DrDre

Matt.F said:

Dre, I should be really clear I am not calling you a misogynist. But I am calling you ‘naive’ for thinking that it doesn’t exist in geek culture, and that the character of Rey specifically has brought it out of the woodwork.

I never denied, it exists in geek culture. I’ve read most of the articles, and I’m against such practices. I just don’t understand why you would bring it into a discussion about Rey’s character, which thusfar was completely dominated by her character traits, and the way her character progressed in the films, not about the fact that she’s a girl?

Matt.F said:

Daisy Ridley herself has come out and stated that she believes the ‘Mary Sue’ tag is sexist and inappropriate.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/

It’s become a meme, and I can see her point, but I can also see the term being used to silence critics.

“So, you didn’t like Rey’s character development? Are you implying Rey is a Mary Sue? You must hate women in lead roles, you misogynist pig!”

Matt.F said:

I haven’t accused anyone on this forum, I have made the point that Mary Sue Rey has been taken up elsewhere in a misogynistic fashion. Do you disagree?

No, I do not disagree. I also do not think it should be some sort of banned term, if the critics using it explain why they think the term is appropriate.

I do have to ask myself why you would drag the whole misogynistic angle into the discussion, if you didn’t suspect it played a role in the discussion?

Matt.F said:

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before, and both Anakin TPM and Luke ANH provide consistent parallel examples with Rey… all characters beginning ‘The Hero’s Journey’.

The moderators on this forum are super-engaged and I suspect that misogyny would be quickly suppressed, but I am sure many of the guys on here also read other forums, reddit, facebook and have seen with their own eyes that the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint has been the rallying call for a rather ugly streak of misogyny to come out of the woodwork. Kathleen Kennedy has also been on the receiving end.

For Dre to dismiss it as “anti-feminist nonsense” is really naïve. You don’t have to be a ‘Social Justice Warrior’ to see that it’s a good thing to have female heroes and role models. You just have to be a human being.

No, you suggesting I might be criticizing Rey for being a woman is anti-feminist nonsense. I allready stated I’m perfectly fine with a female protagonists or any number of female protagonists. My criticism is against Rey as a character, not as a female character. It’s pretty telling, that you would suggest the people you disagree with have an anti-feminist agenda, or to be less than a human being. That’s a pretty low blow in my book, my friend. There are probably a number of anti-feminists among Rey’s critics, but let’s not paint every critic with that same brush in a weak attempt to win an arguement.

Matt.F said:

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Anakin was too perfect in TPM. I’ll agree with you on that, but he went through intensive training over the course of a decade between TPM and AOTC, and he got his share of challenges, and losses. He lost his mother, who was tortured to death, a fight against a Sith Lord, and his arm, and unlike Rey these things had enormous consequences for his development as a character.

Luke did recieve training aboard the Millenium Falcon, so I don’t see your point. You might argue it was not enough to make that shot, but it’s the difference between seeing Luke fail in using the Force and then succeed under the guidance of Obi-Wan. Luke was even guided by Obi-Wan when he made that shot. Rey had zero training or guidance by a Force user, none, and she still succeeded. That’s the difference.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

Yes, that all happened in TFA, a film that I liked very much, and made me look forward to TLJ.

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had no training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”.

Luke had maybe 3 to 4 days training on Dagobah, same as Rey has on Ach-To.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

Please stop with this anti-feminist nonsense.

Luke went through multiple scenes of training, and his progression as a character and knowledge of the Force was developed over years in in-universe time. Luke went through hell and back. He was challenged spiritually and physically. He learned the father he had worshipped all his life was an evil monster. He was completely humiliated by Vader, and lost his hand. He even attempted suicide to avoid capture, and needed to be rescued by his friends.

Rey has faced non of the challenges Luke has. She doesn’t struggle with the Force, and has won any challenge put before her. She faced both Kylo and Snoke, and walked out without so much as a scratch. She went from a nobody to super hero in a matter of in-universe days. There’s just no comparison. I don’t care that she’s a girl. Good for her. I liked her in TFA, even if she was a bit too good and perfect, and I expected her to go through some serious struggle in this one. Alas it was not to be, and she’s turned out to be the most shallow, and underdeveloped Star Wars protagonist in four decades, in my opinion of course.

