DrDre

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

oojason said:

Right, yeah the screenplay - I didn’t see the edit for imsdb before posting.

Again, as you missed the part of my post where it says ‘you can even see it in the film, in case you need to go looking for more articles to prove what actually happened in the film… didn’t happen’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI (around 4m 15s in - though watch the whole fight if you wish to take into consideration the context in which my original posts mentioned)

^ Doesn’t seem that there’s any time for that before the planet breaks up (again, I may have already mentioned this before - and also linked to it before).

 

I really got to get to bed. G’night.

I have watched the fight many times, and each came to the same conclusion every other user here did. She won the fight.

Kylo who’s already seriously injured, and psychologically compromised, is quickly outmatched by Rey once she composes herself, and allows the Force to guide her actions. She disarms, injures him, and puts him on his back. He looks hurt, and totally bewildered, while she’s towering over him with her lightsaber. Then the ground splits between them.

This is how I read the scene since the first time I saw it. I also believe, this is the intented interpretation of the creators.

You obviously see it differently, even if you appear to be unique in this view.

Let’s agree to disagree.

G’afternoon, by the way…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

How about you go watch all of the fight again? And post in on here (don’t worry - I have below).

Just because - as I stated before - he is on his arse and scarred in the final few blows of the fight - doesn’t mean she won the fight.

The planet came apart before there was any ‘winner’.

Selecting certain scenes from an overall event to highlight an opinion does not make it fact. I find it baffling that you think it does.

Try watching the whole fight, here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI - and put it into context of my previous posts. Rey is on the back foot and losing the fight - on the edge of a ‘cliff’ before she let’s the force in… and even then the planet breaks apart before there any winner…

I don’t buy this. Did Luke not win the fight against Vader in ROTJ? Vader was wounded, disarmed, and on his arse like Kylo. Once Rey found her composure, and used the Force she got the better of Kylo pretty quickly. If the earthquake had not separated them, she could have sliced him in half. I would call that winning the fight.

Again, don’t take my previous comments out of context - or give conjecture to them (‘could’) - in that…

'You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…’

For all we know Kylo could have lost his cool - in doing so ignoring Snoke’s instructions to bring her to him and sliced her in half… see conjecture…
 

Again, circular arguments selectively cherrypicked to try - and fail - to prove your point does you - nor you view any favours.

Sorry this makes no sense to me. You’re willfully ignoring what happens in the film. Kylo isn’t even able to properly defend himself, which is why he lands in his arse wounded and beaten. Vader did not want to kill Luke. He wanted to turn Luke. Conjecture: Vader loses his cool, ignores his master’s wishes, and slices Luke in half. Ergo, Vader didn’t lose the fight. Doesn’t sound very convincing, does it?

Snoke in TLJ:

“You got beaten by a girl? A novice?!!”

I will repeat that phrase: BEATEN. Kylo Ren got beaten in TFA. That’s the official canon.

According to Snoke’s point of view - in a dismissive put-down to Ren. That it not canon. A girl who Snoke now realises is the light rising to fight the darkness - not Skywalker as he mistakenly assumed earlier (and mentioned earlier - which again you seemed to have conveniently ignored, again).

And I didn’t mention Vader and Luke at all.

Plus, once again the planet breaks up before there is a winner.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

Either it is a thing that exists or it doesn’t. If it exists what are the odds something like wouldn’t be mentioned at all?
It didn’t happen the PT, It didn’t happen between Luke and Vader. It is not mentioned at all in any previous film. That is the problem when you decide to invent something new, you have to account for its absence in the prior films. I don’t the evolve and change stuff. Either this is something the force does or it doesn’t.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Maybe I should have said “begs for a better explanation”.

It exists in this film - as stated above. You can go back and select whatever criteria you wish - it does not make it that it did not happen in this film. I don’t have to account for it not appearing for it’s absence in previous films at all - as that is not what the context of the situation is about.

Though if so, I could point out that the balance of the force - and it’s interpretation - is indeed mentioned in the PT, yes?

