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DrDre

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Post
#1145307
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

Well that’s the odd thing. It’s seen as new, but every major story beat is derived from the OT. It either copies it, or does a variation or the opposite. Either way the events of the OT completely drive the story of the ST.

Post
#1145170
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Then there’s the fact that this entire arc aims to push Rey to the foreground as the next last Jedi, Luke 2.0, new and improved. However, does she deserve this mantle? Luke goes through hell and back before becoming a Jedi, making mistakes, suffering loss of life and limbs. Rey get’s her powers handed to her, and seemingly is never tempted. She’s almost a perfect heroine. The secret of her parents are supposed to be a representation of her personal demons, but it’s ultimately inconsequential. She cries about it, and the next scene she’s back being the hero. When Luke discovered the secret about his father, there was anguish and reflection, setting up the redemption arc of the next film.

Sorry to jump back a couple of pages, but if you remember Empire, Luke had this huge immediate reaction. The rest of his reaction had nothing to do with who his father is, but that Ben didn’t tell him. His litany is “Ben, why didn’t you tell me.” Before we ever see him really deal with it, he is back to his old self by the end of the movie and back to being a hero in the opening act of Jedi. Yes, he asks Yoda to confirm it, but Luke instantly accepted who his father was and carried on. So I’m failing to see how Rey crying about it and back to being a hero in the next scene is much different.

For one ROTJ takes place about a year after TESB, so it’s a difference between several minutes and a year. Secondly, the Luke we meet in ROTJ is not exactly the same character. He’s more mature, and serious, perhaps even a little darker (applying a Force choke early on). Either way, his discovery of his father’s identity leads directly into him questioning his masters, the shock of the confirmation, and the Vader redemption arc. Rey’s discovery as depicted really can’t go anywhere, and she’s already forgotten about it minutes later in the same film, and it is thus totally inconsequential. So, it’s definitely not the same situation.

Post
#1145107
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TV’s Frink said:

If for no other reason than the title of the article.

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631

A List Of Some Of The Times The Last Jedi Told The Older Star Wars Movies To Eat Shit

But also because it’s a good list…and it’s a good (partial) list of things I liked about TLJ.

I guess this is one of those unbalanced articles from the other side. 😃

Good title though, but it does beg the question, if TLJ went out of it’s way to tell the older Star Wars movie to eat shit, doesn’t this imply, it didn’t tell it’s own story, but in stead was guided by the older Star Wars movies, which dictated what it shouldn’t do at almost every turn?

If TLJ is to the other Star Wars films like a negative is to a photo, doesn’t it just invert the same information, and therefore add nothing new of it’s own? 😉

Post
#1145099
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TavorX said:

Another thought since DrDre mentioned it: I also was having issue with how Ben Solo’s only ‘crime’ was having the taint of the dark side in him. But perhaps one could think that Luke is a perfectionist in the prime of his career. Maybe he couldn’t digest it well or fathom that one of his own students could already be lost to the dark side. He simply wasn’t prepared to deal with someone else, a pupil, turning. In that moment, Luke was seeing that future of Kylo Ren being born and causing much anguish. It’s not like his previous Force vision in ESB turned out to be wrong, as yes, his friends were in pain. To Luke at that point basically learned the future is set in stone, and not like how Yoda said it where the future is “always in motion”.

So Luke was freaked out just as much Ben was freaked out. That event created not only Kylo Ren but also broken Luke.

The point is, I can understand Luke feeling the tremendous burden and responsibility of restoring the Jedi order on his own. I can understand Luke getting upset after seeing visions of his Jedi order destroyed, and trying to figure out what to do about this. If there had been some buildup to the scene we witnessed, it might have been more easy to swallow, for example if Ben had hurt one of the students during training, and seemed to enjoy the experience. This would make Luke’s reaction, while still being distraught about what he had just witnessed, understandable. As it is now, the film says Luke saw some dark thoughts and a possible future, and couldn’t control his fear, as a fully trained Jedi should.

