them, he expanded on them and brought some of them to a conclusion. It’s not as if he didn’t acknowledge them or anything.

Luke: went looking for the first Jedi Temple, because he wanted to die.

First Jedi Temple: doesn’t really serve a purpose. Most of what happens there could have happened on any island.

Snoke: becomes a plot device.

Kylo: after being exposed as sort of a poser in TFA, get’s handed control of the FO by his dim witted master, and without completing his training is now the big bad of the ST.

Rey: mysteriously having all these powers that normally takes years to learn and control, who has visions of her past, and lightsaber calling to her, turns out be a nobody, but without proper training is on the fast track for Jedi Knighthood. She did her first Jedi mind trick on SKB, and by the end of TLJ, which can be at most a few days in real time, can move tons of rocks with her mind.

GlastoEls said:

DrDre said:
So, why did Luke go there? To die. If he wanted to die, and see the Jedi end, why go a place associated with the Jedi in the first place. Seems to me the FO would have found him eventually. Why not go to some random unknown Island? Why not kill yourself, if you’re so convinced it should all end? Why did he wear these elaborate white Jedi robes at the end of TFA? He sure seemed an almost mythical Jedi Master with the wisdom of the ages, waiting for the right person to arrive.

To be fair, maybe he ‘went to die’, but was actually sub-consciously hoping for ‘the right person to arrive’ to shake him out the doledrums - and the combination of Rey and Yoda did actually that.

That’s what I liked most about the Yoda scene - Luke is all melodramatic, but Yoda - with greater perspective - almost no sells him, comforting him that ‘failure is the best teacher’…

That’s a nice way to justify what happened, but I didn’t see any indication that Luke wanted to be shaken out of anything.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

GlastoEls said:

Yoda Is Your Father said:

As such, this trilogy is like that game where you fold a piece of paper and each person takes it in turns to draw a head/torso/legs then unfold the paper and see what weird monster drawing you end up with.

That’s exactly what it is, for better or for worse!

Mmm, not really, since in this case the paper isn’t folded and whoever draws the next piece can see exactly what came before and can consult whoever drew the last piece on what they should draw next.

Except RJ ignored most of the setups in TFA to do his own thing. So, in this case he did the folding, before drawing the next piece.

As such, this trilogy is like that game where you fold a piece of paper and each person takes it in turns to draw a head/torso/legs then unfold the paper and see what weird monster drawing you end up with.

That’s such an accurate description in my view. RJ mostly disregarded every setup of TFA. Take the simple example of Han telling Rey and Finn, that Luke went to look for the first Jedi Temple. Given that setup, and Luke’s emotional response at the end of TFA, you would expect he had gone there in hopes of finding some ancient wisdom to deal with the threat of Snoke and Kylo. The TFA script states:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, why did Luke go there? To die. If he wanted to die, and see the Jedi end, why go a place associated with the Jedi in the first place. Seems to me the FO would have found him eventually. Why not go to some random unknown Island? Why not kill yourself, if you’re so convinced it should all end? Why did he wear these elaborate white Jedi robes at the end of TFA? He sure seemed an almost mythical Jedi Master with the wisdom of the ages, waiting for the right person to arrive. That moment and the character of Luke have been completely deflated. It’s twists and shocks for the sake of it, all the while sacrificing the integrity of a classic character to prop up some new ones. Next we’ll learn Han and Leia beat Kylo as a kid. Shocking isn’t it. Bet you didn’t see that one coming.

Z6PO said:

LexX said:

DrDre said:

It burns the old Jedi texts for crying out loud, as a statement that the ancient history of the Jedi is boring.

That really pissed me off as a message the film gives at that point. “History is boring, let’s burn it for a few laughs.” And coming from Yoda it didn’t suit at all. I get the idea what it was trying to make which is let’s begin with a clean slate, but you should never turn your back on history. It always teaches something. That’s like burning constitutional laws or something.

The message being that the Jedi Order was wrong: the Force shouldn’t be a dogma. It shouldn’t be teached from ancient books by secluded monks to a few selected novices, but made accessible to everyone.

And what are books for? Making knowledge accessible to anyone who wants to read them. Anyone who claims burning books, makes you wiser is a fool. Reading them and forming your own ideas and opinions based on multiple sources of information seems far more wise to me.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB.

Yeah, Coruscant isn’t a part of the OT. If you want a more in depth and nuanced look at the makeup of the FO, it’s out there. Same goes for the Resistance.

I don’t care about some sort of EU.

Don’t worry, I read and enjoy EU. I just don’t care about using it as a way to fill plot holes in movies, which in my view should stand on their own.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB.