Nice one, thanks.

Yes, and that interpretation is, that balance to the Force is equated to destroying the Sith, as stated in ROTS by Obi-Wan, and since confirmed by Lucas in interviews after ROTS was released.

No, It is also mentioned by Mace Windu too, amongst others. Yes? Without equating the balance in destroying the Sith? Thank you for the reminder in proving my point.

George can say what he wants in interviews after the fact - he is hardly a paragon of consistency, or fact/truth is he?

Yes, the balance is mentioned without any explanation. The only explanation given in the films is the one given by Obi-Wan, hence it is the only correct interpretation. Anything else is fan fiction, or head canon. Luke’s parentage was only confirmed by Yoda in ROTJ. Should we thus ignore this fact, because it doesn’t fit a fan’s narrative? I’m sure Lucas has mentioned Vader being Luke’s father too in interviews, but…

George can say what he wants in interviews after the fact - he is hardly a paragon of consistency, or fact/truth is he?

Actually, it is mentioned in the context of the prophecy of ‘the one who will bring balance to the force’ - as previously stated, an interpretation - but actually mentioned - which was the point. This is a fact - not a fan’s narrative, yes?

Again, thanks.
 

I’ve had my fill of answering selective statements whilst going around in circles - again, as stated before. I’m sure you’ll have even more selective statements out of context repeatedly made for those who disagree with your opinions on TLJ. If not, there are always Rey is the Wonder Woman of Star Wars universe type quips.
 

As for StarWars.com articles - Rey didn’t have time to spare Kylo’s life… the erm… planet broke up before there was a winner (I think I may have mentioned it before 😉) - you can even see it in the film, in case you need to go looking for more articles to prove what actually happened in the film… didn’t happen. Or something.

G’night.

No I provided undeniable proof via the TFA screenplay. That’s what the creators intended. There’s nothing selective about that. You can keep denying the facts, if you want.

I reinterate:

Force Awakens screenplay:

CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN
SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.
And she could kill him – right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!
But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than
even the cliff – the edge of the dark side. The earth
SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html

That’s, what’s in the screenplay. That’s what’s in the film. That’s, what we’ve been arguing.

G’night.

TV’s Frink said:

I maintain my position that website biographies, novelizations, screenplays, etc. are inadmissible and all that matters is what was on the screen.

With that said, I don’t think there’s much question that Rey “won” that fight. Which I’m fine with given Kylo’s condition at the time.

I’m fine with it too. The screenplay does speak for the intentions of the creators, and proofs that it’s not just some random interpretation of a few fans trying to push their own narrative. Once we’ve established what the creator’s intended, we can discuss if that translated well to the screen.

Just a little extra information regarding the Kylo/Rey lightsaber fight in TFA.

Kylo Ren’s biography on starwars.com:

“Kylo faced his father inside the First Order’s Starkiller Base, and struck Han down with his lightsaber. But this shocking act of patricide didn’t make the former Ben Solo feel stronger – somehow he felt weaker. Rey then bested Kylo in a lightsaber duel, sparing his life. Kylo Ren had hoped to end the conflicts that caused him so such pain, but found he remained at war with himself, more lost than ever.”

http://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren

Rey bested Kylo, sparing his life.

Force Awakens screenplay:

CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN
SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.
And she could kill him – right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!
But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than
even the cliff – the edge of the dark side. The earth
SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html

There is no doubt. Rey defeated Kylo in TFA, and she spared his life. That’s what Abrams and Kasdan intended, and that’s what’s in the film.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

How about you go watch all of the fight again? And post in on here (don’t worry - I have below).

Just because - as I stated before - he is on his arse and scarred in the final few blows of the fight - doesn’t mean she won the fight.

The planet came apart before there was any ‘winner’.

Selecting certain scenes from an overall event to highlight an opinion does not make it fact. I find it baffling that you think it does.