Post
#1145093
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous, that Luke ignited his lighsaber.

eh, i respectfully disagree. I think perhaps what you are experiencing is the fact that not everything works for 100% of the audience.

You disagree with what? It wasn’t a very short scene? Did they show us anything about young Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren? Didn’t we get three different versions of the story, time that could have been spent further developing the backstory of Luke/Ben/Snoke? How about all the time spent following Finn and Rose on a pointless mission. Could that entire arc not have been removed to better develop the Luke/Ben/Snoke backstory? Would this not have lead to a better understanding of Luke’s decisions, and made Snoke’s death more meaningful, if he hadn’t been reduced to a plot device?

Post
#1145090
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous (apparently worse than what he’d seen Darth Vader do, a man he refused to believe was lost to the dark side), that made Luke ignite his lighsaber. It is not a well developed plot point, and is ultimately mostly used to give Rey a reason to abandon Luke, and go on her quest to get Kylo back to the light side.

Post
#1145082
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Post
#1145064
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TavorX said:

For some reason, I really dig showing a ‘badass’ Luke in such an unconventional manner. We WANT to see Luke flash his green lightsaber and go absolutely ham on the baddies with a swish and a shoosh. Instead they showed Luke handle the situation differently. Do you think Luke really wanted to duel Vader back in ROTJ? No, he wanted to live up to Yoda’s early teaching of “knowledge and defense, never attack” but Vader managed to push his emotional buttons to make him choose an agressive action.

Here, Luke found a way to help his friends that involved him tapping into the knowledge of the Force in a defensive tactic without laying a finger on Kylo. Would it be fucking badass to see Luke actually duel? Yeah, and it’s also fucking cool to see Star Destroyer, Imperial Walker, and Vader slashing Rebels but ultimately, those were easy cheap tricks to appease fans, to give them what they want without reason (yes, I’m looking at you Rogue One).

Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

If got a duel where he faced Kylo in a traditional manner, well, it would mean Luke’s character was really thrown out the window. What we have is a sorrowful and broken

It would mean there wouldn’t be any Kylo at the end of TLJ. If Rey could beat Kylo in the forrest, surely Luke can beat his former pupil with ease, the same pupil, that needed Rey’s help to defeat those guards in Snoke’s throne room.

Luke that couldn’t handle the burden of recreating the Jedi Order alone after failing basically the galaxy and his friends. Rey can now pick up where he left off, now becoming one with the Force, he has the chance to always be there when Rey needs his guidance. Perhaps this is what Luke needed after all this time, someone strong in the Force without the emotional baggage and weight and cynicism.

Yeah, but Luke was strong in the Force without the cynicism. That was his character, until RJ decided to change things. We already had that hero. Was it really needed to turn Luke into a cynic, such that his successor can look like a hero?

Bottom line though, what I’m saying is that I flinch a little at suggesting there’s disappointment in not having battle-badass Luke. It’s kinda like asking for the fan service treatment found in Rogue One and this is something we need to stay away from. Constraint leads to something more creative, like Force projection, which also helps keep passive Luke in-tact.

I’m not so sure everyone who’s critical wanted badass Luke. I didn’t. I did however expect Luke to have grown beyond the person who allways looks at the horizon, as Yoda says he still does in TLJ. I thought he had grown beyond that in ROTJ, but this film tries to sell the argument, that Luke didn’t grow at all for the last few years, and needs untrained Rey to guide him and tell him what’s right, rather than the other way around.

Post
#1145039
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Nandi said:

https://medium.com/jackndelaney/star-wars-the-last-jedi-forces-old-fans-to-abandon-ship-1809d5e9d031

^ Saying near-on anything in an opinion-piece to drive traffic to it is still a thing then. A 23 year old lad with a title of ‘The Last Jedi Forces Old Fans to Abandon Ship’… saying that he ‘got it’ then demonstrates that he seemingly didn’t.

I don’t get this sort of response. I don’t get the praise for this film, but I would never claim that someone who loves this film and gushes over it doesn’t get it. So, he’s angry, and he vents his frustration. He’s also extremely polite, and respectful in his responses to those that disagree with him as is seen in the responses to his article.

