DrDre

dahmage said:

also, wasn’t the point of connecting their minds, to trick Rey into coming to him? finding luke from Rey was just a part 2 of the plan, not the whole plan. Rey was someone to be dealt with on her own based on her force use in TFA, snoke knew this.

Yeah, but why trick Rey to come to him, if he can send an armada to come to them, and get both Rey and Luke?

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how these powers were first introduced to the audience, starting in 1977.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

I’m pretty sure he reads her mind, doesn’t he? He even talks about dealing with Skywalker after they kill the rebels. Or are you talking about how he should have read her mind while she was still on the island?

Yes, exactly. Snoke wants to find and destroy Luke Skywalker. To do this he enacts an elaborate scheme to connect Rey and Kylo’s minds, to convince Rey that if she comes to Kylo, he will turn back to the light side. However, this is a ruse, because Snoke wants Rey to reveal Luke’s location. However, since he was able to allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, see and even touch each other (influence their visual cortex, and cerebrum), he should have been able to read Rey’s mind directly as he did in the throne room. He could thus have immediately discovered Luke’s location, while Rey was still on the island, and send Kylo and his troops to destroy both.

I don’t mean to seem like i am jumping in here, but i find myself wondering if they really can read each other’s minds when connected via the force. I don’t remember that ever happening? They saw each other’s 'future’when they touched hands… that is all i come up with.

Kylo could see who her parents are in her mind. He stated this in the film. He subsequently reveals the information in the throne room.

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how these powers were first introduced to the audience, starting in 1977.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

I’m pretty sure he reads her mind, doesn’t he? He even talks about dealing with Skywalker after they kill the rebels. Or are you talking about how he should have read her mind while she was still on the island?

Yes, exactly. Snoke wants to find and destroy Luke Skywalker. To do this he enacts an elaborate scheme to connect Rey and Kylo’s minds, to convince Rey that if she comes to Kylo, he will turn back to the light side. However, this is a ruse, because Snoke wants Rey to reveal Luke’s location. However, since he was able to allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, see and even touch each other (influence their visual cortex, and cerebrum), he should have been able to read Rey’s mind directly as he did in the throne room. He could thus have immediately discovered Luke’s location, while Rey was still on the island, and send Kylo and his troops to destroy both.

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how canon evolved, starting in 1977, particulary when inconsistencies are introduced.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

Perhaps you should restrict yourself to applying psycho analysis to yourself. I don’t need to be told by someone else, what type of fan I am.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

ChainsawAsh said:

Really? I thought Snoke looked great for the most part. I forgot he was all CG in a couple shots, actually.

Yeah, me too. I felt he was very intimidating. I was sorry to see him go.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan.

Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

Because the Mind Probe only works when you’re close to someone, you cant do a Mind Probe from trillions of miles away - thought everyone knew that! You in particular who had earlier kept banging on about characters having to be close to each other to mentally connect. Blimey, you’re not being very consistent.

I see, but you can connect two minds, such that someone else, namely Kylo can read her mind and find out the identity of her parents from a trillion miles away, as he states to her in one of their mind melts, and subsequently reveals in the throne room. I see your logic, NOT!!!

Snoke can link their minds from a trillion miles away, make Rey believe Kylo will turn to the light side by feeding her false information, allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, to see AND to touch each other, but he can’t read her mind himself, because…?

You know what this spells? The words inconsistent and contrived.

Matt.F said:

Dre… you’re wrong. Have been all along. Sorry old chap.

Only if you apply a retcon, which is what I’ve been arguing all along.

However, even if we apply a retcon, as you’ve been doing over and over, TLJ’s application of the mind reading power is still inconsistent and contrived, while your argument that the same applies to the OT is still debunked. Sorry, old chap, you’ll have to do better than this.

Matt.F said:

And if we are using wiki, then this clarifies that Leia was a force ‘USER’ prior to A New Hope, when she apparently saved a girl from falling off a balcony.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

Shall we continue DrDre?

Oke, a history lesson. Star Wars was a film released in 1977, while it’s sequels were released in 1980 and 1983.

