David Stewart is a very smart guy; I’ve been following his channel since his TFA review, and so far he’s been nailing it with his TLJ reviews.
What I like about him, is that even if you don’t agree with him, he’s at least put a lot of thought into it, and he knows a lot about the movements in writing, and writing in general.
Here’s “the guy” again, who’s actually a fantasy writer, with his spoiler review of TLJ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdobc7jtQo
He asks a good question, that I actually had not considered (and neither did RJ apparently): if admiral Holdo can lightspeed through Snoke’s ship to allow the rebels to escape, and we know they’re going pick them off one by one once the chase begins at the start of the film, why didn’t any of the rebels (or better yet a droid) sacrifice themselves at the beginning of the plot by having one of the cruisers lightspeed through Snokes ship, such that everyone can escape?
I’m not saying that the Jedi are evil. Their teachings, however, seem to create as many problems as they solve which is why I’m hopeful that in Episode 9 Rey grows beyond their rules and begins a far better practice.
I agree, and I think the film suggests that will be the case.
It certainly does from a certain point of view. She’s learned next to nothing from the last jedi, and has to figure everything out for herself. That pretty much guarantees a different practise.
Sorry, I will shut up now… 😉
I like discussing with people who think differently than I do about it, tbh.
Same, although sometimes it feels like you talking to a brick wall.
Then bring a sledge hammer. 😉
I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I should restrict myself to checking in on Adywan’s progress in the Fan Edit section of this site.
I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.
You shouldn’t let other people ruin your movie experience. So, I feel differently about the film than you, but it’s just my opinion. I’m frustrated with the film, and writing about it is a way to deal with those frustrations, but no offense meant. I don’t hate the Last Jedi, and I like it as a sci-fi/fantasy movie, but I personally don’t like where the franchise is heading, and how it all connects to the past. So, I guess the next generation of Star Wars is not really meant for me. I hoped it would, but we don’t allways get what we hope for. You obviously feel very different, and that’s great, because that will at least guarantee the franchise lives on after grumpy old men like me have left the building.
Ha, Dre - you’ve proven nothing!
It’s not about proving anything. It’s about writing a coherent argument, rather than just spend your time qualifying other people’s argumentd. It’s allways very easy to stand on the sideline, and yell: “Yeah, your argument sucks!”.
You have an issue with Rey, but Luke did his “massive” Dagobah training in what… around 48 hours or so.
I again paraphrase Lucas’ words on the subject:
"The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”
You have to study hard, and you can do it on your own. Luke spent the three years between ANH and TESB honing his Force skills after Obi-Wan had shown him the basics. You may remember, he was able to do a Force pull at the start of TESB. He then got trained by Yoda on Dagobah for a period that may have several days, or more. It does take time to travel through space, you know, and the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across, meaning it would take 120,000 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other at lightspeed. The Millenium Falcon can travel .5 past light speed, whatever that may be. Even though the movie intercuts between different scenes, this does not automatically imply these events are happening at the same time.
It’s true, if you applied your level of nitpicking to Empire Strikes Back you’d rip it to shreds but saying that The Last Jedi fails is ‘selective’ in the extreme.
My suggestion for those grown men who choose to nitpick - and I don’t know whether this applies to yourself or not, this is a general suggestion - would be to go and watch the movie with children. Whether your own kids or a nephew, and see it through their eyes. It might make you remember some of the magic and escapism you felt when you first watched ESB as a child.
I still remember that magic very well, and all of those movies can withstand my level of nitpicking very well. You’ve yet to come up with a single argument, that shows the original films having the same level of inconsistency among themselves (and I’m mostly restricting myself to the OT, since I’m not much of a PT fan).
In theory every trooper can be a robot.
Roger, roger…
Sorry to keep banging on about this, but this really grinds my gears. Just to point out how poorly concieved TLJ is, and how it undermines the earlier films, here’s an image:
The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.
-Edit-
DrDre, I accidentally added my comments to your post when I meant to quote. I’ve restored your post and quoted further down the page. That’s the reason it shows your post was edited. Sorry about that.