Many writers who do ‘click-bait titles and pieces’ like this seemingly do the same (more explanation or rationale in conversations in comments) - it is a part of generating more fans, appealing to a wider base, and driving more clicks for the next article (as well as using it as a learning tool to what works and doesn’t - nothing wrong with that).

How does the article reflect the title - where it is that TLJ has forced ‘old fans to abandon ship’? Are the new fans ok with it? Younger fans? Is he the old fan? As stated, likely not at 23. Did he mean fans of the old films? Well, if so - he could made that a little clearer - though we are talking about a click-bait article, so maybe it is in his interests not to?

There is very little balance in that article - if the author took a step back from his anger (be careful where that leads 😉) and his bold type and capitalisation when trying and make a point, then maybe he’d have likely answered many of those questions/issues himself.

Is there balance in article that praises this film to high heaven? He’s very critical of the film, and is very straightforward about it, but this doesn’t make any of his personal feelings any more or less valid than anyone else’s opinion.

I don’t value many articles highly that didn’t have some balance or recourse therein - whether positive or negative, yet that’s just me, and my own opinion.

I feel that article actually somehow invalidated some of the genuine criticisms of the film. It read like a bad reddit review. Eurgh.
 

There has do be better articles out there that genuinely address and note the concerns for many of those what didn’t like TLJ?

Well, that’s the way it works apparently. An emotional article stirs up similar emotions in someone who disagrees, who subsequently more or less dismisses the article off hand, who stirs up emotions in this critical user, who then replies emotionally, which then might lead to another emotional response, which then leads to a moderator…o damn!

I’ve read the article before (yesterday - I think, it was posted on here or another site I visit and felt the same then). I gave the writer’s previous article on TPART a read and thought it a lot better reasoned and thought-out than his TLJ piece - though yet again, just my personal opinion.

I understand your POV. It’s sort of funny, that if a movie disappoints especially one like this, where you sort of feel like you’ve reached a dead end after some 35 years of fandom, you get some strange emotions flowing through your body. I really expected to love this film. I really liked TFA, although I sympathized with many of the criticisms. I grew up with the OT, went to see the 1997 SE in the theatre, went to see each of the prequels, and even though I liked them less and less over time (now considering them a mix of good concepts ruined by horrible execution), I enjoyed each of them when I first saw them in the theatre. This is the first time, that I left the theatre after watching a Star Wars film, feeling empty and not really understanding what just happened. I never had the experience of not wanting to see what happens next, and boy does it suck! So, like many fans who ate up the Plinkett reviews of the prequels, you go looking for articles and videos created by people who are able to better express how you feel. I guess this is one of those articles for me. It’s not balanced, but it serves a purpose, at least to me. Sometimes our opinions aren’t balanced, and I don’t really see why they need to be. It doesn’t mean you don’t respect another point of view. In the end all these reviews are rationalisations of our feelings toward this particular film. If you feel strongly about it in either a positive or negative way, I don’t see the harm in an article reflecting those feelings as long as it isn’t offensive.

Post
#1145034
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

oojason said:

Nandi said:

https://medium.com/jackndelaney/star-wars-the-last-jedi-forces-old-fans-to-abandon-ship-1809d5e9d031

^ Saying near-on anything in an opinion-piece to drive traffic to it is still a thing then. A 23 year old lad with a title of ‘The Last Jedi Forces Old Fans to Abandon Ship’… saying that he ‘got it’ then demonstrates that he seemingly didn’t.

I don’t get this sort of response. I don’t get the praise for this film, but I would never claim that someone who loves this film and gushes over it doesn’t get it. So, he’s angry, and he vents his frustration. He’s also extremely polite, and respectful in his responses to those that disagree with him as is seen in the responses to his article.

There is very little balance in that article - if the author took a step back from his anger (be careful where that leads 😉) and his bold type and capitalisation when trying and make a point, then maybe he’d have likely answered many of those questions/issues himself.