Leia saved that girl in the book “The Last of the Jedi: Master of Deception” released in 2008.

I’m sure you’re understanding where I’m going with this. If a new book comes out that claims Leia has wings, or that her famous hairbuns were really head phones, this doesn’t in any way imply that Geoge Lucas envisioned it that way, when he made the films. That would be retro-active continuity or a retcon.

However, as I stated earlier, you’re whole argument against my statement that Snoke forgot to use his mind reading powers for plot convenience, hinged on the flawed idea that the OT was equally contrived, because Vader did not use mind reading powers on Antilles and Leia.

Applying retro-active continuity for the sake of the argument, and your own words, Vader did attempt to use mind reading on Leia, but failed, and used old fashioned torture to get the information from Antilles.

So, my criticism against Snoke still stands, while your counter argument has been debunked.

Shall we continue, Matt F.?

adywan said:

The Mind Probe is also a jedi power in canon. Who is to say which one he was talking about? 😉 If someone can say that Luke transmitted his thoughts to Vader, instead of vader reading his mind, then i can say that the mind probe that he was talking about is also the established jedi Mind Probe 😉

And, if we are using wiki, this clears up that Vader was using the mind probe (thus reading Luke’;s mind) in ROTJ 😉
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe_(Force_power)

…retro-active continuity.

Either way let’s say you are right. That still doesn’t alter the validity of my criticism, that Snoke conveniently forgot to read Rey’s mind, when he connected Kylo and Rey.

It also means Vader did attempt to read Leia’s mind, but failed, and so there’s no contrivance as claimed by my new friend.

adywan said:

Ryan said:

The OT doesn’t establish that Vader can “read minds”. It’s actually the opposite with Vader having to resort to torture to find out information others have.

So, my theory of what’s going on in the OT is supported by what we see in the OT movies.

It was established that Vader could read minds in ANH. The Mind probe is a Jedi ability to go through peoples minds in order to get useful information. That’s pretty much reading someone’s mind right there. Vader even said in ANH that “Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable” . And he wasn’t talking about the interrogator droid either. that ability was established in the OT. Just because he didn’t just read everyones mind doesn’t mean to say he couldn’t do it. We have seen Jedi have abilities then just don’t use them when they really could do with using them ( jedi speed run, super jump, mind control etc etc) .

Mind probe:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe

I quote:

“Mind probes were used by IT-O Interrogation Units to extract information from captives. The Jedi were trained to resist mind probes.”

“Developed in secret by the Imperial Department of Military Research, IT-Os were used by the Galactic Empire to extract information from prisoners through the use of mind probes. Jedi, however, were known to have been trained to resist mind probes, requiring the use of other methods to procure information from them. One IT-O droid was used to interrogate Kanan Jarrus aboard Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin’s Star Destroyer Sovereign. However, torture was eventually handed over to The Grand Inquisitor. Another IT-O was used aboard the Death Star to extract information from Princess Leia Organa, although she proved to have considerable resistance to the mind probe. The IT-O was later deployed on Yavin 4 during the Empire’s cleanup operations at the former Alliance base.”

I thought this was common knowledge ever since 1977, I guess I was wrong. Vader did not read or attempt to read Leia’s mind.

Matt.F said:

Ryan said:
But let me ask, with all of the interviews that Lucas has done. Has he ever said that OT Vader could “read minds”?

Yes, it’s referenced in A New Hope during the Death Star conference the officer says '‘Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn’t helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fortress."

Motti is obviously mocking Vader’s abilities, without knowing what they entail, which is why this happens:

Vader also states that Leia’s “resistance to the mind probe is considerable”.

Mind probe:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe

This backs up exactly what Adywan has said - that those with the Force are actually BETTER at resisting mind probing than those without. It is the opposite of this convoluted nonsense that DrDre has been tying himself in knots trying to justify.

Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister yet when ANH was released, and thus wasn’t with the Force as you claim. She only became Luke’s sister during the development of ROTJ. The real nonsense is applying retroactive continuity to support your claims. Next you’ll claim Vader was Luke’s father in 1977, because it is stated in it’s sequels.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

This film is really a number of great scenes held together by a terrible plot filled with story contrivances.