AnchorheadDrDre, once again you’re nitpicking in an overtly pedantic fashion simply designed to pick apart The Last Jedi, and you’re being blinkered to the fact that the Star Wars Saga has always been a space ‘fantasy’ rather than sci-fi.
I’ve already given ample explanation why the argument against Rey’s sudden Force powers is anything but pedantic, but if you want to accept such blatant disregard for Lucas’ creation and the subtext, and themes therein, in order to endorse what I percieve to be an endless string of ever more diluted copies of an original creation, be my guest.
If you’d been the man you are now the first time you had seen Empire Strikes Back then I am sure you would be the one telling everyone how ridiculous it was that the Snowspeeders kept flying in front of the AT AT Walkers, when all they needed to do was flank around and attack them from the rear. They would have had all day to shoot them and fire their cables.
I’m getting a bit tired of you playing it ad hominum. Restrict your comments to the films. Those are the rules of this forum. You would do well to read, and digest them. Perhaps it would be a good idea to come up with a good counterargument, rather than mostly restricting yourself to qualifying other people’s arguments.
What’s to stop some of those AT AT’s from just turning around and shooting the snow speeders coming from the rear, while the rest just march on to the base? The speeders still have to fly around the AT AT’s to use the cables, and shooting the AT AT’s has little effect on their armor, unless they manage to get them to the ground.
If you’d been the man you are now you’d have failed to accept that Han, Chewie and Leia could have walked around in the Slug cave ‘in space’ without suits on.
This is a space fantasy, all you’re doing is killing it for yourself and others.
I can accept people walking around in a space slug, which apparently have some sort of atmosphere inside their bodies, if those are the in-universe rules. I can’t accept people walking around in a space slug in one film, and then not being able to walk in a space slug in the next film, which you seem prepared to do.
^ In hindsight, I think that supposed to be a cheeky Hardware Wars reference. LOL
This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:
Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676
I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.
I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.
In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.
People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.
He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.
Yeah, but that’s what I don’t buy. How is the galaxy better off without him? What could be worse than the Empire he helped bring down? What could be worse than allowing his nephew and his new master to restore that tyranny? How can that be protecting the galaxy? It just doesn’t make any sense.
I mean, as much as I disagree with the “Jedi are bad” crowd, there were some flaws in the Jedi’s dogmatic ways, and I suppose Luke was basing it off of that. Giving people the ability to tap into that much power is dangerous in and of itself, and Luke didn’t want to spread the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo Ren. Maybe “noble act of protection” was a poor choice of words, but his hiding himself and trying to end the Jedi for good is rooted in some hero complex where he believed the galaxy was better off without a group of people having that power. The force belongs to no one. Violence begets violence. That whole thing.
That still doesn’t make much sense. Snoke and Kylo are still out there, so by ending the Jedi, and taking himself out of the equation, he ensures a future dark side cult will rule the galaxy for all eternity. At that point he’s still the most powerful Jedi in existence, and so even if he had decided that the Jedi should end with him, there’s no reason for him to not do everything in his power to stop Snoke and Kylo together with the Resistance. If they succeeded, he could go to an island to die, ending the Jedi in an era of peace. If they failed, he would be dead, and the net result would be no different than if he immediately went to an island to die. Seems pretty logical to me, that he really only had one choice, and that’s to take on the FO. Anything else is madness.
This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:
Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676
I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.
I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.
In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.
People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.
He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.
Yeah, but that’s what I don’t buy. How is the galaxy better off without him? What could be worse than the Empire he helped bring down? What could be worse than allowing his nephew and his new master to restore that tyranny? How can that be protecting the galaxy? It just doesn’t make any sense. They make it seem Luke completely lost his mind, not being able to see the obvious.
Ocrop27 said:
For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father.