Matt.F said:

I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side…

Please point those moments out to me, because I didn’t see any serious struggle or temptation, and there certainly were no serious consequences for Rey, as there were for Luke.

and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

The moments with Kylo were mostly undercut by Snoke’s admission, that he was manipulating Rey, as such we don’t know what was real, and what wasn’t. The single most powerful moment was, when Kylo couldn’t kill his mother, but as with Rey it was without consequence, as the theme wasn’t revisited in the film. Leia just accepted her son was lost without so much as a confrontation, killing an interesting story thread about Ben Solo’s relationship with his parents, a relationship that had led to particide. However, like so many set ups of TFA RJ decided to mostly ignore that.

Matt.F said:

Yes, and of course the theme that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment and resist the dark side is deeply explored in The Last Jedi, and is far more compelling than “you’re born with Midichlorians”.

It’s not explored, as the film’s hero Rey doesn’t struggle with the dark side at all. It’s mentioned in a single scene, related to the cave, and then brushed aside. She’s the perfect heroine making all the right decisions, mastering these powers like the flick of a switch. There’s no hard work. She enters the enemies stronghold after two incomplete lessons from Luke, and returns without so much as a scratch. Compare this to Luke hanging broken below Cloud City hoping to be rescued, and you’ll understand why Rey’s such a shallow character to me.

Conversly, Kylo Ren is just presented as a bad egg. No attempt is made for explaining his motivations for joining the dark side. Snoke had won his heart, and that’s the end of it. There’s no exploration of Ben’s relationship with his parents. There’s no temptation. We get some cosplay for the benefit of the viewer to make Kylo seem conflicted, and more sympathetic to Rey, but this turns out to be a ruse set up by Snoke, and ultimately inconsequential, because Rey remains the perfect hero she was at the start of the film, and Kylo remains an evil man-child.

George set the ‘rules’ that you adhere to and then he changed them, so I am certain that you must have absolutely loved The Last Jedi, as it elegantly sidesteps the mistake of Midichlorians and rather than a scientific, measurable Force we return to a purely spiritual one.

I actually didn’t like the Midichlorians, because I didn’t need a scientific explanation for a spiritual phenomenon. TLJ sidesteps the Midichlorians and just about anything else related to mastering the Force. Rey’s like a super hero now, the Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:
These are the rules of the Star Wars universe.

There are no rules - more like guidelines!

Each movie is its own individual thing. Each movie needs to tell its own fairy tale in isolation. The director and the writer need that freedom of expression.

We’ve had the Star Wars ‘man on a mission’ movie, and in days to come we may well have the Star Wars ‘western’, the Star Wars ‘gangster movie’, etc

The fans that don’t enjoy The Last Jedi seem to have a problem with grasping this. They don’t like the creative freedom, which is an essential part of movie making. They want ‘rules’, they don’t want guidelines. But that would be a stagnant environment for creativity, a walled garden where the same elements are recycled over and over.

Let’s look again with an open mind at the original three movies, and realise that despite the Special Edition’s attempt to ‘homogenise’ them and unify the logo design, the poster art, and the fx… that they are not the same. Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return Of The Jedi are three VERY different films, in every measurable way.

The Kubrickian Star Wars, the lush humanist romance of Empire Strikes Back, and the Roger Moore era Bond big set pieces and broad gags of Jedi.

So I would say to Star Wars fans… allow difference. Embrace it. Loosen up about rules. Do not fear change. Allow each new director their creative vision. And you might just find yourself enjoying the ride!

I’m fine with difference, but I dislike inconcistency especially if it undermines the main themes underlying the previous films. If one movie says Superman can fly, and then the next film says Superman can fly except on Tuesdays, even though we saw him flying on Tuesdays in the last one, that’s an inconsistency, and not the sort of creativity I’m looking for. Star Wars is big universe, that has existed for four decades, and for most of that time most of the material released have been guided by a set of rules created by it’s creator George Lucas. Sure, you can expand on it, or bent the rules a bit, but to just ignore them, and do your own thing? That’s not Star Wars to me. The themes that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment, to be able to master these powers, to resist the temptation of the dark side, are essential parts of Star Wars for me. Without those it becomes an empty spectacle, where the only things that define Star Wars are Empire versus rebels, a bunch of cool ships, and some super powered individuals wielding lightsabers. I’ll pass on that.

adywan said:

DrDre said:

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules.

George broke his own rules when he started the prequels. The rules changed from “anyone who studied hard could learn it” to " only a select few, which the Jedi identify at a young age, can use the force".

Lucas never stated only a select few can use the Force and neither did the PT. The PT showed the Jedi to be elitist, only selecting the most talented prospects for joining their club. This however does not preclude anyone from learning about the Force, and using it.