Is there balance in article that praises this film to high heaven? He’s very critical of the film, and is very straightforward about it, but this doesn’t make any of his personal feelings any more or less valid than anyone else’s opinion.

I feel that article actually somehow invalidated some of the genuine criticisms of the film. It read like a bad reddit review. Eurgh.
 

There has do be better articles out there that genuinely address and note the concerns for many of those what didn’t like TLJ?

Well, that’s the way it works apparently. An emotional article stirs up similar emotions in someone who disagrees, who subsequently more or less dismisses the article off hand, who stirs up emotions in this critical user, who then replies emotionally, which then might lead to another emotional response, which then leads to a moderator…o damn!

Post
#1145018
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Shopping Maul said:

I really wonder, if Empire versus rebels 2.0, and particulary Luke’s deflation as a character, and Rey’s simultaneous rapid inflation is really worth the journey from a saga perspective. It’s an entertaining enough story, but I don’t really see what it adds to the saga as a whole. I think it actually takes away from it, to be honest, in a much more fundamental way than the PT.

I’ve gotta say Dre, I’m really on the fence here myself. As disappointed as I was/am with ROTJ as a film, I was satisfied with it as a definitive conclusion. I never got into the EU or the Marvel series beyond 1983 because I really felt the story had been told. As fun as it is to have more Star Wars, I’m finding myself increasingly drawn to the ‘head-canon’ notion of sticking with the (unaltered) OT as the real deal and seeing all other SW material as a kind of ‘what if’ fan-fic realm.

Yeah, I’m kind of leaning in the same direction. I’m finding myself wishing they had just abandoned the idea of a sequel trilogy, since that story was essentially finished, and had just immediately began developing their own story set in a different era.

Post
#1145016
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I think it’s fair to ask the question, why the ST is following this trajectory? Is it really trying to tell it’s own story, or is it just trying to redo the OT in some form, but pretending that it isn’t by avoiding the same twists. A lot of the twists and turns, while different from the OT, seem to derive from taking an OT story thread, and doing the opposite. It follows the what if scenario:

What if Vader couldn’t be redeemed?

What if Vader overthrew the Emperor?

What if Yoda refused to train Luke?

Many of the beats of the story of TLJ are very similar to TESB with the ROTJ throne room sequence thrown into the mix. Bad guys attack good guy base. Bad guys chase good guys (albeit a lot slower). Young hero goes to backwater planet to be trained by Jedi Master. Young hero defies her teacher, by going after the bad guy. Rogue betrays good guys. Bad guy fails to turn the hero to the dark side. Heroes end up in a tight spot.

Of course by taking the what if scenario, the ST is abandoning several of the underlying themes of the OT that drive the OT’s twists. Which begs the question, is Star Wars more defined by it’s themes, or by it’s story beats? My view is, that it is the former, and a new Star Wars trilogy that is based on the same themes, but has different story beats is better than a Star Wars trilogy, that is based on different themes, but largely follows the same story beats.

Post
#1145013
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Yoda Is Your Father said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

In The Force Awakens we saw some Senators on balconies or something as they were getting nuked.

That is the one and only piece of evidence that a post-Empire world existed. And now it doesn’t exist, because they were nuked in TFA.

Otherwise it’s exactly as if the Empire never lost power. Perhaps an orderly off-screen transition of power from Palpatine to Snoke occurred in this universe.

It was a complete soft reboot. Somehow they’ve convinced fans to insist that the First Order is just a small little imperial remnant despite all evidence to the contrary.

My biggest issue with TFA is the whole First Order/Resistance thing.

Like… who are they resisting and why? Isn’t the Republic doing anything about these new imperials… why are the resistance hiding and doing stuff secretly when Leia should (probably) be in good stead with the new republic…

It just didn’t make sense and I had to switch off my brain and tell myself “ok, there’s the empire gain and the rebels again and just deal with it”.