Yeah, Coruscant isn’t a part of the OT. If you want a more in depth and nuanced look at the makeup of the FO, it’s out there. Same goes for the Resistance.

I don’t care about some sort of EU. It should be in the films. ANH speaks of the Emperor, the Imperial Senate, hidden layers. Coruscant didn’t need to be named, because we knew the Emperor and Senate needed to be seated somewhere. In TESB we meet the mysterious Emperor, dark side master of Vader, hidden layers. TESB opened up the possibility of a whole new backstory of Luke’s father, and the rise of the Empire. There are many more examples of places and stuff mentioned happening off-screen suggesting a much larger universe, and history. TLJ has none of that. What you see is what you get, and it even manages to remove or invalidate the mysteries and hidden layers provided by TFA, or seemingly provided by TLJ itself. The New Republic is gone. Snoke is gone. The mystery surrounding Rey is gone. The mystery of the first Jedi Temple is reduced to scenery. It burns the old Jedi texts for crying out loud, as a statement that the ancient history of the Jedi is boring. Kylo’s motivations for struggling with the dark side, and his parents is gone. He was allready on his way to being bad, and Luke sent him over the edge. He might as well have been any random student, because overall the fact that he’s Han and Leia’s son is pretty irrelevant to the story or his further development as a character.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB. The rebellion now fits on a single star ship. There are no hidden layers, no sense of space and time. Snoke and Rey’s mysterious background provided those hidden layers, stuff to speculate about. TLJ snuffed that out. That’s quite depressing to me.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

Well I disagree. Rey was able to do things in TFA that previously required a lot of training, a trend that continues in this film. That in my view requires some sort of explanation, and just being the child of some nobody’s doesn’t cut it for me.

I don’t even know how to engage with this. “Some nobody,” the force is for everybody, that’s the whole point.

Everybody that puts the effort and time in, and has a good teacher. You don’t just magically get these powers. Even before the PT Lucas has written it takes many years to master the Force.

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two, prophesies and such. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons and spacecships emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil. The rebellion is reduced to a bunch of people, that can fit in the Millenium Falcon, with zero connections to the rest of the galaxy.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

I don’t see why people are constantly complaining about TLJ like “it breaks what TFA set up!” or some such. That’s what I liked about it—the plot twists.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that. There is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia).

The one real negative of the film is… Yoda. They got the Yoda voice actor from The Clone Wars (whom I hate), and used either another Creepy Puppet Yoda or a CGI adaption of it.

it took the Rebel Alliance five yours to take control after the battle of Endor.

Wait a sec, no it didn’t. It’s been established that it took less than a year for the Empire to back down.

Five years, a year, who cares. The FO took instant control of the galaxy. It took them zero years, which is unrealistic, especially considering SKB was blown up along with a large part of their resources.

DominicCobb said:

JediExile said:

DominicCobb said:

Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation.

What about a horribly disfigured and extremely powerful force user that’s the leader of a mysterious new group that took the place of the dead Empire and somehow influenced Ben Solo to turn to the dark side (which everyone in TFA and TLJ kinda acknowledges but there’s still no explanation as to how that happened) and murder his father, fellow students, and attempt to murder his uncle DOESN’T invite speculation?

Sorry, “invite” was the wrong word, I think “demand” or “require” was closer to what I meant.

Well, that’s up to each of us to decide. You may feel it doesn’t require an explanation, which is perfectly fine, but others like myself may feel differently.

I think the first thing you have to realize is that the rules around the Force are constantly evolving (and always have) and that how much training one needs before they’re a “Jedi” is really anyone’s guess.

But, beyond that, I don’t think I’d say at all that either has mastered the Force. And I think we put too much stock into the idea that you need a teacher to be trained, and I think that’s the point here. A teacher is helpful, up to a certain point. Rey doesn’t need Luke (or his bloodline). Kylo doesn’t need Snoke (or his backstory). They can forge their own paths. This is their story and their future.

Why do I have to realize? All the films leading up to TFA shows Force users need a significant amount of training to master the Force. Even in TFA Snoke suggests Kylo needs more training. I think future directors should respect the in-universe rules, and when they don’t, provide explanations. I’m not fond of a universe rife with inconsistencies.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

Well I disagree. Rey was able to do things in TFA that previously required a lot of training, a trend that continues in this film. That in my view requires some sort of explanation, and just being the child of some nobody’s doesn’t cut it for me.