This is actually a pretty accurate description; I still love it though.

Hey, I enjoyed it also, and it has some great stuff. I would describe it as a pretty good movie, but only a below average Star Wars film, because of the outlined problems, which mostly relate to how it fits in the saga as a whole.

As a movie I think it has major problems, such as a “ticking clock” that sacrificed moments that would otherwise be extremely important for character development. The flow of scenes in the first act didn’t feel right, and the pace (because of subplots) and tone (because of the excessive jokes) of the movie both felt off. Just my opinion though.

I agree. The movie tries to be many things at the same time in my view.

Matt.F said:

No worries chap, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I very much enjoyed The Last Jedi, and whether you like it or not, it is now part of the Star Wars Saga and so are the ‘rules’ - for want of a better word - established within.

You’re very welcome to decide what to include in your own personal canon and your own special rules chap, wont include deleted scenes, wont include sequels, wont include prequels, etc. Whatever helps you enjoy the films!

Don’t worry I’ll enjoy all the movies in their own terms, and as part of established canon even if it’s not applied consistently (IMO). This however doesn’t prohibit judging a new film against previously established works.

I’m not in the habit of loving a film simply because it has the label Star Wars on it, and am simply expressing my personal opinions and preferences. Anyone is welcome to agree or disagree, and shouldn’t take personal offense.

adywan said:

So Force users can manipulate non-force users to make them say or do what they want , but they can’t read their minds, yet can read the mind pretty easily of a trained force user? yeh, that seems logical and believable 😉

So, why did Vader not read Antilles or Leia’s mind? The Jedi mind trick was already introduced in the first movie. If Vader could extract the location of the rebel base via mind reading he would have, but the film makes abundantly clear that he can’t get the information, even with a mind probe, and they need to resort to extortion (and even that fails). Those are the rules my friend, I didn’t make them.

And, yes Vader DID read luke’s mind in ROTJ. “You’re thoughts betray you. You’re feelings for them are clear, especially…sister…” all this while Luke is trying hard to block Vader from accessing this thoughts. If you think Luke just let all that slip out and projected that direct to Vader, then that really diminishes his character and makes him a very weak individual and a crap jedi. It’s been clear to almost everyone since 1983 that Vader read Luke’s mind. Yet this has only now come up in an poor attempt to say how crap TLJ is.

Luke is trying to bury his feelings as Obi-Wan suggested in order to prevent Vader from finding out, but he let’s the information slip. Luke is not an experienced Jedi yet. He’s also overcome with anger and lashes out at Vader, and only holds back at the last moment. Does this make him a crap Jedi?

The Jedi sensing each other through the Force is like connecting to the internet. The moment you plug in, you’re vulnurable to the other Jedi reading your files, and the only way to prevent that, is to have a proper firewall, which you can only properly maintain, if you have enough experience. If you’re not connected to the internet, your files are safe, but an experienced Jedi can still access your bios, even if they can’t access your file system.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

This film is really a number of great scenes held together by a terrible plot filled with story contrivances.

This is actually a pretty accurate description; I still love it though.

Hey, I enjoyed it also, and it has some great stuff. I would describe it as a pretty good movie, but only a below average Star Wars film, because of the outlined problems, which mostly relate to how it fits in the saga as a whole.

Matt.F said:

I never realised calling someone pedantic was such an insult! Let’s summarise.

The chap seems to have decided in his own head how magical Force mind powers work, apparently those with the Force can read other peoples minds but only other people that also have the Force. There’s no evidence within the films to state this is a ‘rule’.

In order for something to be contrived, it has to be some sort of rule. Seems pretty logical to me. There’s no precedent in the OT of Force users reading non-Force users minds, and since it would contradict the scene where Vader interrogates Leia aboard the Death Star, we can infer that Lucas didn’t intend that Force users could read a non-Force users mind, otherwise we would have seen a Kylo/Poe type of interrogation in the 1977 film.