I think it just wasn’t developed enough in TFA. The idea was, that the New Republic were appeasing the FO hoping to prevent a new all out open war, but were funding the Resistance in secret, who openly opposed the rising power of the FO. The New Republic sort of resembled Neville Chamberlain, who tried to appease Hitler by giving into his demands in hopes of preventing a second World War. This all failed of course, and as shown in TFA the FO uses the New Republic’s relationship to the Resistance as a pretense for war, destroying the Republic capital.

RJ ignores all this, and uses the opportunity to take the New Republic out of the equation, and rebrands the Resistance rebels. Leia is no longer General Leia, but the Princess again. So, we’re completely back to a small band of rebels who need to restore the Republic (again) by overthrowing the Empire 2.0 controlling the entire galaxy, only this time what took the Empire decades with a process, that ended in the Imperial Senate being disbanded, now happens in a matter of days. The ST thus plays like a highly compressed version of the OT with some twists and shocks thrown in the mix.

Post
#1144993
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Collipso said:

My only problem with TLJ Luke is that I don’t like how they killed him off. I acknowledge your point darthrush, but I guess I just don’t really like the way this particular aspect was handled. It still felt like Luke accomplishing everything he could in TLJ, failed to accomplish the one task he had. He did fail, and he did overcome it and gave hope to the galaxy and to the Resistance, but something feels off. In a way he’s still a failure I think. It just feels like such a small victory to me compared to all the defeats etc.

But I must say that I loved his arc in the movie, and I loved the outcome except for his death.

I honestly think he had more of an arc than any of the protagonists.

I still don’t like it so much. The change in Luke’s character is massive and we only get one 30 sec flashback that set’s it up. He made a mistake, but he had seen the worst and gone through hell before. He admits, he had already lost Kylo. He made a mistake and didn’t try to fix it. He abandoned his friends, and allowed the galaxy to be plunged in a second darkness, while he had the power to do something about it together with his friends.

Then there’s the fact that this entire arc aims to push Rey to the foreground as the next last Jedi, Luke 2.0, new and improved. However, does she deserve this mantle? Luke goes through hell and back before becoming a Jedi, making mistakes, suffering loss of life and limbs. Rey get’s her powers handed to her, and seemingly is never tempted. She’s almost a perfect heroine. The secret of her parents are supposed to be a representation of her personal demons, but it’s ultimately inconsequential. She cries about it, and the next scene she’s back being the hero. When Luke discovered the secret about his father, there was anguish and reflection, setting up the redemption arc of the next film.

There’s also the interesting fact that the OT didn’t really need the PT to tell Anakin’s story. Luke’s story was Anakin’s story. Having the anger in him, taking the quick and easy path like Vader did in TESB by going after his friends, risking falling to the dark side. However, it also shows Luke making the right decisions, where his father made the wrong ones, which ultimately leads to the father following in his sons footsteps, and his redemption. There’s so much subtext in Luke’s journey. Ben Solo’s journey is a cynical one by comparison, and doesn’t feel nearly as well developed.

I really wonder, if Empire versus rebels 2.0, and particulary Luke’s deflation as a character, and Rey’s simultaneous rapid inflation is really worth the journey from a saga perspective. It’s an entertaining enough story, but I don’t really see what it adds to the saga as a whole. I think it actually takes away from it, to be honest, in a much more fundamental way than the PT.

Post
#1144909
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Collipso said:

Killoffpoe has a point, but it’s more against TFA than TLJ. TLJ was the best movie possible from the setup TFA gave us. I also didn’t like how we simply went back to the point where we were at the beginning of Star Wars without any real explanation.
I think Episode VII should’ve been the story told in the flashbacks + the New Republic being set up + the First Order rising silently
TFA should’ve been Episode VIII
TLJ Episode IX

Because, as a lot of people said, it really works just fine as a finale.

I don’t completely agree. TFA showed the central system of the New Republic destroyed, but it also showed the destruction of SKB. Both factions suffered serious loss. That could have been used to create an interesting new dynamic, where the New Republic supported by the Resistance fights the FO. It could have been revealed the New Republic was also working on a super weapon, raising all sorts of moral questions, and bring tension among the good guys, hard liners versus diplomats, or whatever, something different.

