DrDre

joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

Not at all, the scene lines up very well with the rest of the film, and is perfectly consistent with the complaints that some of us have expressed about the film, and the depiction of Luke and the Jedi in particular.

joefavs said:

… but they cut it. For exactly that reason.

Yes, but it betrays RJ’s feelings and intentions going into this. So, he’s taken off some of the sharper edges, but he still turned the Jedi’s 1000 generation legacy of peace and justice, and the OT’s theme of hope and redemption into a legacy of failure for both the Jedi and Luke personally. It’s more revisionist than Lucas has ever done.

Deleted scene description from TLJ (source: /Film):

"The scene in question involved a prominent bit of Jedi training between Luke and Rey that occurred right after the two’s talk inside the cave where Luke mentions Darth Sidious. Rey notices a big fire on the beach and is told by Luke that it’s a group of invading bandits who regularly come to the island to steal from and kill the caretakers.

Rey’s hero skills immediately kick into action, although Luke warns her that helping the caretakers now will only result in the bandits coming back stronger at a later date. Luke tells Rey that a true Jedi acts only to maintain the balance, even if that means people get hurt. Rey ends up ignoring Luke’s advice, however, and she springs into action.

The scene cuts to Rey running towards the beach with her lightsaber. The Force propels her to run even faster. Luke yells for her to wait but she doesn’t stop. When she gets to the beach ready to defend the caretakers, she realizes the fire is not from a bandit attack but from a celebration the caretakers are having on the beach. Both Chewbacca and R2-D2 are taking part in the celebration, as are the native porgs.

Rey returns to Luke angry at him for lying, but he tells Rey that this was simply another task as part of her Jedi training. Her decision to spring into action is what the Resistance needs right now, Luke argues, not the old Jedi order he represents. He lied to prove to Rey that he Resistance needs her, not him. Rey breaks down, saying, “That old legend of Luke Skywalker that you hate so much, I believed in it.” Luke realizes he pushed her too far as Rey storms away.

The scene was cut from the movie because Luke ended up coming off as an even bigger curmudgeon, /Film says."

This entire sequence re-enforces the idea, that RJ went out of his way to to put both Luke and the Jedi in the worst light possible, an aspect of the film I truly despise.

Mavimao said:

^^ I was just about to say: this is space, she’s in zero G. She is not flying!

I don’t think I am going to stay on this thread for too long because I feel like it’s the same regurgitated opinions cycling through. I will say that I am a bit disappointed that people are not opening their minds to the idea that people can experience dramatic experiences that drastically alter their viewpoints on the world. Has no one ever been in a funk after a bad breakup or the death of a loved one? Ever seen a person suffer from PTSD? These are not foreign concepts, but people seem to live in a bubble where all the football stars from high school are playing in the NFL. Luke’s character makes absolute sense based on what he’s experienced and he even finds redemption when he allows himself to become entirely consumed and part of the very thing he had sworn off at the beginning of the film.

He may make absolute sense to you, but not to me. The change in Luke character is severely underdeveloped in my view. It’s given a single scene, which lasts 30 sec. We get next to no development of Luke’s relationship with Ben, his sister, and Han. We learn nothing about Luke’s character post-ROTJ, and the situation surrounding Ben’s turn. Like so many things in TLJ, story and character development is sacrificed for shock value, in order for Rey to have her confrontation with Luke. As it stands now Luke made a mistake, which seems out of character, and then went to hide under a rock, while the galaxy suffers for his mistake, which seems even more out of character.

I don’t think Hamill has actually changed his mind on “Jake Skywalker”. He’s continually maintained he disagrees with Ryan’s take on Luke, and to this day views him not to being entirely consistent with the Lucas era Star Wars. However, he’s also maintained it’s no longer about that era and those heroes, and that Luke had to be this way for Ryan’s story to work, and has praised the film. So, it appears he feels TLJ is a great film, and necessary for taking Star Wars in different directions AND still disagree with the way Luke was depicted in the film if he compares that version of the character with Lucas’ version. He simply didn’t want his criticisms of Luke in TLJ be taken out of context, or used as some indication that he hates the film.