Try watching the whole fight, here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI - and put it into context of my previous posts. Rey is on the back foot and losing the fight - on the edge of a ‘cliff’ before she let’s the force in… and even then the planet breaks apart before there any winner…

I don’t buy this. Did Luke not win the fight against Vader in ROTJ? Vader was wounded, disarmed, and on his arse like Kylo. Once Rey found her composure, and used the Force she got the better of Kylo pretty quickly. If the earthquake had not separated them, she could have sliced him in half. I would call that winning the fight.

Again, don’t take my previous comments out of context - or give conjecture to them (‘could’) - in that…

'You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…’

For all we know Kylo could have lost his cool - in doing so ignoring Snoke’s instructions to bring her to him and sliced her in half… see conjecture…
 

Again, circular arguments selectively cherrypicked to try - and fail - to prove your point does you - nor you view any favours.

Sorry this makes no sense to me. You’re willfully ignoring what happens in the film. Kylo isn’t even able to properly defend himself, which is why he lands in his arse wounded and beaten. Vader did not want to kill Luke. He wanted to turn Luke. Conjecture: Vader loses his cool, ignores his master’s wishes, and slices Luke in half. Ergo, Vader didn’t lose the fight. Doesn’t sound very convincing, does it?

Snoke in TLJ:

“You got beaten by the girl? A novice?!!”

I will repeat that phrase: BEATEN. Kylo Ren got beaten in TFA. That’s the official ST canon.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

Either it is a thing that exists or it doesn’t. If it exists what are the odds something like wouldn’t be mentioned at all?
It didn’t happen the PT, It didn’t happen between Luke and Vader. It is not mentioned at all in any previous film. That is the problem when you decide to invent something new, you have to account for its absence in the prior films. I don’t the evolve and change stuff. Either this is something the force does or it doesn’t.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Maybe I should have said “begs for a better explanation”.

It exists in this film - as stated above. You can go back and select whatever criteria you wish - it does not make it that it did not happen in this film. I don’t have to account for it not appearing for it’s absence in previous films at all - as that is not what the context of the situation is about.

Though if so, I could point out that the balance of the force - and it’s interpretation - is indeed mentioned in the PT, yes?

Nice one, thanks.

Yes, and that interpretation is, that balance to the Force is equated to destroying the Sith, as stated in ROTS by Obi-Wan, and since confirmed by Lucas in interviews after ROTS was released.

No, It is also mentioned by Mace Windu too, amongst others. Yes? Without equating the balance in destroying the Sith? Thank you for the reminder in proving my point.

George can say what he wants in interviews after the fact - he is hardly a paragon of consistency, or fact/truth is he?

Yes, the balance is mentioned without any explanation. The only explanation given in the films is the one given by Obi-Wan, hence it is the only correct interpretation. Anything else is fan fiction, or head canon. Luke’s parentage was only confirmed by Yoda in ROTJ. Should we thus ignore this fact, because it doesn’t fit a fan’s narrative? I’m sure Lucas has mentioned Vader being Luke’s father too in interviews, but…

George can say what he wants in interviews after the fact - he is hardly a paragon of consistency, or fact/truth is he?

TV’s Frink said:

All this focus on “winning,” you guys sound like Trump.

SORRY JAY!!! 😉

To quote Sean Connery in The Rock:

“Your best? Losers allways talk about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!”

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

How about you go watch all of the fight again? And post in on here (don’t worry - I have below).

Just because - as I stated before - he is on his arse and scarred in the final few blows of the fight - doesn’t mean she won the fight.

The planet came apart before there was any ‘winner’.

Selecting certain scenes from an overall event to highlight an opinion does not make it fact. I find it baffling that you think it does.