However, that didn’t happen. RJ wiped the New Republic off the screen. The FO is taking over in weeks, seemingly unaffected by the destruction of their home base. The Resistance is now the rebellion again, and we’re back at square one. Empire versus rebels. It’s the same dynamic with an even smaller band of rebels struggling against an overwhelming force. We have another last Jedi struggling against a Jedi pupil turned bad. There are diferences and shocking twists, but the main themes are still very similar. I suppose if JJ brings back the Knights of Ren, it would change the dynamic of the fight with Rey having to square off against more than the guy she already beat. That might make things more interesting for me again…

Post
#1144483
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

nmr1723 said:

DrDre said:

nmr1723 said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

You’re talking semantics. He instinctively thought about killing a sleeping boy, his nephew, who hasn’t yet committed any crimes for a split second. The Luke we knew didn’t show those instincts.

I think this is the same Luke that has always looked forward or “looked to the horizons” instead of concentrating on what’s in front of him. Yoda called him out on it again. This is the same Luke that has not learned from his mistakes or teachings. If he was any different, I would have been upset.

I think the point of ROTJ was, that Luke was different, and had learned from his mistakes and teachings. He had also grown beyond his teachers, by seeing the good in Vader when his teachers could not.

Now part of that growth is reversed to make him more human and flawed. That brings new things to the table, but also alters the perspective on the character. Not everyone has to be on board for this. The Luke we meet in TLJ is very different from the one we left in ROTJ. It’s up to each of us to decide if TLJ sufficiently fills the gap, and if they like the moody and fearful Luke, who abandoned his friends and the universe.

When it came to Ben, Luke was scared sh*tless about what he would become. Because of this he made a fleeting decision that he literally backed away from a second later. Luke is not perfect and he’s not the savior of the universe. I felt this made his character more believable in the end. We all make mistakes and make rash decisions that affect our lives. Why should Luke be so different? And again, if hew was concentrating on where he was and what he was doing, he wouldn’t have looked forward, freaked out, and made such a costly mistake.

This is Luke and I loved it.

Like I said it is a different version of Luke as envisioned by RJ. It’s a more complex version, which is interesting, but I can’t blame anyone for missing the optimistic hero of the OT.

Well said. I love the civil conversations we can have about this. In the end, it’s a movie franchise and these are first world problems. I enjoy this fandom even when I may disagree with someone about certain aspects of the film. MTFBWY!

I love this as well! MTFBWYT!

Post
#1144469
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

The best Spider-man movie to date features Peter losing his powers and giving up on being Spidey entirely. The (debatably) best Superman movie also features him losing his powers. I don’t see your point.

Yes, and he discovers he makes a mistake and get’s his powers back. That’s not the same as permanently altering a character.

Isn’t that what Luke does though? Even though he failed, he decides to become the legend one last time (and that may be my favorite scene in movie history). So he, in a way, got his power back, meaning the change wasn’t permanent.

Yes, but the Spider-Man film took much more time to develop the story and explain how Peter Parker came to his decision to give up on his life as a superhero. It wasn’t just a short flashback scene with a few lines of dialogue. I can sort of fill in the gaps, but would have liked to see more of Luke and Kylo before his turn and what motivations Snoke provided for Kylo to allow the darkness into his heart.

Post
#1144453
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:

The best Spider-man movie to date features Peter losing his powers and giving up on being Spidey entirely. The (debatably) best Superman movie also features him losing his powers. I don’t see your point.

Yes, and he discovers he makes a mistake and get’s his powers back. That’s not the same as permanently altering a character.

In the comics Marvel altered Spider-Man history, by having him make a deal with the Devil, and exchange his marriage for his aunt’s life. This story was the biggest retcon in the comic’s history, and is widely considered one of the worst retcons in comic book history, because it made 20 years of comic history irrelevant to future content.

Change can be both good and bad depending on your point of view. It can even be both, which is probably a good description my perspective on TLJ.

