DrDre

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either, but I guess I’m one of the older generation too.

Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.

Anyway, I think it’s official. That was Luke’s grumpy twin brother in TLJ: Jake Skywalker. Obi-Wan and Yoda never liked that guy, and so they forgot to mention him to Luke, hoping he would take a hint and go away.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

I liked how Rey’s parents are nobodies. It was one of the few “twists” I liked in execution and idea. I honestly wouldn’t believe if they said that she had been trained as a child or a toddler and learned how to do mind tricks then, so I always considered her and this excuse way too unrealistic. She was always unbelievable, but very charismatic, which makes me care for her. I really liked how she isn’t connected to anyone, and the theme of the movie that anyone could be a hero and powerful with the force. They pulled that from The Empire Strikes Back, and it was refreshing. One of the things I really didn’t like about the prequels was how the whole “one must be dedicated to the force in order to connect and be strong with it” was pretty much reduced to “who won the biological lottery”. This movie turned that around. So that was pretty cool.

Sure, but even before the whole concept of midi-chlorians in 1977 George Lucas wrote:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

This has been the basis for the entire OT. Anyone can do it, but it’s not something you just get. You have to learn many years. This is how it was depicted with Luke in the OT, who went from a twenty year old youngster learning a few basics from Obi-Wan to becoming a full Jedi over the period of five years. This is also how it was depicted in the PT, despite midi-chlorians, where there were academies to train young students. The ST ignores all this, by having Rey just being able to perform amazing feats in a matter of days. It just doesn’t sit right with me.

Certainly, I totally agree with you. Theme wise though, I think it was emphasized in this movie the same way it was in the OT, and I quite liked that.

Sure, I prefer the idea of Force potential not being linked to your genetic makeup.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

MalàStrana said:

What if IX makes her the Chosen One then ? (but it would go against the “socialist” view of the movie about the Force which belongs to everyone, no-one included). If you think about it, Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi of the Order but thanks to Obi-Wan restraints he never got too much powerful (TPM and then AOTC deal with that actually) while growing mistrust against the Order (TCW/ROTS deal with that as well). Imagine if he had stayed alone a a shitty planet, would he have become like Rey, very powerful in a matter of days ?
But I agree about Rey nonetheless, I has always been my main criticism against TFA.

Yeah, but even Anakin needed years of training to become a Jedi. He could see things before they happen, which was presented as a trait of someone with a lot of Force potential, but to use Jedi mind tricks, levitation, and to be proficient with a lightsaber required a lot of effort.

This scene in TESB clashes with the final scenes of TLJ in a major way:

Again, these are ‘perceived continuity clashes’ that you’re pulling out simply to try and discredit the new movies.

Now that you’re using the PT here’s one for you - why didn’t Ben take Luke to be trained by Yoda at a much younger age?

We know he has Skywalker blood - the Force is biological right? We know in ESB that Yoda thinks Luke should have been trained far younger. Why did Kenobi leave it so long?

There is no good answer - and nit picking and holding these new films to such a pedantic standard is just a double standard.

There’s nothing pedantic about it. I repeat George Lucas wrote in 1977:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

The OT shows Luke taking many years to learn to control it. The PT does the same. Luke’s lack of control is one of the important story threads in TESB. Rey learns this stuff in days. That’s not a minor nitpick. It’s a huge inconsistency.

If you want an in-universe answers for why Obi-Wan didn’t train Luke at a younger age:

1. During the early days of the Empire the Jedi were still being actively hunted. It was too dangerous. How do you hide a young kid using the Force in that atmosphere?
2. The Rebellion’s first victory, when they stole the Death Star plans, was the spark that lit the fire in the OT. Before that Luke would have to face off the Empire alone with his laser sword. That would have been a suicide mission.
3. Luke’s uncle Owen wasn’t a fan of old Ben, as is evident in ANH, and actively prevented Luke from interacting with that crazy old wizard.

Either way, I’ve criticized instances where the PT is inconsistent with the OT also, so using the PT inconsistencies as a defense for ST inconsistencies doesn’t fly with me. The inconsistencies of the PT were one of the many reasons why they were widely criticized. So, to now accept the same issues in the ST and carry on as if nothing’s wrong, that would really be having double standards in my book.

Collipso said:

I liked how Rey’s parents are nobodies. It was one of the few “twists” I liked in execution and idea. I honestly wouldn’t believe if they said that she had been trained as a child or a toddler and learned how to do mind tricks then, so I always considered her and this excuse way too unrealistic. She was always unbelievable, but very charismatic, which makes me care for her. I really liked how she isn’t connected to anyone, and the theme of the movie that anyone could be a hero and powerful with the force. They pulled that from The Empire Strikes Back, and it was refreshing. One of the things I really didn’t like about the prequels was how the whole “one must be dedicated to the force in order to connect and be strong with it” was pretty much reduced to “who won the biological lottery”. This movie turned that around. So that was pretty cool.