(in fact there is evidence to say it isn’t but that evidence is in TFA and apparently that’s inadmissible, there’s also > evidence in the deleted opening of ROTJ of people communing long distance but apparently that’s inadmissible too).

This whole criticism is about the ST arbitrary changing the rules, which it then inconsistently applies. Of course you can then not use this change of the rules as evidence that the the OT breaks the rules, since this rule did not exist when the OT was released. The ROTJ deleted scene is not in the films, so can’t really be considered canon, but even so is the communing between two Force users, so it doesn’t add to the argument.

So the chap has decided to arbitrarily call it a rule that Vader cant read minds unless the person he reads has the Force.

It’s not arbitrary. There’s no evidence in the OT that Force users can read ordinary people’s minds, and a number of scenes that wouldn’t make any sense if they could. As such, it’s logical to consider it a rule, just like it’s a rule that Jedi can’t fly. Has anyone ever stated this in the films? No, but considering the fact that there are numerous occasions where flying might have been useful to a Jedi, and they didn’t, we can infer that Jedi can’t fly.

This essentially backs up some assertion he has made that Snoke’s mind powers are at odds with the rest of the Saga, ergo backs up his view that The Last Jedi is rubbish and everyone must know and agree with him how rubbish it is.

The ST is at odds with the rest of the saga, and TLJ is at odds with itself when Snoke only reads minds when the plot requires it. He conveniently forgets to do this earlier, when Rey’s still on Ach-To with Luke to find out their location.

However… Leia has the Force. As Luke says “You have that power too”. She’s a Skywalker. Always has been. She’s filled with the Force. Oodles of Force. Been there the whole time.

You need to learn how to use the Force, before you can tap into it. I delibirately used the term Force-USER, not someone with Force potential.

So I’m afraid this chaps ruling on precisely how this magical, imaginary, fictional, mystical power works does not hold water, because according to his rule Vader should have been able to read her mind.

Case closed. Court adjourned. Good day to you sir!

It’s an argument, you can provide a counter argument and discuss in a civilized manner without being a **** about it.

Ryan said:

DrDre said:

Ryan said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

Snoke somehow forgets to read her mind to get the information he’s been seeking for years. It just doesn’t make sense. There’s no denying it.

However, let’s not pretend these same contrivances exist in the OT, because they don’t. You want to point to a similar contrivance in the OT, please give it your best shot.

Vader also “somehow forgets” to read the mind of Captain Antilles, the captured Rebel Troopers and Princess Leia to find out where the Death Star plans are and where the hidden Rebel base is. There you go, a similar contrivance just as you asked for.

Except the OT never implies a Force user can read a non-Force user’s mind. They are able to influence the weak minded, but Vader still needs a droid when he interrogates Leia aboard the Death Star. As I stated before, it’s a two way street. Luke and Vader are both Force users, Leia and Antilles are not. The only times we see Force users sense another person or their thoughts, it’s with another Force user.

The first time we see a Force user read a non-Force user’s mind is in TFA. You cannot retro-actively apply ST logic to the OT, and claim it is contrived.

Now please stop being such a pedantic killjoy!

You really can’t stop yourself can you. When you read something you don’t agree with, rather then write a coherent argument, you start insulting people. How sad…

Yes! When watching the OT, I never thought of Vader being able to read other’s minds like what we are getting with this new Disney stuff.

I looked at it like Vader and Luke having a telepathic phone call. And so people saying that Vader “read” Luke’s mind to find out Leia was Luke’s twin-sister. I don’t believe that. I look at it like Vader and Luke having a telepathic phone call, and Vader can “sense” that Luke is hiding something. And Vader keeps prodding Luke to reveal his secrets, and then Luke “accidentally” tells Vader telepathically that Leia is his twin-sister and that Obi-Wan had been hiding her.

I mean it’s pretty clear with Vader saying something like “Your feelings have betrayed you”. But I always took from that scene that Vader prodded and got Luke to reveal to him that Leia was his twin-sister and that Obi-Wan had been hiding her from Vader and the Emperor.

Exactly, I completely agree.