As I stated before I think TLJ is enjoyable as a stand alone film. It has some good scenes, but in my view it’s not really forging it’s own path. For all the shocks and twists it is content to rehash the Empire versus rebels dynamic, as if stuck in a time loop. Meanwhile we get alternate reality versions of the battle of Hoth, the Dagobah training sequence, and the throne room sequence. In many ways it’s a mishmash of the OT with a new coat of paint. However for me the most difficult aspect of the film is how it seems to actively attempt to diminish the characters, and themes of the Lucas era Star Wars, in order to further it’s own far more cynical agenda.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

It’ll be interesting to see members’ views after Episode IX is released and we’ve all had time to take in the Sequel Trilogy as a whole.

As of right now, a lot of the differing and passionate opinions on here and throughout the various threads… may well change upon completion and reflection of seeing everything in the ST tied together - as a trilogy in itself, and as part of the whole saga overall.
 

Two down, one to go… 😃

That’s an interesting question indeed. Aside from the ST, I think it’s also interesting to consider how the ST will connect to the rest of the saga. It is meant to be part of a nine part saga afterall. I’m a bit skeptical, but TLJ does make it impossible for Abrams to create ROTJ 2.0, so it may turn out to be the greatest setup in the history of Star Wars.

Cough… six part saga… cough… (9 if you wish to count the Ewok films and Holiday Special) 😉

I fully agree with you re JJ and ROTJ 2.0 now - the setup is all there… bring it on 😃

I agree, the Holiday Special is still the high point in the saga for me. Why write witty dialogue, if you can put it into song?! 😃

oojason said:

It’ll be interesting to see members’ views after Episode IX is released and we’ve all had time to take in the Sequel Trilogy as a whole.

As of right now, a lot of the differing and passionate opinions on here and throughout the various threads… may well change upon completion and reflection of seeing everything in the ST tied together - as a trilogy in itself, and as part of the whole saga overall.
 

Two down, one to go… 😃

That’s an interesting question indeed. Aside from the ST, I think it’s also interesting to consider how the ST will connect to the rest of the saga. It is meant to be part of a nine part saga afterall. I’m a bit skeptical, but TLJ does make it impossible for Abrams to create ROTJ 2.0, so it may turn out to be the greatest setup in the history of Star Wars.

oojason said:

If people are complaining that TFA was too safe - and now complaining that it is too different - then that is no comment on the quality (good or bad etc) of the film itself. These is no inference in their statements that ‘different is automatically good’ at all.

I suppose to a degree, although criticizing a film for being too safe, does imply it would have been better, if it was less safe. Being safe is percieved as a weakness of the film, meaning it would be stronger without that weakness. Since, TLJ is percieved as not being safe, that would imply it does not have this weakness, even of it may have a host of other weaknesses. I think it goes a bit far to suggest, that a film being too similar or too different isn’t in some way meant to reflect of the quality of the film in question.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Sothis said:

DominicCobb said:

What’s funny to me is people complained that TFA played it too safe, now this did the opposite of that and people are still complaining.

this is too real.

Since when is different automatically good?

It wasn’t - and that’s not was alluded to by neither DominicCobb or Sothis.

Well the implication seems to be, people were complaining TFA is too safe, and now that things are apparently different, those same people are still not satisfied, as if those things have to be somehow related.

DominicCobb said:

nickyd47 said:

The objective reality is that Rogue One was redone and the directors of episode 9 and the Han Solo spinoff film were fired for making something Disney didn’t like

Disney did not make those decisions.

And the implication here, in regards to what this means for the story of TLJ, is pretty absurd, no? That Disney forced Rian to put in an anti-OOT subtext? This is getting to chemtrails levels.

You miss the point completely. It’s not an anti-OOT message. With TLJ Disney has made it clear, that it’s out with the old and in with the new. In that climate an OOT release seems less likely than ever before.

Sothis said:

DominicCobb said:

What’s funny to me is people complained that TFA played it too safe, now this did the opposite of that and people are still complaining.

this is too real.

Since when is different automatically good?

DominicCobb said:

and by extension massively compromised and lessened both Kylo’s threat and his depth of character due to all the possible branches of story between him and Snoke that much got killed off in the process.

I don’t see how that makes any sense. If you thought he was a bigger threat than the Emperor, and then Kylo killed him, how does that make Kylo less of a threat? It does the literal opposite of that.