Sure, but even before the whole concept of midi-chlorians in 1977 George Lucas wrote:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

This has been the basis for the entire OT. Anyone can do it, but it’s not something you just get. You have to learn many years. This is how it was depicted with Luke in the OT, who went from a twenty year old youngster learning a few basics from Obi-Wan to becoming a full Jedi over the period of five years. This is also how it was depicted in the PT, despite midi-chlorians, where there were academies to train young students. The ST ignores all this, by having Rey just being able to perform amazing feats in a matter of days. It just doesn’t sit right with me.

MalàStrana said:

What if IX makes her the Chosen One then ? (but it would go against the “socialist” view of the movie about the Force which belongs to everyone, no-one included). If you think about it, Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi of the Order but thanks to Obi-Wan restraints he never got too much powerful (TPM and then AOTC deal with that actually) while growing mistrust against the Order (TCW/ROTS deal with that as well). Imagine if he had stayed alone a a shitty planet, would he have become like Rey, very powerful in a matter of days ?
But I agree about Rey nonetheless, I has always been my main criticism against TFA.

Yeah, but even Anakin needed years of training to become a Jedi. He could see things before they happen, which was presented as a trait of someone with a lot of Force potential, but to use Jedi mind tricks, levitation, and to be proficient with a lightsaber required a lot of effort.

This scene in TESB clashes with the final scenes of TLJ in a major way:

MalàStrana said:

Ryan said:
I would not be surprised if you see fan edits of TFA where they edit out a lot of Rey’s parent stuff. I think the Rey’s parent stuff in TFA will feel like a drag on repeated viewings. That’s assuming nothing changes on that in 9.

But knowing she really is “no one” and not a Skywalker/whatever blood relative is one of the strongest ideas of the movie (and RJ takes his time to make that reveal, so in a way it’s quite respectful of the material). By making Rey not-Skywalker, he gives the Saga new horizons (I don’t like the Rey character but this idea is great me-think).

Yeah, but one of the underlying issues was, that in TFA Rey was already so proficient in using the Force, that the only way to reconcile this with the workings of the Star Wars universe was, that she had been trained at a young age, and then abandoned on Jakku to protect her from Snoke.

By making her a nobody her character simly doesn’t rhyme with the rest of the Star Wars saga, magically getting access to these amazing powers without having to put in the commitment, and also bypassing the idea, that becoming a Jedi involves some sort of test of character, like the trials mentioned in the PT, and Luke facing Vader again in the OT.

I’ve often defended Rey’s character against accusations of her being a Mary Sue on the basis that her proficiency in the Force was linked to her past, but must now conclude, that as she is depicted in TLJ, those accusations may have merit. Her powers and ability to get out of trouble stretch believability.

Ryan said:

TK-949 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw

OMG! They didn’t like it. They didn’t like a movie I like! Now I don’t know, what I’m gonna do with rest of my life! I think I’m gonna hate them now.

I still haven’t watched RedLetterMedia’s review of The Force Awakens. Do they “like” that movie?

They thought it was an entertaining movie with some good characters, but that it was too derivative. Overall, I think they liked it mostly, but felt and still feel Star Wars is in the recycling business. TFA actually made RLM’s Mr. Plinkett praise the the prequels for trying to do something original.

MalàStrana said:

adywan said:

MalàStrana said:

KILLOFFPOE said:
Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

We can still presume that Luke lied to Leia about that when he left everything behind ?

But Snoke did turn Ben. He had already seduced Ben before Luke’s moment of weakness.

I’ve only seen TLJ once so far, so is it established ? (I really don’t remember when Snoke got into the Luke/Ben equation)

I think Luke says something like “but Snoke had already won his heart”, when he’s relating the moment he lost Kylo for good.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

I’m out of here.

Using the r-word to describe a fictional character is apparently bad enough for a moderator to weigh in, but directly calling a user an asshole and telling them to fuck off is not?!!! If mr. Frink objected to the use of the word, he could have just said so in a civilized manner. I would have apologized, and that would have been the end of it.

I’ve outstayed my welcome on these boards. Hasta la vista baby.

Wish some people would stick to their promises…

Yeah, and I wish some users would grow up, and stop attacking other users, but guess what? That’s never going to happen.

Perhaps you should stay on topic.

