DrDre

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique. Having Luke tell us about growing darkness as we see Ben sleeping in his bed is not the way to go in my view. We should have witnessed Ben Solo’s growing darkness, as he threatens Luke’s students, such that we can see for ourselves the threat that Luke percieves. That’s the way it was effectively done in ROTJ, amd that’s the way it should have been done in TLJ.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

So what you are saying is that because Palpatine threatened and goaded him that is a better reason to act rashly than seeing the depth of the darkness in Kylo Ren - a darkness that evidently bigger than what Luke felt in Vader. And in front of Palpatine and Vader he grabbed, ignighted, and swung his saber and the vision of darkness in Kylo only caused him to draw and ignite his lightsaber and not swing. I think you just proved a big difference in the two scenes.

No, Luke was trained by Yoda. He knows the future is not set in stone, and that he saw only one possible future. Allways in motion is the future, is what Luke learned, and the audience with him.

Palpatine didn’t just threaten Luke, he was actively annihilating his friends and allies. He’d just demonstrated the power of the fully operational Death Star, and destroyed a number of Alliance ships. Their situation appeared hopeless. This is in no way comparable to a Force vision of a possible future, a future Luke might help prevent.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

The movie should have let us know then. It’s not enough to keep us guessing. If the film wants the the vast majority of viewers to accept Luke’s u-turn, it needs to make us understand what causes Luke to loose his composure like that.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Except that even though Luke refused to fight his father, he still did, and almost killed him. And that Luke immediately regretted igniting his lightsaber, and would have likely tried to save Ben instead had he had the chance.

Luke fought his father, because he was manipulated by Palpatine, after seeing his friends getting slaughtered by Imperial forces. ROTJ provided ample motivation for Luke to feel desperate. TLJ provided no such motivation. If we had seen Kylo hurt one of Luke’s students, I could have understood Luke being emotionally compromised as he entered Kylo’s bedroom. We are now supposed to believe a vision was enough to terrify Luke into raising his lightsaber, when he was able for a long time to resist Palpatine’s goading him in the face of real danger.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way, or to prevent any number of dark side users from rising under Snoke’s tutelage. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, if he still feels the Jedi should end with him. The alternative is, that he might be killed in his attempt to stop Snoke, Kylo, and the FO, resulting in the end of the Jedi, the same result if he does nothing. Doing nothing obviously is the worst choice, as it guarentees the worst outcome. Luke is just stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force. This is the same character, who could not be broken, even when everything he believed in turned out to be based on a lie. The same character who opted to sacrifice himself by letting himself fall into oblivion, rather than join his father. The same character who redeemed his father, even when his mentors told him, it could not be done.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

This right here. I don’t see how people even compare the 2 situations. Obi-Wan and Yoda literally did all they could. Luke did nothing.

That’s so right. But I wonder why DrDre was disagreeing with Warbler. I was making the same point and he was agreeing with me (I thought?).

Sorry, I probably just misread the reply. I agree with you both.

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

TV’s Frink said:

I’m confused when you say the ST has a lack of cohesion with the other six films and then say ST feels like a franchise extension with recycling of many elements.

In my view the ST should feel like a natural progression of the six film saga, whilst respecting it’s underlying themes.

The ST thusfar feels like a big reset of the OT Empire versus rebels set up. TLJ is still almost completely driven by OT story points, as TFA was. In my view it tries too hard to distuingish itself through story twists, specifically tailored to elicit a “look they’re doing it different from the OT, because the OT did A in this situation, and they’re doing B” response, rather than just telling it’s own story.

The reality is, that ROTJ was the natural ending of the saga, and ultimately was set up as such. IMO it would have been better if they would have just told their own story from the get go, as RJ hopefully will do in the near future. Of course the fans wanted to see more adventures of our classic heroes, and financially it made perfect sense, but story wise the ST, whilst entertaining, weakens the saga and it’s underlying themes in my view by not being driven by an overarching story and common themes, but by the demands of franchise extension.

DominicCobb said:

I guess call me crazy but I just legitimately don’t understand the “lack of cohesion” complaints. The two films are different, sure, but not anymore so than a second part should be. I feel like the ST is well on it’s way to being a very cohesive set of films telling one story across three films.

I think, for example, the difference between TFA and TLJ is far less drastic than, say, the difference between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. And I think it’s about on par with the differences between the original Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back (this is something that can be really hard to wrap your head around if you only ever knew them together - I can attest to this from experience).