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not really happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still pretty much in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child. Neither should reasonably have mastered the Force, as Kylo has been given no further training, and Rey’s been given three lessons. Yet, they now are the sole live representatives of the light and dark side of the Force. Yoda told Luke to pass on what he had learned, but he has done no such thing, but we somehow still have to believe Rey’s going to be the first in a new line of Jedi. I know some will argue, Luke could come back to train Rey as a Force ghost, but then why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda do the same? Why did Luke have to pass on anything, if Obi-Wan and Yoda can train students from the grave. It just makes very little sense, and dilutes the mythology, in my opinion of course.

I don’t hate TLJ, and as a stand alone film I think it’s overall entertaining, but as part of the Star Wars saga it just feels disconnected to me, even to it’s immediate predecessor.

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne.

And what’s the problem with that? Han’s death and Snoke’s death play two massively important roles for Kylo Ren. Two times in which he has an seemingly impossible choice to make but he ultimately chooses to “kill the past” and ascend further into the dark side. It is interesting and new, and both deaths are done very well. More than anything, the old characters should be there to serve as foils to our new character’s.

I didn’t think Snoke death was done well. Snoke was made to wear the idiot hat, much like the Jedi were by Lucas in the PT. Kylo didn’t get where he was by cunning and his abilities, but because Snoke’s a moron.

A moron? Snoke’s plan made a good deal of sense from his angle and his overconfidence and overreaching of emotional abuse of Kylo was his downfall. That’s not stupidity.

Snoke desired to pit both Rey and Kylo between each other. To see them struggle with what side they wanted each other to be on and see the chaos to come of it. Snoke’s dialogue about seeing Kylo’s every intent, and feeling “no more conflict, but resolve” is great cause Snoke is completely right. He senses a complete feeling of no conflict, but is too blinded to realize who it is directed at. Snoke thought that abusing and ridiculing Kylo would drive him towards further greatness. That is also true. He was simply too blinded to realize it would involve his downfall.

Like another user said, Kylo achieved here what Vader originally wanted in ESB. And it was executed incredibly well with smart, foreshadowing dialogue.

Well to me if a character first claims that Kylo is split to the core, and then in an instant believes he’s no longer conflicted, and cut down like a chump, he’s a moron.

If I recall, he thought he was split to the core in one scene and then it was only when he had brought Rey to him, that he sensed the resolve. Which would make sense to me since you see the slow build up of his and Rey relationship alongside the increased abuse and frustration with Snoke.

He mentioned Kylo was conflicted multiple times. He was also the person to connect Rey and Kylo across the galaxy, so he must have continually felt Kylo’s anger, frustration, and doubts. If he can connect Rey and Kylo across vast distances, he must also have felt Kylo couldn’t kill his mother.

He set the connection and of course he sensed conflict but it was only after a ton of interaction with Rey, and inner turmoil, that Kylo had finally felt resolved. And you can’t blame Snoke for becoming too overconfident while still showing his power by knowing Kylo’s state of mind but maybe not the exact contents of it.

In all honesty, your criticism here would apply to Return of the Jedi as well. That whole third act is the Emperor saying how much Vader is on his side and it is only at the very end that Vader turns against the Emperor.

Not at all. Vader actively tries to kill Luke before the Emperor’s eyes, after which Vader is seriously wounded. Vader has given the Emperor little reason to doubt his loyalty. Add to this that in order to save Luke, Vader would have to sacrifice himself, which he does. Kylo just stands there. He’s done nothing to suggest he’s willing to kill Rey, or show resolve. Having to kill Rey was presented as a sort of test for Kylo. Well if it’s a test, he might fail, which Snoke should have known.

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne.

And what’s the problem with that? Han’s death and Snoke’s death play two massively important roles for Kylo Ren. Two times in which he has an seemingly impossible choice to make but he ultimately chooses to “kill the past” and ascend further into the dark side. It is interesting and new, and both deaths are done very well. More than anything, the old characters should be there to serve as foils to our new character’s.

I didn’t think Snoke death was done well. Snoke was made to wear the idiot hat, much like the Jedi were by Lucas in the PT. Kylo didn’t get where he was by cunning and his abilities, but because Snoke’s a moron.

A moron? Snoke’s plan made a good deal of sense from his angle and his overconfidence and overreaching of emotional abuse of Kylo was his downfall. That’s not stupidity.

Snoke desired to pit both Rey and Kylo between each other. To see them struggle with what side they wanted each other to be on and see the chaos to come of it. Snoke’s dialogue about seeing Kylo’s every intent, and feeling “no more conflict, but resolve” is great cause Snoke is completely right. He senses a complete feeling of no conflict, but is too blinded to realize who it is directed at. Snoke thought that abusing and ridiculing Kylo would drive him towards further greatness. That is also true. He was simply too blinded to realize it would involve his downfall.