This doesn’t make sense to me. A child can kill a professional soldier with a knife, if that soldier doesn’t pay attention. Does this make the child more of a threat than a professional soldier? Kylo doesn’t get to kill Snoke using his cunning or abilities. He’s able to do it, because Snoke acts like a fool, and starts ranting how he can’t beaten. The scene deflates Snoke. It doesn’t inflate Kylo. It’s obvious Kylo isn’t as powerful as Snoke, or Palpatine for that matter, and doesn’t seem to display the intelligence of a character like Palpatine either. So, I don’t see how Kylo became a bigger threat personally by killing Snoke, who only died, because he had his big head up his behind. If anything the FO has become less of threat, because it’s now run by someone less powerful, who’s mentally unstable and far less intelligent.

This is why this scene narratively doesn’t make much sense to me. It’s used for shock value, but ultimately weakens the bad guys at a stage when they should seem all the more terrifying (let’s not forget TLJ also turns Hux into a big joke). Such a scene would fit better in the third film of the trilogy, when the Kylo has regained Snoke’s trust, and completed his training, becoming more mature and powerful. Now Kylo takes over just after Rey handed him a humiliating defeat, deflating him in the eyes of the viewer.

Collipso said:

I think some of the criticism that’s been directed at TLJ should be directed at TFA instead. TFA set up its sequels with having to answer so many questions that should’ve been answered by TFA itself. It worked as a first part in a two parter, and it should’ve been a standalone film to set things up, like Star Wars and even The Phantom Menace were.
One example is Snoke and the First Order. Why not just tell us how he rose to power and how the First Order came to be in TFA? Why leave it to the other movies? But no, screw it. TFA shouldn’t have left a mystery box for the other movies to fill.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of an overarching set of themes for the ST. It’s obvious these films were created by two different artists with very different agendas. Additionally TLJ 's story is a mishmash of OT story threads and elements, driven by the desire to defy all expectations, rather than to tell it’s own story independent of expectations.

In some ways RJ wants to have his cake and eat it. Snoke has to be super bad, far more powerful than Palpatine, but he has to go out like a chump. He remains a pale copy of Palpatine, only to be replaced by his less capable luitenant. Somehow TLJ still feels like an alternate universe version of the OT, rather than it’s own thing. I personally wish they would have sticked with the theme TFA introduced for Kylo, and extended it to Snoke, to provide some proper motivation for Kylo to replace Snoke, and make Snoke more interesting, and not just another evil dark side user.

In TFA Kylo is revealed to be somewhat of a poser. What if Snoke had been the same, a sort of Wizard of Oz character, a small alien character with a limited knowledge of the Force, convincing everyone around him he’s this all powerful Force user through smokes and mirrors, really using Kylo for his power? Let’s face it, the Sith have been destroyed, so pulling this super powerful evil dark Lord out of thin air, feels like a cheat. This would provide Kylo the motivation to turn on him, and replace him, and would really set the FO and it’s origins apart from the Empire. A group of posers, who’ve slowly turned into this real threat, ultimately led by the grandson of Darth Vader. Just a thought to really separate the FO from the Empire using a common theme for Kylo and Snoke.

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

****************.

Um… spoilers?

Apologies, I’ve redacted the sentence.

Would you be so kind to redact the sentence in your response?

Edit: Thanks!

DuracellEnergizer said:

DrDre said:

As a fan you either adapt or die.

Or go insane.

The middle way sure can suck sometimes.

Yeah, it’s terribly frustrating.

Matt.F said:
So there you have it… proof that butthurt Star Wars nerds have been around long before this current generation of whiners and nitpickers nursing their rings following The Last Jedi!

O man, you really don’t get it, do you?

This forum is not the place to attack other users with a different opinion than you!

Please read this:

http://originaltrilogy.com/announcement/Updated-OTcom-Forum-Rules-and-Guidelines-Applies-to-all-forums-including-Off-Topic/id/52717

Pay particular attention to rule number 2.

In a way The Last Jedi is Disney’s veiled message, that we will probably never see the OOT released on (4K) bluray or any other form. TLJ’s message is clear. Out with the old, and in with the new. As a fan you either adapt or die. The OOT is the posterboy for the first generation of Star Wars fans. It represents the old, perhaps even the ancient, and not the new. Disney will put all their marketing power in selling this next generation Star Wars. The OOT has no place in this.