Double post

yotsuya said:

So, a couple of things about Rey. One, TLJ just continues the way her character started in TFA. If you watch both closely, you will find that everything she does she picks up from Kylo Ren. Everything she does, he does around her first. And as for her raw power, we got a very good answer for that from Snoke. When Kylo brought Rey before him he said that he’d told Kylo that as he grew stronger his opposite in the light would rise, but Snoke thought it would be Skywalker. So we have a third generation Skywalker who has turned to darkness and to balance that out, his equal in the light has appeared. That is the answer to why things seem to come so easy for her. But while the force seems to come easy for her, she needs a mentor to guide her. Han is dead. Luke refused. Her parents were drunks and are dead. Rey is completely different from Luke. Unlike him who was pretty whiny to start out with, she doesn’t complain much and her life on Jakku taught her the disciple that Yoda tried to teach Luke. But when you look at the duration of Luke’s training, he was with Ben for a few hours in hyperspace. Three years later he could pull a light saber to him and hit targets with incredible accuracy. After he trains with Yoda, we do not have proof that he can lift an X-wing yet, but he flies off with his training incomplete to helps his friends and gets his hand cut off. A year later, with no additional training, he frees Han, turns himself over to the Empire, faces Vader, taps into the raw power of the force (seemingly the dark side from how he was goaded into an emotional response by Vader) and defeats Vader - with no additional formal training than he had the last time they faced.

So, no, the Star Wars universe does not demand formal training to use the force. Anakin could pod-race at 9 using skills normally found in trained Jedi. It was raw talent. Luke always doubted and he had trouble learning. Rey had the discipline of a hard life and the guidance of Kylo Ren (remember that nice lesson he gave her during their lightsaber duel on Starkiller Base?). So TLJ is not doing anything different with Rey than Abrams did. Her journey remains the same. Huge raw power and no guidance and she is on a quest for guidance. And the explanation for her power was provided. And her parentage is not very different from Anakin’s. His mother was a slave and his father a mystery (or the force itself). Rey was sold by her parents for drinking money and they died in the Jakku desert. She is the force’s answer to Kylo Ren. The question is what is their purpose, she and Kylo. Their stories are entwined and both have a struggle, just not with the force.

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules. Anakin’s talent to be able to see things before they happen was presented in TPM as some sort of precursor to becoming a Jedi, an indication of great Force potential. Anakin still had to go to school to learn Jedi mind tricks, levetation, lightsaber skills, etc. As far as Luke goes. Luke spent three years between ANH and TESB honing his skills, and then again in the year between TESB and ROTJ. As Lucas states you can do it on your own, but it takes many years of studying. Training with Yoda sped up that process for Luke.

Learning the Force is like a walking a tightrope. It takes many years to master it, to be able to stay on the rope under changing conditions, and to instinctively react to those changing conditions. What you would have us believe is, that Rey saw Kylo walk a tightrope, and she was almost instantly able to do it herself, and walk it better than someone who studied it for years, someone like Luke in TESB. That’s just not believable, at least to me. IMO it’s a blatant disregard for how the Force works, and undermines the themes of the previous six movies, where becoming a Jedi demanded serious dedication, and where it was not easy to fight the temptation of the dark side, and stay on the path of the righteous. These powers were a representative of a higher state of being, and now they’ve just become super powers and Rey some sort of MCU super hero.

Interesting discussion. I would say Yoda is both right and wrong. Size matters not in theory, and a Jedi completely in tune with the Force, reaching a complete state of enlightenment, should be able to move planets, and crush Death Stars. However, no such Jedi exist, or have ever existed. A Jedi has to work all his life to get more in tune with the Force, and the training never ends. Yoda is much more in tune with the Force than most other Jedi, but even he has not reached that asymptotic state, because you basically have to be immortal to reach it.

@Frink

I’m absolutely fine with you or anyone else liking TLJ. I respect that, but what I don’t understand, is why it’s so difficult to return that courtesy. We raise what we feel are legitimate criticisms against TLJ. Why? Because we love Star Wars and it’s history (some parts more than other parts, but anyway), and care about how future writers and directors will handle previously established canon. So, rather than just admitting TLJ ignores some of what had been established before, and say you’re fine with it, or write a counter argument to show, that our interpretation is flawed, you state the fault is with us critics. We disagree with you, and so there’s something wrong with us. We’re so inflexible.

Anyway, I suspect it’s out of frustration with the seemingly never ending list of complaints against the film in this thread, so I sympathise to a degree. I was planning to stay out of the discussion for a while, but then there’s allways some argument, that pulls you back in. C’est la vie…no offense meant.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977

I don’t care if it’s not in the film.

and established it in his films.

How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?

Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.