Post
#1144447
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I think another poster said it before, that TLJ is both good and bad. It gives us some bold choices both in story and character, that defy expectations. At the same time franchises thrive on expectations by giving us more of the same with some new stuff sprinkled in. In a lot of ways the sameness defines a franchise. Do we really want something new? Do we want to see Indiana Jones grow old? Do we want to see Superman no longer able to fly? Do we want to see Spider-Man deny that with great power comes great responsibility? These are traits, that define these characters. Should a new writer change Spider-Man’s character, or reveal previously unknown flaws, or should he create a new character, or write a new story? These questions don’t have a right or wrong answer. One thing is for sure Star Wars is evolving at a faster rate than ever before.

Post
#1144437
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

nmr1723 said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

You’re talking semantics. He instinctively thought about killing a sleeping boy, his nephew, who hasn’t yet committed any crimes for a split second. The Luke we knew didn’t show those instincts.

I think this is the same Luke that has always looked forward or “looked to the horizons” instead of concentrating on what’s in front of him. Yoda called him out on it again. This is the same Luke that has not learned from his mistakes or teachings. If he was any different, I would have been upset.

I think the point of ROTJ was, that Luke was different, and had learned from his mistakes and teachings. He had also grown beyond his teachers, by seeing the good in Vader when his teachers could not.

Now part of that growth is reversed to make him more human and flawed. That brings new things to the table, but also alters the perspective on the character. Not everyone has to be on board for this. The Luke we meet in TLJ is very different from the one we left in ROTJ. It’s up to each of us to decide if TLJ sufficiently fills the gap, and if they like the moody and fearful Luke, who abandoned his friends and the universe.

When it came to Ben, Luke was scared sh*tless about what he would become. Because of this he made a fleeting decision that he literally backed away from a second later. Luke is not perfect and he’s not the savior of the universe. I felt this made his character more believable in the end. We all make mistakes and make rash decisions that affect our lives. Why should Luke be so different? And again, if hew was concentrating on where he was and what he was doing, he wouldn’t have looked forward, freaked out, and made such a costly mistake.

This is Luke and I loved it.

Like I said it is a different version of Luke as envisioned by RJ. It’s a more complex version, which is interesting, but I can’t blame anyone for missing the optimistic hero of the OT.

Post
#1144408
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

You’re talking semantics. He instinctively thought about killing a sleeping boy, his nephew, who hasn’t yet committed any crimes for a split second. The Luke we knew didn’t show those instincts.

I suppose. I really don’t want to make this feel like i am arguing with you, because you don’t deserve that, but i feel like the things you took from this film are just so different than what i see.

I feel like the film already answered your point. Luke was dead tired of being viewed as the perfect legend. the movie was very explicit about that. and as many other people have shared already, the film really worked this angle in lots of ways. Just think about it, your view of who and what luke is, is exactly what drove him to exile himself in the film. It is a terrible burden to have people think that you are incapable of having human flaws. I LOVED that.

It’s fine. I like these debates. We don’t allways have to agree. There’s no right and wrong position. I thought Mark Hamill gave a great performance, and mostly enjoyed the movie. There are great things in this film, but some things were glossed over too quickly in my view, or underdeveloped.

Post
#1144406
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

also, wasn’t the point of connecting their minds, to trick Rey into coming to him? finding luke from Rey was just a part 2 of the plan, not the whole plan. Rey was someone to be dealt with on her own based on her force use in TFA, snoke knew this.

Yeah, but why trick Rey to come to him, if he can send an armada to come to them, and get both Rey and Luke?

this is again your thinking though. no evidence that he knows where they are!

No, but he should know. He can link their minds, get Kylo to read Rey’s mind to see hidden memories of her parents, get them to see each other, and touch each other, so he should be able to read her mind and get the information about their location. If he can make Rey and Kylo touch each other, he should be able to touch her himself, and choke the life out of her.

I don’t know, maybe he just likes to screw with their minds.

Post
#1144404
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

You’re talking semantics. He instinctively thought about killing a sleeping boy, his nephew, who hasn’t yet committed any crimes for a split second. The Luke we knew didn’t show those instincts.