“In biology, there’s a word for an organism that uses an existing life form to provide itself with structure and shelter while it competes with said host for resources in order to grow, develop, and eventually multiply; that word is: parasite. I can think of no better description for what Star Wars: The Last Jedi is to Star Wars overall. I know, that sounds harsh, but remember that a parasite is merely doing what its genes direct it to do in order to survive, what it’s “designed” to do; it’s only a “parasite” in a negative sense where the host is concerned. That host is Lucas’ version of Star Wars and, by extension, the fandom who embraced it.”

“Disney, Johnson, Abrams, and the Lucasfilm braintrust are taking Star Wars to some interesting places in the future, places designed for the next, progressive generation of fans. We can come along if we leave the baggage of the last 40 years behind us and look forward to new interpretations, adventures, and discussions in the years to come, or we can cling to old ideals and lament of what could have been like some sort of cultural refugees.”

“Some day, perhaps 40 years in the future, this current cycle of Star Wars films will be subverted, reinterpreted, torn apart and put back together again, as is the nature of all things. We don’t have to like it now, and we won’t have to like it then. We can choose to be flexible enough to adapt along with it, or remain rigid in our rejection of it. The good news is that, ultimately, that choice doesn’t belong to anyone else but you, and that’s something that no amount of money in the world can take away.”

http://collider.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-problems-fandom-menace/#rey-kylo-ren-poe-finn-rose

NeverarGreat said:

There’s something special about Rey. Since it’s highly unlikely that it’s a case of famous parents, the other obvious explanation is that the Force was awakened in her for some purpose, and I think it’s logical to conclude that it’s for the purpose of finding Luke due to her proximity to the Falcon and so forth.

Yes, but how about the kid at the end of the film. He uses a force pull. Like Rey he just get’s it, totally going against the idea, that you have to study hard to control the Force. Did it awaken in him too?

I don’t think that just anyone can be a Jedi, you have to have a special talent for it. But to some extent, everyone in this universe can be attuned to the Force. The Force controls a person’s actions, but very few manage to get the Force to obey their commands.

That goes directly against George Lucas’ statements on the subject:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

Anyone can do it. Some may have more talent, like Luke and his father, but it’s not limited to a very few. The only reason it’s limited in the OT, is because you have to study many years to learn how to control it. Nobody believes in this stuff it anymore, and there are no more Jedi around to teach people these things. In the PT the Jedi only appear teach the most talented from a very young age, limiting their number, but this still doesn’t preclude the average Joe from learning how to use the Force.

NeverarGreat said:

Maybe when Luke closed himself off from the Force, it was ‘awakened’ in the person most likely to find him and bring him back. This person is Rey, who in addition to being familiar with the ship belonging to Luke’s oldest friend, is also close to a Church of the Force, the members of which are busy trying to find the First Jedi Temple.

That may just be the Force for you, but it sure would be nice if there was more of a hint in the original movie.

A hint of what? That anyone can be a Jedi? There’s nothing to in ANH to suggest it’s only limited to an elite few. It’s a religion long since forgotten of which Luke’s father was a member. Nobody believes in it anymore. It’s an energy field created by all living things. All living things interact with it.

I’ve been wondering about RJ’s vision for the Force. Some have argued, that anyone can be a Jedi now, that’s great! Looking at it more closely, I don’t think that’s really the case.

When Lucas created the original Star Wars, most people got the impression, that anyone can be a Jedi. You just have to study it, work hard, and there you go. Lucas himself held this view, as is evident from his 1977 definitions, that I posted earlier.

Then over the course of the OT genetics seemed to be introduced. Luke became part of a family line of powerful Jedi. The Force is strong in his family. This still doesn’t preclude anyone from becoming a Jedi. It just means some of us are more talented than others, just like in real life. Other explanations can be introduced for the Skywalker’s innate Force potential, but this one’s pretty logical, I think.

Then the PT came along, which showed the Jedi to be elitist. The PT never said, that the Force wasn’t available to everyone, it just said the Jedi only wanted the top of the class, so to speak. Many people understandably didn’t like this. I mean what about character? Wouldn’t you rather have a less talented Jedi with a good character, than a talented a*****e? Anyway, the Jedi were flawed. Doesn’t mean they were allways like this, just that they had evolved into this political elitist organisation.