He did fail as a Jedi. For one Jedi are supposed to control their impulses, to think before they act. That’s the responsibility that goes with great power. Secondly, even if we accept this failing, he greatly compounds this failure by not attempting to fix his mistake. He realised what he was doing, and then turned his back on the galaxy and his friends. Snoke was able to strengthen his hold on Ben, and Luke’s failure to act, ultimately leads to the death of his friend Han, and the FO overrunning the galaxy. Remember, the entire premise of the ST is, that they need Luke Skywalker to achieve their goal of restoring freedom. The character of Luke Skywalker has been completely eviscerated, and for what? To replace him with another new hope, who unlike Luke get’s her power and status just handed to her.
NFBisms said:
I don’t even think it’s the same situation/plot. Maybe you disagree with the decision to have Luke cut himself off from the galaxy in the first place, but that alone is enough to be a different story with different themes. Maybe TFA set up a trajectory like the one you describe, but even Ben’s First Order is now motivated by burning down all the old institutions to begin a new world order, as opposed to the OT Empire just wishing to maintain its hold on the galaxy. It looks the same on a superficial level, I guess, but I do think it is a “different problem that the old solution can’t fix.”
I don’t really see where the FO is that different from the Empire presented in TESB after the destruction of the Death Star. They’re a military power controlling most of the galaxy. I’ve heard very little about a new world order, and how that system is supposed to be so different from the previous dictatorship that ruled the galaxy.
Obi-Wan and Yoda were hiding to watch over Luke until he was ready to begin his Jedi training. On the other hand, Old Luke at the start of TLJ has no intention of doing anything for the galaxy anymore. He doesn’t even know Han is dead or even what is happening in the galaxy. That it even needed his help.
I think the entire scenario surrounding Luke’s abandonment of his ideals and values are in part why this trilogy betrays the spirit of the earlier films. In order for the new hero to replace the old one, the old one has to take himself out of commission contrary to everything that character represented for four decades, a cheat of sorts. It sacrifices the old solution to the problem of a galaxy wide dictatorship, namely Luke and the New Republic for the new solution represented by Rey, and whatever might become of those few dozen rebels flying off in the Millenium Falcon at the end of TLJ.
I guess I just don’t think new additions to the franchise can ruin what came before it for me. The prequels didn’t ruin the original trilogy to me. And while I am welcoming of the ST’s new direction, I don’t even think it takes away from the OT. If anything, it’s just an expansion of it. Just another way to look at it. Doesn’t make what those movies have to say any less important.
I don’t know. If a creator writes a story with certain themes and messages, and then another creator claims to expand on, and eventually finish that story (it’s all supposed to be one nine part saga, no?), but actively undermines those themes and messages (IMO), I think that presents a problem. I think a creator should be true to the material. If RJ wanted to take things in a completely different direction, I think he should have used his own vehicle, the new trilogy, to do it, and even then not all bets are off. If he really wants to do his own thing, he should create his own universe.
Being a sphere, the Death Star is 160 km wide from every direction. That’s substantially larger than a flat ship with a 60 km wingspan. Anyway, onscreen it didn’t look that much bigger than the Executor, so I don’t really give a shit what the official numbers are.
Yeah, but the part of the wing the cruiser sliced off like butter was about 20,000 meters wide. The FO Star Destroyers are also quite a bit bigger than the Imperial Star Destroyer. Either way the DS would have sustained major damage, to the point where it would no longer be oeprational, especially if the cruisers had pointed their attack at the DS disc.
Sorry to keep banging on about this, but this really grinds my gears. Just to point out how poorly concieved TLJ is, and how it undermines the earlier films, here’s an image:
The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.
-Edit-
DrDre, I accidentally added my comments to your post when I meant to quote. I’ve restored your post and quoted further down the page. That’s the reason it shows your post was edited. Sorry about that.
Anchorhead
I don’t agree with the reading that Obi-Wan and Yoda were just using Luke, but I don’t think TLJ ruins that which came before it. I know it’s kind of a paradox, but TLJ is both dependent on the the OT, while also trying to be its own thing. It takes the franchise in a different direction for sure, and you kind of have to separate it from the thematic heart of the originals.
It’s not an exact comparison, but think Logan relative to the original X-Men trilogy.
…
That being said, TLJ isn’t really as gray or cynical as people are making it out to be. I don’t think it was saying the Jedi are evil.