Try watching the whole fight, here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI - and put it into context of my previous posts. Rey is on the back foot and losing the fight - on the edge of a ‘cliff’ before she let’s the force in… and even then the planet breaks apart before there any winner…

I don’t buy this. Did Luke not win the fight against Vader in ROTJ? Vader was wounded, disarmed, and on his arse like Kylo. Once Rey found her composure, and used the Force she got the better of Kylo pretty quickly. In fact Kylo doesn’t put up much if a fight at all, swinging wildly. Rey stabs him in his arm, destroys his laser sword, cuts his face, and puts him on his arse, much like Luke did to Vader in ROTJ. If the earthquake had not separated them, she could have sliced him in half. I would call that winning the fight.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

Either it is a thing that exists or it doesn’t. If it exists what are the odds something like wouldn’t be mentioned at all?
It didn’t happen the PT, It didn’t happen between Luke and Vader. It is not mentioned at all in any previous film. That is the problem when you decide to invent something new, you have to account for its absence in the prior films. I don’t the evolve and change stuff. Either this is something the force does or it doesn’t.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Maybe I should have said “begs for a better explanation”.

It exists in this film - as stated above. You can go back and select whatever criteria you wish - it does not make it that it did not happen in this film. I don’t have to account for it not appearing for it’s absence in previous films at all - as that is not what the context of the situation is about.

Though if so, I could point out that the balance of the force - and it’s interpretation - is indeed mentioned in the PT, yes?

Nice one, thanks.

Yes, and that interpretation is, that balance to the Force is equated to destroying the Sith, as stated in ROTS by Obi-Wan, and since confirmed by Lucas in interviews after ROTS was released.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

Respectfully, that’s completely ridiculous. You can’t say “if she had the intention,” because she didn’t and Luke knew that. If she did, things would have gone differently. Even without a lightsaber Luke could have easily bested her with the force. Literally all that happened was she caught him off guard with the saber. Equating that to "she beat a Jedi master is absolutely absurd. You’re just forcing this scene to fit your argument. That’s clearly not what happened.

It’s not ridiculous. It’s about the message the scene sends to the viewer. Here we have Rey towering over Luke holding a lightsaber, forcing him to tell the truth, which he eventually does. Luke looks old, worn, and pathetic, while Rey stands over, and lectures him. If Luke could have easily bested Rey, why did he end up on his back, spilling his guts?

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

There’s nothing in that scene, that suggests she is less powerful than Kylo. Unlike Kylo, she’s able to not get herself into a jam while fighting the guards, suggestung she’s actually more competent. It is not Rey who needs help, which would have been appropriate, since she’s far less experienced, but it’s Kylo. Had she not helped Kylo, he would be in serious trouble.

You’re forcing, again. Think how common a trope it is where the main hero is about to die and someone shoots the guy about to shoot them last minute. Does that make that person who got the shot first more powerful? No. Obviously this is a bad comparison, but only because the better comparison would be a scene where the other person throws the hero a gun and then they get the shot.

Not to mention that she’s just repaying the favor, considering Kylo did essentially the same thing (though very differently) by killing Snoke.

And also, I never said Kylo is more powerful. In fact, the film outright says they are equals. Now I understand you think that’s bullshit because Rey wasn’t trained as much, but I don’t really think that even factors into this scene.

I might agree with this.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

Considering that she’s been able to do all this Jedi stuff with zero effort, this lifting rocks thing is just the cherry on the cake for me. It contrasts strongly with the Luke lifting the X-wing scene, with the film seemingly suggesting Rey’s just better than Luke at everything, despite not recieving any training, or studying the Force herself. She just magically has these powers. That makes her a bland character for me. It’s not enough for her to be talented like Luke, the next new hope, she needs to be Luke on steroids.

I don’t think the film suggests she’s better than Luke at all. I mean yes, technically if you compare them she is, but the film doesn’t make a big deal of it, she just is and I don’t really understand what’s wrong with that (I guess it’s that old EU thing of “Luke is the most powerful force user ever”?). Yes she has these powers magically. Because the force is magic. No it doesn’t follow the exact arc of physical training that Luke received. But that doesn’t make her a bland character at all. Are superheroes bland characters because they get their powers in an instant? No, of course not (and that’s not saying that Rey becomes a superhero in an instant). The depth that her character has does not come from her physical journey. It comes from her internal, emotional journey.