Good article from a self-proclaimed fan, that I agree with:

Title: The Last Jedi was more a finale than a middle act. That’s not good for Episode 9.

https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/17/16787500/star-wars-the-last-jedi-story-rian-johnson-episode-9-jj-abrams

I really get the sense from TLJ, that RJ made the film he wanted to make, and didn’t really care that it was supposed to be part of a greater narrative both in terms of the saga, and in terms of the third trilogy. He’s resolved pretty much every story thread that was set up by TFA, and has provided very little connective tissue to the rest of the saga, or setups for future installments. Much of the hype for TLJ was based on fans speculating about the outcome for setups of TFA, and how it will connect to the characters and the rest of the saga. RJ has effectively killed that in my view, which I think is a shame.

Nandi said:

I was hopping there would be something more in the dark cave - not necessary what Luke faced, but something. Also that Rey narative from third person felt weird “I was not afraid then, etc” (which is something I feel movie is suffering from, too much explanation, even justification), the scene looked cool but it all ended with mirror “trip”.

The same thing is true to an extend for Kylo. He’s obviously in a place of power at the end, but I don’t really feel the character has changed from the ending of TFA to the ending of TLJ. It seemed like it for a while, but then the reset button was hit in the throne room sequence.

chyron8472 said:

That isn’t to say she doesn’t have personal demons. We just don’t know what they are besides her parents.

And I still say Ren could have been lying. Someone more than Ren ought to know who they were. After all, Luke got confirmation from Yoda in ROTJ.

Of course, but Luke got significant development, by having to resist the dark side, learning that his father was Darth Vader, and losing a limb. I don’t see Rey really being challenged. She makes all the right decisions within the blink of an eye, lectures and defeats a Jedi Master, and the one thing that appeared to torment her in TFA, is made to seem a waste of time, risking her becoming a bland character, who’s only traits are being better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else. I mean, how is she supposed to grow in the next film?

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Then there’s the fact that this entire arc aims to push Rey to the foreground as the next last Jedi, Luke 2.0, new and improved. However, does she deserve this mantle? Luke goes through hell and back before becoming a Jedi, making mistakes, suffering loss of life and limbs. Rey get’s her powers handed to her, and seemingly is never tempted. She’s almost a perfect heroine. The secret of her parents are supposed to be a representation of her personal demons, but it’s ultimately inconsequential. She cries about it, and the next scene she’s back being the hero. When Luke discovered the secret about his father, there was anguish and reflection, setting up the redemption arc of the next film.

Sorry to jump back a couple of pages, but if you remember Empire, Luke had this huge immediate reaction. The rest of his reaction had nothing to do with who his father is, but that Ben didn’t tell him. His litany is “Ben, why didn’t you tell me.” Before we ever see him really deal with it, he is back to his old self by the end of the movie and back to being a hero in the opening act of Jedi. Yes, he asks Yoda to confirm it, but Luke instantly accepted who his father was and carried on. So I’m failing to see how Rey crying about it and back to being a hero in the next scene is much different.

For one ROTJ takes place about a year after TESB, so it’s a difference between several minutes and a year. Secondly, the Luke we meet in ROTJ is not exactly the same character. He’s more mature, and serious, perhaps even a little darker (applying a Force choke early on). Either way, his discovery of his father’s identity leads directly into him questioning his masters, the shock of the confirmation, and the Vader redemption arc. Rey’s discovery as depicted really can’t go anywhere, and she’s already forgotten about it minutes later in the same film, and it is thus totally inconsequential. So, it’s definitely not the same situation.

One of the things that I didn’t point out was that it has been SW fans who have been dying to know who Rey’s parents are. Rey just wanted them to come back. Her revelation isn’t quite the same as Luke’s in TESB (and I was talking about how nomral he acted in the ending scene as he gets his new hand more than how he acted a year later in ROTJ). Rey learns her parents are nobody special (not a real surprise for her) whereas Luke learns the most evil creature in the Galaxy is his father. Quite a difference.

I agree, but Rey’s reaction is only part of the criticism. The main criticism is, that Rey is too perfect and doesn’t have any significant personal demons to overcome. The issue with her parents was the only anchor for some personal development, but it was ultimately set up quite well in TFA, then cast aside very quickly in TLJ, and made to be insignificant.

Jay said:

Frink has been banned for the “asshole” thing. I’m going to be reviewing the thread myself in the coming days and will probably issue additional bans.

I haven’t seen the movie yet, so thanks guys.

I missed some private messages, and have made the situation worse.

Is it too late to unban Frink, Jay? This board would not be the same without him. Having been given some context, I can understand his reaction. I was being very insensitive. I apologize to everyone here for being a dick, especially to Frink.

I’m out of here.

Using the r-word to describe a fictional character is apparently bad enough for a moderator to weigh in, but directly calling a user an asshole and telling them to fuck off is not?!!! If mr. Frink objected to the use of the word, he could have just said so in a civilized manner. I would have apologized, and that would have been the end of it.