I think it’s still a very traditional good vs evil story, it just places less faith in ideals alone and gives less credit to principles making a hero. It embraces the human condition and makes that which is in all of us - our ability to fail and move on - good enough to be heroes. In some ways, that’s more optimistic than saying we have to work super hard just to be good people. It’s not saying that the Jedi were super bad just because they were flawed, just that they don’t have a patent on being able to save the galaxy.
Sometimes trying too hard to be the hero can backfire, like with Poe, Finn, and Rose - and in the case of Luke, who held himself to such high expectations of heroism that he exiled himself after failure (which, thinking the galaxy is better off without you is still kind of an extension of some bullshit hero complex).
You don’t have to try to be the hero - as long as you do good, there’s one in there - and your failures, flaws, and screw ups won’t take that away as long as you get back up.
EDIT: honestly I wish people wouldn’t ignore my posts
Yes, but here’s the thing. If you want to separate it from the thematic heart of the originals, than do your own thing. Create your own story with your own characters, perhaps set in the same universe. Don’t take Lucas’ story and Lucas’ characters and alter that to suit your own agenda. It’s not just that TLJ creates its own reality, it tries to alter our perspective on the earlier films, and tells us to view them through the prism of Rian’s vision. Even worse it attempts to do this by taking the same challenges, and then provide a different solution, in the process invalidating the earlier solution. It doesn’t even say, different problems require different solutions. It takes the same problem of Empire versus rebels, and a Jedi pupil turned to the dark side, and tells us the solution to that problem is not what the OT presented us, it needs to be something else. In doing so it betrays the spirit of the originals in my view.
The more I think about it, the more I appreciate what RJ did with this.
By amplifying the idea of the Jedi as a fatally flawed dogma, it turns the triumphant finale of the Original Trilogy into a threat. With The Return of the Jedi, the galaxy is forced to endure yet another war caused by this religion.
And so The Return of the Jedi becomes the giant looming question, the impossible task, the paradox that the final trilogy must solve.
Again I completely disagree. The Sith cut down the tree of the Jedi. That tree may have had some rotten branches, but at it’s core it was sound and healthy. Luke was a seed from that tree. That seed was planted, and was meant to grow into a beautiful new tree. Not the same tree, but it’s based on the same genes, the same basic values. That’s what the ST should have been about, evolution, the connection between the past and the future, not the past must die.
Well the Jedi aren’t exactly without flaws in the OT. You get Obi-wan lying , and Yoda keeping his mouth shut, to Luke about his father because they needed him to defeat the empire. And , when Luke was rushing off to save his friends and ultimately confront vader, Obi-Wan told him that he wouldn’t interfere. The same person that was supposed to be more powerful than we could possibly imagine after being struck down. And then, When Luke was calling out to him to help, completely ignored him. And finally told him that if he didn’t go and face Vader again and kill him that the emperor had won. refused to even listen when Luke said there was still good in him. He just wanted Vader dead.
How are any of these flaws? Obi-wan didn’t lie so much as he obscured the truth to protect Luke. He and Yoda knew that Luke wasn’t ready for that information, it would have destroyed him and turned him to the dark side. Nothing the Jedi did in the original movies was “bad” or “misguided” or “evil”.
They didn’t do it to protect him. They used him. Don’t you think that suddenly finding out , from the guy you were trying to kill, that he is your father and that the people who you thought were trying to help you were lying to you for their own gain, wouldn’t cause this kid some serious pain? That could screw someone up.
When Luke was leaving Dagobah:
YODA: Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.
Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope
Yoda: NO, there is another,Oh great. So basically let’s not try to help this kid and intervene. It doesn’t really matter to us if he gets killed. If he survives then great, but if not, we have a back-up. Doesn’t matter whether or not yoda tried to get out of it by saying he wasn’t ready for the burden. If they didn’t think for one second that Vader would use the fact that he was Luke’s Father as an advantage and tell him, then they were idiots. So, yes, they were flawed.