I personally feel the bigger issue with the ST is it’s lack of cohesion with the other six films in the saga. I think the ST even with TLJ struggles to find its own voice. As much as I can enjoy the three Disney films, even if I’m more critical of TLJ than TFA and RO, I struggle to see the added value of episodes VII and VIII in the overarching narrative. I think RJ’s trilogy may be more interesting going forward, as it apparently will be unrelated to the “main saga”, but thusfar the ST feel more like franchise extension than anything else, recyling many elements of the previous films (with some twists) and the aesthetics. Returning to Empire versus rebels still feels like a huge cop out, as if Star Wars is destined to repeat itself ad nauseam.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Were Yoda and Obi-Wan not ‘broken’ by events earlier in their lives? It would seem Luke is too in TLJ, and understandable given the circumstances - not forgetting his path to a change of heart towards the end of the film - sacrificing himself to do so.

For me, I like it more after I left the cinema. The more I think about it - and I am, weeks after it’s release - the more I’m understanding it and appreciating it.

(That’s not to omit the parts I personally thought didn’t quite work - yet I never went in expecting a perfect film - I’ve never seen one yet. Well, there was that one short film on pornhub…)

I don’t think the Luke and Obi-Wan/Yoda scenario really are comparable. For one Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t do anything bad to Anakin, like considering to kill him before Anakin went all psycho. Secondly, Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t just hide under a rock on their own accord, waiting to die. They were forced into hiding by a Jedi purge in a galaxy controlled by the Empire. They also actively tried to improve the situation by going after Sidious and his new apprentice. When that failed, they hid the twins, and bided their time, until the twins grew into adulthood and the Rebel Alliance had a fighting chance.

And despite the above, they remain characters still ‘broken’ by the events earlier in their lives - in the context of a reply to ‘while there is a place for gritty and broken heroes in cinema (John Wick, John McClane, etc.), doing it to existing heroes is a step too far for me’.

I wouldn’t say Obi-Wan and Yoda were broken in the same sense as Luke to be honest. Both characters still firmly stood for previously held values.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

nhoj3 said:

[dahmage said:

I really agree with your dislike of the dark and gritty DCEU, but i am perplexed that you would lump this with those (hyperbole aside). Luke is shown as ‘not perfect’ and struggling with how to exist as a perfect legend, and a flawed human. And i feel like he resolves this by the end of the film, so I didn’t come away feeling that he was flawed when i left the theater.

JJ / TFA set RJ up with a difficult question to answer: Why would Luke go missing for all of this time? RJ came up with the best answer he felt that he could… that Luke felt compelled to take himself (and the Jedi) out of the equation, leaving the Knights of Ren to run amok.

That just doesn’t ring true to the character for me.

But… but it’s what Ben Kenobi and Yoda did.

Ben Kenobi and Yoda did not themselves attempt to defeat Vader and Palpatine after the events of Episode III, even though Yoda himself says “only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally could conquer Vader and his Emperor.” They left Luke and the Rebel Alliance to do it for them.

Exactly right.

I continue to be amazed how many people are holding the ST to a different standard than the OT.

It’s also frustrating that people say Luke being anything less than perfect (i.e. one moment of weakness that quickly passes) is “out of character.” Did he not have a moment of weakness in ROTJ as well?

Not exactly right.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were forced into hiding by the ruling government, whereas Luke chose to go into hiding and die, while the Republic still controlled most of the galaxy. Obi-Wan and Yoda attempted to stop Sidious and Vader, and failed, whereas Luke did nothing. The moment the Rebel Alliance had a fighting chance, after their first victory stealing the Death Star plans, Bail Organa asked Obi-Wan’s help, and Obi-Wan didn’t hesitate to do so, unlike Luke. Luke refused to help even in the Resistance’s most desparate hour.

oojason said:

Were Yoda and Obi-Wan not ‘broken’ by events earlier in their lives? It would seem Luke is too in TLJ, and understandable given the circumstances - not forgetting his path to a change of heart towards the end of the film - sacrificing himself to do so.

For me, I like it more after I left the cinema. The more I think about it - and I am, weeks after it’s release - the more I’m understanding it and appreciating it.