Hate to say it, but this is an instance of people being mad that Rey isn’t exactly like Luke.

It’s not that she’s exactly like Luke, or that she can’t be more talented. It’s that her progression contradicts everything that’s been established about the Force and how you can learn to use it. The only emotional journey Rey get’s in this film is the discovery of her parentage. Otherwise she’s not really emotionally or physically challenged. I said this before, but just compare the scene of Rey coming to the rescue of the Resistance at the end of TLJ, lifting the rocks, with Luke hanging below Cloud City, pleading to be rescued by his friends. The difference is astounding, and is the most clear visual evidence of Luke’s emotional journey and physical ordeal versus Rey’s lack of both.

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

What was the context of the Force choke discussion anyway? Did it relate to anything in TLJ, or did someone mention it in passing, and it grew into this huge debate?

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

There’s nothing in that scene, that suggests she is less powerful than Kylo. Unlike Kylo, she’s able to not get herself into a jam while fighting the guards, suggestung she’s actually more competent. It is not Rey who needs help, which would have been appropriate, since she’s far less experienced, but it’s Kylo. Had she not helped Kylo, he would be in serious trouble.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

Considering that she’s been able to do all this Jedi stuff with zero effort, this lifting rocks thing is just the cherry on the cake for me. It contrasts strongly with the Luke lifting the X-wing scene, with the film seemingly suggesting Rey’s just better than Luke at everything, despite not recieving any training, or studying the Force herself. She just magically has these powers. That makes her a bland character for me. It’s not enough for her to be talented like Luke, the next new hope, she needs to be Luke on steroids.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke, minus the books. :p

Luke gave her 1/2 lesson, which amounted to not much more than Obi-Wan’s lecture in Obi-Wan’s cabin, and another history lesson about the Jedi and the phony legend Luke Skywalker. I think Luke learned a little more with Yoda than that. I seem to remember something about levitation, luminous beings, and the dark side and such, but I could be mistaken. 😉

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.

Not really IMO. Lucas’ interpretation of balance is, that the Sith are like a cancer and bring the Force out of balance, and their destruction will restore balance. I never really liked this, and felt is was pretty vague, but that still doesn’t present a precedent for just anybody instantly getting Jedi powers, because there’s a dark side Force user running loose in the galaxy in my view.

(posted before your edit to include IMO and a dark side force user running lose)
 

Yes. Really. It is what has occurred onscreen - whether you like it or not - felt that it was pretty vague or not, or stating that it’s not a precedent is nether here nor there. It happened - and ran through the films.

I can see why there has been much circular debate and repetition in this thread given people’s ‘certain point of view’ and selective choosing of what has happened - or not - onscreen, as a reason for not liking certain characters, plots and quality of films.

I’ll leave it there - wonder woman indeed.

I disagree. Lucas has explained what balance means in his films, and despite the vagueness of the references jn the films, that’s what it represents, because the creator states it is such.

Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

Me neither, in fact it’s the differences between how the two characters progress, that are at the heart of the discussion.

Shopping Maul said:

It’s so hard to put a finger on when Star Wars appears ridiculous or breaks its own supposed rules. Obviously it’s in the eye of the beholder.

I quite liked Rey’s power-levels in TFA because they provided something of a contrast to the Luke experience. Luke was basically a nice suburban kid who was introduced to his Jedi heritage (and potential) in a very linear way. Given that the saga overall has established that certain folks have a knack for this stuff (not thrilled with Midichlorians but anyway…) I love the idea of a potential Jedi honing their abilities completely under the duress of the school of hard knocks. Rey learns to fight and to sense danger because it’s basically do or die. She learns skills like languages and mechanics because she needs every advantage. It’s an interesting idea.