The new ST powers retroactively open the door to numerous issues in the OT, that were never there before. However, even if we disregard the OT, and just apply ST logic, TLJ doesn’t explain why Snoke doesn’t read Rey’s mind the moment he links her to Kylo, like he does later in the film, and in stead gambles on the far more complex scenario of having her come to him to ask her where Luke is. Even when she’s right in front of him, he demands she tell him Skywalker’s location, when just moments before he extracted precise information about Luke’s state of mind with zero effort. Should be no trouble for him to get the name of the planet/system where Luke resides without asking.

I think what you are talking about is the Star Wars universe has “rules”. And that the new trilogy came up with new “rules” than what the OT put into play.

But that even with this new trilogy having new “rules”, they don’t consistently follow those rules in these new movies.

I do agree with that. When a universe comes up with “rules”, then they need to stick with those rules in the future and be consistent. I don’t like this new trilogy having different “rules” than what was in the OT. Sure, they could expand on those OT rules, but they shouldn’t make it seem like the OT rules no longer apply to them.

Agree 100%.

Ryan said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

Snoke somehow forgets to read her mind to get the information he’s been seeking for years. It just doesn’t make sense. There’s no denying it.

However, let’s not pretend these same contrivances exist in the OT, because they don’t. You want to point to a similar contrivance in the OT, please give it your best shot.

Vader also “somehow forgets” to read the mind of Captain Antilles, the captured Rebel Troopers and Princess Leia to find out where the Death Star plans are and where the hidden Rebel base is. There you go, a similar contrivance just as you asked for.

Except the OT never implies a Force user can read a non-Force user’s mind. They are able to influence the weak minded, but Vader still needs a droid when he interrogates Leia aboard the Death Star. As I stated before, it’s a two way street. Luke and Vader are both Force users, Leia and Antilles are not. The only times we see Force users sense another person or their thoughts, it’s with another Force user.

The first time we see a Force user read a non-Force user’s mind is in TFA. You cannot retro-actively apply ST logic to the OT, and claim it is contrived.

Now please stop being such a pedantic killjoy!

You really can’t stop yourself can you. When you read something you don’t agree with, rather then write a coherent argument, you start insulting people. How sad…

Yes! When watching the OT, I never thought of Vader being able to read other’s minds like what we are getting with this new Disney stuff.

I looked at it like Vader and Luke having a telepathic phone call. And so people saying that Vader “read” Luke’s mind to find out Leia was Luke’s twin-sister. I don’t believe that. I look at it like Vader and Luke having a telepathic phone call, and Vader can “sense” that Luke is hiding something. And Vader keeps prodding Luke to reveal his secrets, and then Luke “accidentally” tells Vader telepathically that Leia is his twin-sister and that Obi-Wan had been hiding her.

I mean it’s pretty clear with Vader saying something like “Your feelings have betrayed you”. But I always took from that scene that Vader prodded and got Luke to reveal to him that Leia was his twin-sister and that Obi-Wan had been hiding her from Vader and the Emperor.

Exactly, I completely agree.

The new ST powers retroactively open the door to numerous issues in the OT, that were never there before. However, even if we disregard the OT, and just apply ST logic, TLJ doesn’t explain why Snoke doesn’t read Rey’s mind the moment he links her to Kylo, like he does later in the film, and in stead gambles on the far more complex scenario of having her come to him to ask her where Luke is. Even when she’s right in front of him, he demands she tell him Skywalker’s location, when just moments before he extracted precise information about Luke’s state of mind with zero effort. Should be no trouble for him to get the name of the planet/system where Luke resides without asking.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

Snoke somehow forgets to read her mind to get the information he’s been seeking for years. It just doesn’t make sense. There’s no denying it.

However, let’s not pretend these same contrivances exist in the OT, because they don’t. You want to point to a similar contrivance in the OT, please give it your best shot.

Vader also “somehow forgets” to read the mind of Captain Antilles, the captured Rebel Troopers and Princess Leia to find out where the Death Star plans are and where the hidden Rebel base is. There you go, a similar contrivance just as you asked for.