They were flawed. The practical implementations of democracy are flawed. Should we abandon it altogether, because it’s flawed? I don’t think so, because it’s the values democracy represents that are worth fighting for. The same goes for the Jedi in my view.
Is this why so many people disliked TLJ, because it confirms what George was trying to say throughout the prequels?
Sorry to have to tell you this, but that stuff’s technically canon.
I absolutely disagree, that that’s the message Lucas was sending with the saga. It’s one thing to question dogma, it’s another to reject basic values on which that dogma is based. The Jedi needed to evolve, and Luke by redeeming his father did that. He grew beyond the dogma of his masters by embracing the basic Jedi values without having been conditioned from birth to follow dogma. That’s the real return of the Jedi. Those were the values upon which the Old Republic was based, and those were the values that guarded the peace of the galaxy for over a thousand generations, a thousand generations!!! The last three decades in the Star Wars galaxy, and even the Emperor’s reign, are like a drop in the ocean compared to that. To deny that reality, and throw it in the bin, that is vanity. We are, what they grow beyond, states Yoda in TLJ. Luke was that, but in order for Rey to catch up and take over the batton, Luke had to forfeit the race.
This argument also brings me back to Rey’s sudden Force powers. One of my critics argued I was being pedantic for not accepting Rey’s rapid progression. She’s just a fast learner. Anyone who argues that fails to understand, that it’s not about the powers, she displays. The ironic thing is, that TLJ argues the Force is not about those powers, but then fails to recognize the underlying themes that becoming a Jedi represent. The dark side is the quick and easy path. One of the big lessons of the OT is, that it’s not easy to walk the path of the righteous, and to resist temptation. To have these super human powers, is to have an enormous responsibility, and to be a Jedi is to have an almost super human moral code. Rome wasn’t built in one day, and to obtain this stage of enlightenment takes years of training and self-reflection. That’s what becoming a Jedi was all about, and RJ has thrown that all by the wayside. TLJ is saying you can be the best at something without having to do the work. That’s wish fulfillment. I think that’s a terrible lesson for kids watching these films.
I’ve been thinking a bit about why I think Luke’s character is wrong to me, and why RJ’s explanation is insufficient.
The way I view Luke in this film is:
Luke has done something against his values driven by fear, and his actions have made things worse. He feels ashamed about what he has done. His reaction to this is, that he gives up on all of his values, and everyone who shares most of those same values.
I have problem with the first part, because one of the main values of Jediism is to control your fears. To be a Jedi is to be level headed, to not be impulsive. This also goes back to what Mark Hamill has said: “A Jedi wouldn’t do that”. Luke is a Jedi, that was one of the outcomes of his arc in the OT, and TLJ now wants us to accept, that Luke acted against those values impulsively. Of course we’ve seen Jedi act against their values before, most famously Anakin. However, with Anakin it was a process that was developed over the process over three films, and I think it can actually be argued, that Anakin never really accepted many of the values of the Jedi in the first place. Then there’s Mace Windu, who at the end of ROTS wanted to execute a seemingly defeated Darth Sidious. Here again we’ve seen the buildup of the conflict, and the effect that has had on the Jedi. They’re starting to come apart. What’s happening in ROTS is not a vision of evil, it’s real evil. RJ spents next to no time building up Luke’s sudden impulsive act, an act we may understand from a human perspective, but not from a Jedi’s perspective, and that’s where this movie really drops the ball in my view.
I have an even bigger problem with the second part, namely that Luke’s mistake causes him to give up on all his values instantly. After spending an entire trilogy returning the Jedi values back to the galaxy, he gives up on them completely, and in this film is actively campaigning against them. The Jedi are somehow wrong for attempting to channel the Force in a way, that for a thousand generations has prevented evil from spreading throughout the galaxy. The Jedi made mistakes in the final days of the Galactic Republic, but surely that can’t be attributed to their core values. Those core values are likely reflected in those old books Luke found in the Jedi tree, the books that Yoda jokingly says, aren’t page turners. In my view there’s something really wrong with a film, that argues these books with these core values should go up in flames. It’s reasonable to argue, that they should evolve, but kill the past? I feel this movie and it’s creators really don’t understand the themes and values represented by George Lucas’ original six film saga. They’re desperately shifting around the building blocks of the previous films in hopes of creating something that seems fresh, but in doing so are sacrificing the heart of what makes Star Wars…Star Wars.