I think my limit in TLJ was the rocks scene. Maybe I need another viewing (I don’t recall any build-up or implied effort, but I could be completely wrong here!) but this just seemed to say “yep, Rey can do anything folks”. It’s hard NOT to consider the precedent set by the previous films on this one. Fighting skills are one thing - it’s easy to imagine Luke gaining such skills had he gone through Rey-like experiences in life. But she never needed to levitate stuff on Jakku. Yoda’s lifting Luke’s X-wing in the swamp was clearly a demonstration of mastery - a kind of faraway point for Luke to aspire to in some distant future if he really knuckled down and applied some serious discipline. Rey defies all this and simply…does it. In the scene she looks as surprised as I was!

The new movies seem to be confused about how they want to depict the Force. They’re edging away from the ‘chosen one’ crap of the Midichlorian-era and returning to the ‘energy field’ we all know and love, yet they also seem to be saying that Force powers are springing up everywhere for no other reason than the Force itself likes to balance itself vicariously through random folks.

Like I said, I’m due another viewing of TLJ, but I’m not sure how I feel about all of this. Fun to discuss though!

Yep, this perfectly encapsulates my feelings about Rey.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

I’m sorry too.

Nice one!

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.

Not really IMO. Lucas’ interpretation of balance is, that the Sith are like a cancer and bring the Force out of balance, and their destruction will restore balance. I never really liked this, and felt is was pretty vague, but that still doesn’t present a precedent for just anybody instantly getting Jedi powers, because there’s a dark side Force user running loose in the galaxy in my view.

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side…

Please point those moments out to me, because I didn’t see any serious struggle or temptation, and there certainly were no serious consequences for Rey, as there were for Luke.

and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

The moments with Kylo were mostly undercut by Snoke’s admission, that he was manipulating Rey, as such we don’t know what was real, and what wasn’t. The single most powerful moment was, when Kylo couldn’t kill his mother, but as with Rey it was without consequence, as the theme wasn’t revisited in the film. Leia just accepted her son was lost without so much as a confrontation, killing an interesting story thread about Ben Solo’s relationship with his parents, a relationship that had led to particide. However, like so many set ups of TFA RJ decided to mostly ignore that.

You don’t think Ben killing his father wasn’t a factor in that acceptance?

It might, but the movie just glossed over it in my view. It wasn’t much of a story thread in the film, despite the fact that it supposedly played an important part in Kylo’s development in TFA. Kylo states he didn’t hate his father to Rey, but doesn’t really address the issue afterwards. It isn’t much of an issue to Rey either after that one confrintation. There’s no confrontation between mother and son. I felt it was handled in an unsatisfactory manner.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:
Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

Sorry Frink I didn’t mean to open up old wounds and rekindle the Mary Sue debate, I myself was responding to Dre’s comment above. That comment launched it. I don’t like the Mary Sue stuff, I think its tedious and it is emboldening a certain section of fandom that I would rather not embolden.

Yeah, Wonder Woman is a DC super hero. I could hardly call her Superman, since she is…a woman. I don’t like my Star Wars protagonists to be super heroes, who like Spider-Man, who was bitten by a radio-active spider, instantly gets super human powers. I call that insta-Force. I want my Star Wars protagonists to work for it, and struggle. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. That’s something you brought into the discussion.

Mocata said:

Rey is a Mary Sue only if you consider that she does everything without any kind of training. So to believe this you have to actively ignore that all her knowledge about technology and ships comes from years living in Scrap World where it’s all there is to learn about. Then you have to also ignore that all her Force knowledge comes from things she’s heard (you can lift rocks) or witnesses (thanks to Kylo Ren). Then she goes and hands Kylo the First Order leadership on a plate because of her own naive beliefs which is a massively stupid thing to do, but she heard somewhere that people can be “turned” good. I kinda like Rey.

Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument. The criticism is, that she is too perfect, and the progress in her knowledge of the Force too fast and easy, compared to earlier protagonists, and some of the better protagonists in fiction in general. I think those critics have a point, even if I don’t agree with everyone of them. I’ve defended Rey’s progression in TFA, but now feel her character has stalled in TLJ, while gaining Force powers exponentially.