Like another user said, Kylo achieved here what Vader originally wanted in ESB. And it was executed incredibly well with smart, foreshadowing dialogue.

Well to me if a character first claims that Kylo is split to the core, and then in an instant believes he’s no longer conflicted, and cut down like a chump, he’s a moron.

If I recall, he thought he was split to the core in one scene and then it was only when he had brought Rey to him, that he sensed the resolve. Which would make sense to me since you see the slow build up of his and Rey relationship alongside the increased abuse and frustration with Snoke.

He mentioned Kylo was conflicted multiple times. He was also the person to connect Rey and Kylo across the galaxy, so he must have continually felt Kylo’s anger, frustration, and doubts. If he can connect Rey and Kylo across vast distances, he must also have felt Kylo couldn’t kill his mother. Everything leading up to the throne room confrontation suggested to us, and thus to the omni-present Snoke, that Kylo was in a worse state than he ever was before. Ryan set everything up such that the viewer would believe Kylo could turn back to the good side. He also sets up Snoke as a witness to all this through the Force. Yet, when the plot needs Snoke to go, he suddenly senses resolve and isn’t able to put two and two together.

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne.

And what’s the problem with that? Han’s death and Snoke’s death play two massively important roles for Kylo Ren. Two times in which he has an seemingly impossible choice to make but he ultimately chooses to “kill the past” and ascend further into the dark side. It is interesting and new, and both deaths are done very well. More than anything, the old characters should be there to serve as foils to our new character’s.

I didn’t think Snoke death was done well. Snoke was made to wear the idiot hat, much like the Jedi were by Lucas in the PT. Kylo didn’t get where he was by cunning and his abilities, but because Snoke’s a moron.

A moron? Snoke’s plan made a good deal of sense from his angle and his overconfidence and overreaching of emotional abuse of Kylo was his downfall. That’s not stupidity.

Snoke desired to pit both Rey and Kylo between each other. To see them struggle with what side they wanted each other to be on and see the chaos to come of it. Snoke’s dialogue about seeing Kylo’s every intent, and feeling “no more conflict, but resolve” is great cause Snoke is completely right. He senses a complete feeling of no conflict, but is too blinded to realize who it is directed at. Snoke thought that abusing and ridiculing Kylo would drive him towards further greatness. That is also true. He was simply too blinded to realize it would involve his downfall.

Like another user said, Kylo achieved here what Vader originally wanted in ESB. And it was executed incredibly well with smart, foreshadowing dialogue.

Well to me if a character first claims that Kylo is split to the core, and then in an instant believes he’s no longer conflicted, and cut down like a chump, he’s a moron.

It’s all an issue of RJ cramming two films worth of development into half a film. Kylo needed to develop further, show he was a competent leader of the FO, and a serious threat to Rey. Then it would be credible for Snoke to believe his apprentice has resolve.

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne.

And what’s the problem with that? Han’s death and Snoke’s death play two massively important roles for Kylo Ren. Two times in which he has an seemingly impossible choice to make but he ultimately chooses to “kill the past” and ascend further into the dark side. It is interesting and new, and both deaths are done very well. More than anything, the old characters should be there to serve as foils to our new character’s.

I didn’t think Snoke death was done well. Snoke was made to wear the idiot hat, much like the Jedi were by Lucas in the PT. Kylo didn’t get where he was by cunning and his abilities, but because Snoke was a moron. To me this deflates Kylo even more, than his defeat by Rey in TFA. He’s already been beaten, and get’s handed control of the FO by his master’s stupidity.

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

A final chapter that will feature the rebels somehow defeating the FO, and Rey beating Kylo again. There’s no tension there. All the connections to the past are gone. Rey’s a blank slate without a history, as is the FO. Leia’s given up on her son, and since Carrie Fisher is sadly gone, there’s not going to be a confrontation. Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne. The final chapter is supposed to be a pay-off, but a pay-off to what?

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

it seems RJ forgot his movie is supposed to be part of a trilogy and saga. You don’t create a trilogy and saga by cutting all ties with the past, and having no open story threads for the future. There’s literally nothing to look forward to

My wife says that’s one thing she liked about this film, as a middle film, as opposed to ESB. In ESB the movie just kind of ended, with a very deliberate (and bothersome) cliffhanger. In this, sure there could be more to the story, but there doesn’t have to be. It could end right there with “even if the Resistance dies, there are still (young) Force users and a hope for the future.”

Well, I didn’t. I now have zero interest to watch Ep IX, even though I probably will anyway. In my view the ST is a disjointed mess, with RJ killing all story threads and setups provided by TFA in favour of his own stuff, while providing zero story threads and setups for the future.