Last thing I’m saying for a while…

We saw one person trying to learn in the OT, Luke. And I don’t give a shit about anything the PT says. And we never saw any trials, so by your own logic where we never saw it so it didn’t happen, the trials mean nothing anyway. Even if you include the PT, all we saw was a bunch of kids playing with lightsabers.

Yeah sure, it’s just Luke who needs training on Dagobah. He’s just a slow learner, I guess. When he said the Force is strong in his family, he was just talking out of his ***, since any random person can do what he did in a matter of days. There’s no PT, TCW, EU, and fourty years of Star Wars history. We should just ignore all that, because RJ really understands Star Wars. Jump on the bandwagon! It’s no biggie. You just have to reject all previously established canon, but that all sucked anyway. Kill the past, y’all! Well, that’s not my Star Wars, but I guess that’s no surprise to anyone…

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977

I don’t care if it’s not in the film.

and established it in his films.

How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?

Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade, have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.

You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.

Sure, maybe Jedi should be able to fly in the next installment, or use the Force to travel through time. Is it too much to ask for a director to respect the rules of a universe he did not create?

Gaffer Tape said:

Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.

The reality is, that Luke recieved some basic training in using the Force from Obi-Wan before making that one on a million shot. We also saw him struggling to control the Force in subsequent installments, and be easily outclassed by Darth Vader, even after he had been trained by Yoda.

Rey could do everything Luke could without any effort in a matter of days: Jedi mind trick, proficient use of a lightsaber, beat a Jedi master, move a ton of rocks. In all that time she got a single lesson in the use of the Force with Luke, that she didn’t get to complete, because Luke ran off. It’s just wish fulfillment, and completely contradictory to everything established in the Star Wars universe before the ST.

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977, and established it in his films.

If you’re going to play in someone else’s playground, you better learn to play by the rules.

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

Maybe it would work better if Rey wasn’t a badly written character.

That’s also part of my problem. Most of the OT heroes were turned into failures, as did many of their previous victories only to be replaced by what I percieve to be much more shallow and less developed new characters. The clock is turned back thirty years, the classic characters are made to appear inept, such that the new characters seem the only hope for the future, and history is set to repeat itself, another Empire to defeat, and another rebellion hoping to restore freedom. Another dark side user needing to be stopped, and another young Jedi hoping to restore the Jedi order.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

Exactly! We witnessed Luke the person in the OT, and not some legend. Our expectations are based in how Luke grew as a character in the OT, and how that character reacted to setbacks, challenges, and disappointment.

The legend line in TLJ feels like a wesk excuse for explaining the lack of development of the transition in his character. It treats the viewer like idiots, as if we didn’t understand the character, but RJ does.

But clearly some of us are on the same page as RJ and got what he was doing and found it fit with the character. Even Mark Hamill did after seeing the completed film.

I disagree. Most if not all of Hamill’s statements questioned Luke’s characterization even after the release of the film. I view his apology the same way I viewed Lucas’ white slaver apology. I’m sure he didn’t mean to state he dislikes TLJ, and didn’t want his statements to be interpreted as such, but I’m also sure he still views Luke in TLJ as “Jake Skywalker”, one that doesn’t quite fit with George Lucas Star Wars, or his personal interpretation of the character. Most importantly Hamill never took back his statements regarding Luke in any shape or form.

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

Exactly! We witnessed Luke the person in the OT, and not some legend. Our expectations are based in how Luke grew as a character in the OT, and how that character reacted to setbacks, challenges, and disappointment.

The “legend” line in TLJ feels like a weak excuse for explaining the lack of development of the transition in Luke’s character. It sort of paints the older generation of fans as idiots, as if we didn’t understand the character, but RJ does. As if we believed jn this idealized version, “the legend”, and he’s going to show us the real Like.

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Obi-Wan telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced Anakin, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison at all, as we never see Ben Solo before we see Kylo Ren.

It’s not a comparison with Ben Solo. It’s a comparison with Luke, who after three films of being the hero, has now become a completely different character, abandoning his friends, the galaxy, and his principles, with only a single 30 sec flashback explaining the transition. This is like good Anakin in the PT instantly becoming Darth Vader in the OT with only a 30 sec flashback halfway through ANH explaining the transition.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible, not just a Force vision, which a trained Jedi would know is not set in stone. Luke needs to be emotionally compromised to do what he did in Ben’s bedroom. If we had witnessed Ben hurting a fellow student, and Luke’s anxiety over this, the scene in Ben’s bedroom would have worked much better.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Vader telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced him, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, silly jokes in a casino, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.