(That’s not to omit the parts I personally thought didn’t quite work - yet I never went in expecting a perfect film - I’ve never seen one yet. Well, there was that one short film on pornhub…)

I don’t think the Luke and Obi-Wan/Yoda scenario really are comparable. For one Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t do anything bad to Anakin, like considering to kill him before Anakin went all psycho. Secondly, Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t just hide under a rock on their own accord, waiting to die. They were forced into hiding by a Jedi purge in a galaxy controlled by the Empire. They also actively tried to improve the situation by going after Sidious and his new apprentice. When that failed, they hid the twins, and bided their time, until the twins grew into adulthood and the Rebel Alliance had a fighting chance.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Good point, hadn’t looked at it that way. Perhaps you’re right, and I’m like Luke unable to look past a pile of old films. Maybe you’re my Yoda. You wouldn’t happen to have a screwy sense of humour, would you (and some pointy ears)? 😉

Pointy ears, no. Screwy sense of humor? Definitely.

I would honestly recommend seeing the film again if you get the chance, this time completely devoid of any preconceived notions.

Yeah, I’m going to see it again in a few days with my fiancee. She really liked TFA, despite not being a sci-fi/fantasy lover, so I’m curious how she will feel about TLJ.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Good point, hadn’t looked at it that way. Perhaps you’re right, and I’m like Luke unable to look past a pile of old films. Maybe you’re my Yoda. You wouldn’t happen to have a screwy sense of humour, would you (and some pointy ears)? 😉

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Does it not diminish the OT, if the ST continues to recycle some of the OT’s best moments

Only if you allow it to, my friend, only if you allow it to. 😉

I suppose you’re right. As the famous Inspector Clouseau said to his former boss Dreyfus:

“Out with the bad, in with the good!”

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

TV’s Frink said:

Not directed at you necessarily, as some of the posts here have been much more along those lines than yours.

I know it’s sort of frustrating to have us buzzkills in here all the time raining on the parade. 😉

I mellowed somewhat with respect to the PT, and there are enough good scenes in TLJ, that I will be able to enjoy it on it’s own terms. I’m just left wondering, did we really need another Empire versus rebels reprise? Does it not diminish the OT, if the ST continues to recycle some of the OT’s best moments, even if we get a few new twists for good measure? Is the ST journey really worth the effort if we end up in the same place at the end of it, only now with Rey in stead of Luke?

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels were terrible but I don’t lose any sleep over it.

To repeat: I fully understand the disappointment that some of you feel, even if I think you’re seeing completely different things in the movie that I do. But the anger I see just makes no sense.

I wouldn’t call it anger, just disappointment and frustration leading to some harsh criticism.

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Yes, but my frustration is that the ST is not forging it’s own path. It’s leaving us in a similar place as TESB, with more Empire versus tebels, another new hope, and sacrifices the classic characters and their socalled legendary status to get there. Luke has to go to rock bottom, only to be brought back to a state similar to his state at the end of ROTJ, only now having had a hand in the galaxy’s suffering, such that a far less developed and almost too perfect and somewhat ahallow new hope can take his place.

TV’s Frink said:

Why would you care how other people view classic characters going forward?

As someone who disliked the movie said previously, new Star Wars just isn’t for them anymore. I get the disappointment, I don’t get the anger.

I’ve seen many similar expressions of dismay in these boards towards Lucas and his prequels, and these criticisms continue to be expressed to this day, more than a decade after they’ve been released. It’s only been a week since TLJ’s release. I don’t get why it’s so strange, that some of us are expressing frustration at the direction taken by the powers that be, especially considering that we were very much looking forward to TLJ and the continuation of the saga.

Mavimao said:

DrDre said:

joefavs said:

… but they cut it. For exactly that reason.

Yes, but it betrays RJ’s feelings and intentions going into this. So, he’s taken off some of the sharper edges, but he still turned the Jedi’s 1000 generation legacy of peace and justice, and the OT’s theme of hope and redemption into a legacy of failure for both the Jedi and Luke personally. It’s more revisionist than Lucas has ever done.

Van een vlieg een olifant maken.

It’s just a movie, doc. Deep breaths.

I hated Alien Resurrection but that didn’t diminish my enjoyment of the other films.

It’s more than just a single movie, as it affects the franchise, and how these classic characters are going to be viewed going forward.

For me personally it has managed to suck the enjoyment out of watching future Star Wars installments, specifically episode IX more effectively than the prequels ever did, and that’s a bitter pill to swallow.

I’m perfectly fine with RJ creating his own story, I’m just very unhappy that he did it over the back of the previously established movies. Rather than build on the foundation laid by the OT and PT, he burned it down to reveal his own construction using Lucas’ building blocks.