This guy attempts to analyze what the difference is between George Lucas’ vision for Star Wars and the new movies. I think he actually makes some interesting points:
And now a message from Tv’s Frink.
I apologize for my overreaction and the distraction/annoyance it caused everyone, including Dre, the moderators, Jay, and everyone else just trying to read and post in a thread about a Star Wars movie.
I was also going to ask Dre to reconsider his announcement that he’s leaving the forum, as he’s a valued member of the community, but I see he’s already posting again. I’m glad to see it.
Very happy to hear from Frink, even if he’s a Force ghost for a little while. 😉 These things allways seem so silly when you look back at it. I never meant to offend anyone, but that doesn’t mean what you write can’t be offensive. I guess if someone get’s angry about it, that’s a pretty good indication to reconsider your words. I initially stupidly did the opposite. Anyway, happy things will soon be back to normal, and Frink will be back to liven things up.
Mark Hamill:
“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A
Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either.
Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.
I agree, but I can’t really blame that all on Rian Johnson. He inherited the problem of how to portray Luke from TFA. Han Solo says it all - That Luke “walked away”. So, I don’t know what they could’ve done different with Luke and still have it match with TFA?
I mean if Luke Skywalker “walks away,” never to return, then he has to be in a pretty dark place in the Last Jedi, right?I think it would’ve been better to just go ahead and make him the mentor in TFA.
TFA also said Luke went to look for the first Jedi Temple. Many speculated he went there to look for some answers, some sort of solution. So, this was not his only option.
Yes, I guess that’s possible. But still it’s hard to reconcile the fact that Luke leaves and does not deal with the Kylo situation, unless he’s just looking for answers and accidentally gets stranded or something like that.
I suppose so. On the other hand, the story was completely open. Luke could have looked for Kylo, and have tried to bring him back, and failed. He couldn’t kill his nephew, and so he felt to find the first Jedi Temple to look for answers. Obi-Wan and Yoda waited two decades for a solution to present itself.
The TFA script says:
“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness
in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t
need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His
look says it all.”
So, my interpretation was, that he was expecting Rey, which seems more in line with one of those old legends of the master waiting for the right student to appear.
If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.
And that’s hardly blasting the director.
He was hired to do a job, and so he did that job to the best of his abilities, and to his credit it’s an amazing performance. He doesn’t have to like it though, as he clearly doesn’t. It’s RJ’s vision for the character and he respects that, but he doesn’t feel that character is Luke Skywalker.
And lest we forget, Harrison Ford had issues with George over not killing Han off in ROTJ.
Sure, he felt his character had past his sell by date, and it would be better for the story if he died, but he never said that the character in ROTJ is not Han Solo. That it is all wrong. Harrison Ford didn’t care much about the Han Solo character anyway.
Mark Hamill:
“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A
Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either.
Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.
I agree, but I can’t really blame that all on Rian Johnson. He inherited the problem of how to portray Luke from TFA. Han Solo says it all - That Luke “walked away”. So, I don’t know what they could’ve done different with Luke and still have it match with TFA?
I mean if Luke Skywalker “walks away,” never to return, then he has to be in a pretty dark place in the Last Jedi, right?I think it would’ve been better to just go ahead and make him the mentor in TFA.
TFA also said Luke went to look for the first Jedi Temple. Many speculated he went there to look for some answers, some sort of solution. So, this was not his only option. It would seem Luke was pretty desperate, but I think few envisioned Luke just sitting on a rock, waiting to die.
If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.
And that’s hardly blasting the director.
He was hired to do a job, and so he did that job to the best of his abilities, and to his credit it’s an amazing performance. He doesn’t have to like it though, as he clearly doesn’t. It’s RJ’s vision for the character and he respects that, but he doesn’t feel that character is Luke Skywalker.