So, what did RJ do? Did he go back to the 1977 concept of anyone who works hard at it, can be a Jedi? No, he didn’t. Rey just magically has these powers, and apparently so does the kid at the end of the film. No work required. It just awakes inside you. So, what if the Force doesn’t awake in Poe, or Finn, or some other random person?
Tough luck, I guess? Or can we expect the Force to be delivered to them as well? It got lost in the mail, or something. I think not. In short, he’s turned the Force into a lottery. Anyone can be a Jedi, if you’re one of the lucky few. I fail to see how that improves on Lucas’ original ideas, even the version of the PT, where despite the Jedi’s elitist views, anyone could theoretically become a Jedi.

adywan said:

DrDre said:

adywan said:

DrDre said:

Here’s “the guy” again with his spoiler review of TLJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdobc7jtQo

He asks a good question, that I actually had not considered (and neither did RJ apparently): if admiral Holdo can lightspeed through Snoke’s ship to allow the rebels to escape, and we know they’re going pick them off one by one once the chase begins at the start of the film, why didn’t any of the rebels (or better yet a droid) sacrifice themselves at the beginning of the plot by having one of the cruisers lightspeed through Snokes ship, such that everyone can escape?

The only reason Holdo was able to carry out her plan is because the first order had ignored the cruiser as they were fully concentrated on destroying the shuttles. She was able to turn the ship around which, if they had done that earlier, they would be in full range of the first order weapons and would have been blasted out of the sky before they could do anything. And, to the question “why didn’t a droid do it”, well its clear in the film that her original plan was to just keep the chase going while the shuttles escape unnoticed. But, as soon as the first order started destroying the shuttles , she had to think fast and come up with something. Would a droid come up with a plan like that? Not unless it was a tactical military droid. And you have to remember that this is a film. Having a droid sacrifice itself wouldn’t have had the emotional weight of a human sacrificing themselves/

That doesn’t really sound very logical. One of the ships would only have to hyperspace a small distance, namely further out of range of the FO ship, turn around and voila, bye bye Snoke and his ship.

They’d only got one jump left. They were all running out of fuel. Just look how quick the other two ran out. No way they could have done that

They had one jump to get far away. I’m sure a very short distance would have been possible. It’s not like they arrive instantly on their location, with the amount of fuel consumed not depending on the distance travelled. I’m sure it would have cost more fuel, then just flying there waiting to be killed, but they had some six hours worth of fuel, as is stated in the film.

Barring that they could have created a diversion, such that one of the ships could turn around and lightspeed through the ship. Have Poe make one of his crank calls again. That seemed to keep them preocuppied for a while, long enough for those extremely slow bombers to get close. Better yet, sacrifice another one of the smaller ships, by having it attack Snoke’s ship, turn around another one, and voila, almost everyone get’s to fight another day.

adywan said:

DrDre said:

Here’s “the guy” again with his spoiler review of TLJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdobc7jtQo

He asks a good question, that I actually had not considered (and neither did RJ apparently): if admiral Holdo can lightspeed through Snoke’s ship to allow the rebels to escape, and we know they’re going pick them off one by one once the chase begins at the start of the film, why didn’t any of the rebels (or better yet a droid) sacrifice themselves at the beginning of the plot by having one of the cruisers lightspeed through Snokes ship, such that everyone can escape?

The only reason Holdo was able to carry out her plan is because the first order had ignored the cruiser as they were fully concentrated on destroying the shuttles. She was able to turn the ship around which, if they had done that earlier, they would be in full range of the first order weapons and would have been blasted out of the sky before they could do anything. And, to the question “why didn’t a droid do it”, well its clear in the film that her original plan was to just keep the chase going while the shuttles escape unnoticed. But, as soon as the first order started destroying the shuttles , she had to think fast and come up with something. Would a droid come up with a plan like that? Not unless it was a tactical military droid. And you have to remember that this is a film. Having a droid sacrifice itself wouldn’t have had the emotional weight of a human sacrificing themselves/

That doesn’t really sound very logical. One of the ships would only have to hyperspace a small distance, namely further out of range of the FO ship, turn around and voila, bye bye Snoke and his ship.