Except the OT never implies a Force user can read a non-Force user’s mind. They are able to influence the weak minded, but Vader still needs a droid when he interrogates Leia aboard the Death Star. As I stated before, it’s a two way street. Luke and Vader are both Force users, Leia and Antilles are not. The only times we see Force users sense another person or their thoughts, it’s with another Force user.

The first time we see a Force user read a non-Force user’s mind is in TFA. You cannot retro-actively apply ST logic to the OT, and claim it is contrived.

Now please stop being such a pedantic killjoy!

You really can’t stop yourself can you. When you read something you don’t agree with, rather then write a coherent argument, you start insulting people. How sad…

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

The issue is not with making a mistake, it’s with acting out of character without providing context or explanation. Luke has seen the terrible crimes of Vader and the consequences of the tyranny he helped create, yet he insists he cannot kill his own father, and stubbornly believes he can be redeemed. Now, it’s possible that Luke has changed in the intervening decades, because of a host of reasons. However, considering the iconic status of the character, and the way he was depicted in the past, we needed a little more than sensing some dark thoughts to have him contemplate the murder of his nephew.

Cannot kill Space Hitler - Contemplates murdering his nephew for symphatizing with Nazi ideology

These two things are in obviously in conflict with each other.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Yes, but by the time ROTJ was released we already knew it was the sixth part of a larger saga, and we also knew the first three episodes would reveal how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. So, while we didn’t get much backstory for Palpatine, we knew we would find out more in the future, as we did eventually. So, while the original six episode saga treats the turn of Anakin to the dark side and the rise of Palpatine as important story points integral to the saga and understanding the state of the galaxy, the ST treats Kylo’s turn and his master’s ascendance as matter of fact. Kylo who also happens to be Han and Leia’s son, and murders his father, is just a bad seed without clear motivation, and his master just some all powerful Force user who somehow managed to take control of the galaxy and turn Ben Solo to the dark side. Since there’s no episode VI 1/2, their respective history is not part of the saga and it doesn’t look like it’s going to be.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

Apart from giving Rey a place in the saga, fans also wanted an explanation for her sudden mastery of the Force without any outside help. As with Luke’s out of character behaviour, if you’re going to change the rules of the game, you had better provide some good explanations, which RJ didn’t do. She’s just a nobody who in the time span of days to weeks is able to achieve what The Chosen One Anakin Skywalker and his son Luke took years to achieve.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

This is all very nice, but we’re still stuck with the Jedi vs Sith dynamic, even if Kylo is not formally a Sith. The movie ultimately tries to make the case the existence of the Jedi and their percieved ownership of the Force is vanity, but then contradicts itself by having Luke state at the end of TLJ, that he’s not the last Jedi. If the idea is to end the Jedi order, commit to it. Why bulldozer over an old building, if you’re going to suggest it will be replaced by a similar one.

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

Which implies we’re right back where ANH ended. That somehow doesn’t seem all that satisfying.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan. He’s able to link Kylo and Rey, and plant manipulated visions in her mind, right? This in of itself creates a host of story issues:

1. Snoke has never met Rey. How is he able to link her mind with Kylo if he doesn’t know who or where she is?

2. If he is somehow able to find her, why doesn’t he know her location? Why go through this elaborate scheme to get her to him, if he can just send an armada to Ach-To and get both her and Luke?

3. Even if he can only find her in the Force, and not in the physical world, why can’t he just read her mind to find out where she is? He can give her manipulated visions, and Kylo can see who her parents are when they are connected. Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

This film is really a number of great scenes held together by a terrible plot filled with story contrivances.

I guess you haven’t seen any of the other movies? Force ghosts, voices, visions, telepathic long distance conversations have been happening throughout. Suddenly it happens in a film that you don’t happen to like and now you choose to call bullshit. I’m sorry that you didn’t like the movie mate, but for gods sake dry your eyes princess and give it a rest.