I’ve outstayed my welcome on these boards. Hasta la vista baby.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You guys need to grow up. Frink isn’t the only who has a problem with that word.

I see the F-word floating around here quite often. In fact I think someone used it just now. I don’t like that one. Shall we compile a list of bad words and agree not to use them, or are we going to continue applying double standards?

I’ll rephrase: grow the fuck up. If you don’t understand the difference between the r-word and the f-word, that’s your problem. Educate yourself, I’m not going to explain it for you.

Yeah, I think someone is crossing some lines here. I won’t dignify this one with an answer…

Fine man. Sorry I can’t respect someone who doesn’t respect others.

I never attacked anyone personally. I disrespected a fictional character. Not the same thing, mate.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You guys need to grow up. Frink isn’t the only who has a problem with that word.

I see the F-word floating around here quite often. In fact I think someone used it just now. I don’t like that one. Shall we compile a list of bad words and agree not to use them, or are we going to continue applying double standards?

I’ll rephrase: grow the fuck up. If you don’t understand the difference between the r-word and the f-word, that’s your problem. Educate yourself, I’m not going to explain it for you.

Yeah, I think someone is crossing some lines here, and confusing opinion with fact. I won’t dignify this one with an answer…

DominicCobb said:

You guys need to grow up. Frink isn’t the only who has a problem with that word.

I see the F-word floating around here quite often. In fact I think someone used it just now. I don’t like that one. Shall we compile a list of bad words and agree not to use them, or are we going to continue applying double standards?

Let’s just drop the subject. I said I won’t be using that word anymore.

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

I have to admit, that’s a pretty weak defense.

“Retard” as an insult is offensive, but “asshole” is not. Telling people to “fuck off” is not, as being belligerent is also not.
Umm… okay.

Your objection is noted.

Using “retard” as an insult makes you an asshole. Sorry.

I see. Calling someone dumb is also insulting. If I call Snoke a dumb character would that also be passing those high and mightly standards of yours? How about Snoke is ugly? Is that an insult, which makes me an asshole, or simply the truth?

I think insulting a fictional character is not really on the same level of dickery as insulting real people, but hey that’s me. Anyways, I will avoid the r-word with regards to fictional characters from now on, as it seems to be inflammatory to some.

Frink loves being outraged. Best to just ignore him.

Yeah, I know. I’ve just never been on the recieving end. It’s a refreshing experience.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

I have to admit, that’s a pretty weak defense.

“Retard” as an insult is offensive, but “asshole” is not. Telling people to “fuck off” is not, as being belligerent is also not.
Umm… okay.

Your objection is noted.

Using “retard” as an insult makes you an asshole. Sorry.

I see. Calling a real person dumb is also insulting. If I call Snoke a dumb character would that also be crossing the line? How about Snoke is ugly? Is that an insult, which makes me an asshole, or simply the truth?

I think insulting a fictional character is not really on the same level of dickery as insulting real people, but hey that’s me. Anyways, I will avoid the r-word with regards to fictional characters from now on, as it seems to be inflammatory to some.

Double post.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

I’m saying the scene is undercut by the lack of development of the Snoke character, and the way the character is presented as all knowing, except when he needs to die, at which point he suddenly becomes a retard. Had the character of Snoke been properly set up, the twist would have been far more effective.

For me it’s quite simple. Star Wars is a language, that has a fairly limited vocabulary, which are the story beats. It also has grammar, which are the rules of the universe, such as becoming a Jedi requires dedication and a lot of training. George Lucas and his collaborators have used this language to make some beautiful sentences, and poems.

What the creators of the ST have done is to change the order of the words in hopes of creating new sentences, and poems. With TFA fans complained the poems are too similar to previous ones. TLJ has opted to more dramatically change the order of the words, but I and a few others argue it hasn’t added many new words to the vocabulary. We also argue it doesn’t allways use the Star Wars grammar. To some of us the sentences have become incomprehensable because of this.

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.

That’s not plot twist galore, that’s a variation.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/plot_twist

plot twist
noun

An unexpected development in a book, film, television program, etc.

 

You can’t possibly tell me with a straight face that you expected Snoke to die when he did. Now that he died in the second film, that makes him no longer akin to the Emperor, since now there is a whole third of the trilogy without him. Palpatine was an integral part of the third act of Return of the Jedi. But Snoke is dead. Snoke is now no longer a part of the story going forward. And that’s a twist because everyone expected him to play the part of the Emperor from start to finish.

However, the throne room sequence is directly derived from the OT, and the twist comes from it’s position in the trilogy, and the fact that Kylo stays evil. However, the question is whether these choices are driven by overarching story themes, or whether it’s driven by the desire to avoid the outcomes of the OT.

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.