Yes, and I have no problem with Force ghosts, voices, visions, and telepathic “long” distance conversations. However, the OT applied these things in a consistent manner. When Luke and Vader had their telepathic conversations, they were allways in relatively close proximity. The moment Luke and the gang shot off into hyperspace in TESB, their connection was lost. Vader was able to sense Obi-Wan’s presence on board the Death Star, but not when he was hiding on Tatooine. Vader was able to sense Luke was traveling towards Endor, because he was in close proximity, and Luke acknowledged he was endangering the mission. Additionally Obi-Wan warned Luke to bury his feelings deep down, because it could be made to serve the Emperor. Luke struggles to hide his feelings from Vader, and he finds out about Leia in the throne room, when they’re both in the same space, not across the galaxy. Jedi can feel each other’s presence over long distances, but cannot find their locations. They can also actively try to read someone’s mind if they are in close enough proximity, but the other will know, and can resist the attempt, if they have enough control over the Force.

TFA established Kylo could read Rey’s mind, and find out where Luke is based on the fact that she has seen the map. She is instantly aware of this, and resists him. This is still consistent with the OT, so far so good. In TLJ Snoke is obviously far more powerful, and easily reads Rey’s mind, instantly knowing Luke’s desire to die. He’s able to link her mind with Kylo’s despite not knowing her, and without either of them being aware of him, and feed her false information, but somehow forgets to read her mind to get the information he’s been seeking for years. It just doesn’t make sense. There’s no denying it.

Suddenly it happens in a film that you don’t happen to like and now you choose to call bullshit. I’m sorry that you didn’t like the movie mate, but for gods sake dry your eyes princess and give it a rest.

Please stop with the personal attacks, and stick to discussing the films. You want to accept these plot contrivances, fine, good for you. However, let’s not pretend these same contrivances exist in the OT, because they don’t. You want to point to a similar contrivance in the OT, please give it your best shot. However, until you’re able to find one, stop this weak deflecting of criticism directed at obvious plot inconsistencies by making vague references to the concepts of Force ghosts, voices, visions, and telepathic “long” distance conversations. It’s not about the use of these concepts, it’s how they were used that is at the heart of the problems created by TLJ. RJ wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to show Snoke is far more powerful than any Force user we’ve thusfar met, but in order for his plot to work, Snoke has to wear the idiot hat on multiple occassions.

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan. He’s able to link Kylo and Rey, and plant manipulated visions in her mind, right? This story thread of itself has a host of issues:

1. Snoke has never met Rey. How is he able to link her mind with Kylo if he doesn’t know who or where she is?

2. If he is somehow able to find her, why doesn’t he know her location? Why go through this elaborate scheme to get her to him, if he can just send an armada to Ach-To and get both her and Luke?

3. Even if he can only find her in the Force, and not in the physical world, why can’t he just read her mind to find out where she is? He can give her manipulated visions, and Kylo can see who her parents are when they are connected. Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

This film is really a number of great scenes held together by a terrible plot filled with story contrivances.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

There is no reason for Luke to believe in his Nazi father after ESB.

“But he felt the good in him!”

Yeah but didn’t he also feel the bad in Ben?

There is, because Luke has continually been shown to be a somewhat naive idealist. He risks his life in a suicide mission to destroy the Deathstar. He’s confident, he can make a difference in the battle of Hoth. He goes to save his friends, even though both Obi-Wan and Yoda say he should not. He has a history of believing in a positive outcome despite terrible odds. So in this context, him refusing to believe the father he’s been idealizing all his life is lost makes perfect sense. That was his character. That character would not contemplate the murder of Leia and Han’s son long enough to ignite his lightsaber. It’s the anti-thesis of his character in the OT, and thus requires explanation. Even Mark Hamill who played the character doesn’t buy it, and has gone on record on how he pictures scenarios that Luke lost his wife or something, to become the character he is in TLJ.

Again these criticisms make no sense. I’m sorry you have a problem with the fact that he hasn’t remained the same exact character for 30+ years and that he’s imperfect and relatable.

I don’t have a problem that he hasn’t remained the same character. I have a problem with changing a character off screen without a good explanation. That is inconsistent to me, and thus not relatable. It is a plot hole, and people criticizing plot holes, including the actor who played the character, make perfect sense.

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.