DrDre

NFBisms said:

I don’t even think you have to assume Luke changed at all within the 30+ years, tbh.

The Luke I know coming out of ROTJ would absolutely hold himself accountable for failing himself and his ideals in the way he did that night. He wouldn’t just brush off messing up like that with Ben and continue pretending to be so self-righteous, when he feels that he isn’t. I can understand his reaction to keep himself away from the galaxy because of his arc in 4-6 teaching him that action doesn’t always mean heroism.

In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

You see this kind of thinking with “I shouldn’t have come I’m jeopardizing the mission” when he senses Vader is on Endor with them. And you see an extension of it when he assures Leia that she is the next hope if he doesn’t make it back from the Death Star II. If he feels he can only make something worse, he feels it best to stay away, and he knows that even when he’s gone, there is still light in the galaxy - heroes that will fight for good.

“To say that because the Jedi die the light dies, is vanity.”

I’m not saying he was right to stay away. The whole idea is that he’s wrong, and that he can still be a hero. But it fits with the character for me. I don’t think he changed drastically in those 30 years. A huge thing just put him in a drastically different place.

Yes, but to me this ignores the obviously better solution of him trying to stop Snoke and Kylo, and then retire. If he succeeds, he will have saved the galaxy, and then no more Jedi. If he fails, he dies, no more Jedi. Why choose for certain failure, if there’s a chance of success? Success doesn’t preclude him from ending the Jedi. How can he make things worse, than by leaving an evil Force user in charge, and allow him to train as many evil Force users, as he sees fit? Snoke didn’t need Luke. He just wanted him dead to prevent the rise of the new Jedi. The worst thing Luke could do, is to oblige, and go to some island to die. Luke’s decision just doesn’t make sense.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Einstein didn’t invent his theory, and then go to a physics professor, and tell him or her, the knowledge just awoke in him, and he was afraid. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.

TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe, as an alternate nihilist Yoda. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.

You aren’t even making sense. You are stuck with an impression that many do not agree with. If you watch eps 4, 5, and 8 together, you will see one Luke. One. You have imagined Luke from how he acts in ROTJ. That is the confident, self assured Luke. The Luke we get in TLJ is the same doubting one we get in ANH, and TESB. The same. Why? Because he self assurance was broken by the events that came before TFA. Nothing is broken or rewritten. Rian Johnson is a Star Wars fan and told a story that fits better with the OT than TFA does.

There’s a reason there’s an episode 6. The Luke in eps 4, 5, and 6 has an arc. The Luke of episode 5 is not the Luke from episode 4. The Luke from episode 5 is a leader of the rebellion, as is evident in the battle of Hoth, something he learned in the battle of Yavin, when he had to take charge after red leader was killed. The Luke of episode 5 has learned more about the Force through self-learning. The Luke in episode 6 has gone through the ordeal of discovering Vader is his father. He overcame that shattering experience. He has grown in his abilities and his confidence, and is trying to cope with the knowledge of his evil father. His way to cope with such tragedy is to try and fix the situation, to redeem his father, and he succeeds. Episode 6 tells us how Luke deals with tragedy. He doesn’t run away from it, or hide under a rock. He faces his problems, and solves them. You’re willfully ignoring Luke’s arc from eps 4-6, because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Your argument is that there’s one Luke in eps 4 and 5, and another one in 6. This is just wrong. Luke’s arc in eps 4-6 has him experience great tragedy, and it tells us how the character of Luke operates under those conditions. To me and a lot of other fans RJ’s version of Luke does not fit his arc in eps 4-6.

As for genius, Good Will Hunting. There is such a thing as self-taught or experience taught. You do not have to go to school and study in a prescribed manner to be a genius and be able to do what people who have gone to school for a decade to learn to do. Good Will Hunting is fiction, but real people like that exist.

Self-taught is a form of learning that takes time. You can have all the talent in the world, but you either get taught or you teach yourself. In either case it takes time. One aspect of genius is, that it takes less time, but it still takes time to learn new things. Rey does not meet those criteria. She’s not been taught, and she’s not self-taught. She just instantaneously knows, and doesn’t understand how. That is not genius. That’s magic.

Rey is one of those with the force. Her life on Jakku, by a lucky chance, trained her in the way she needed to be able to pick up these skills from Kylo Ren. You, in virtually every post, have described a preconception you came to the movie with that the movie blew apart and you don’t like it. You have yet to prove that it is not logical to the Star Wars universe. Abrams did pass all his ides past Lucas for what is and is not possible with the Force and apparently Lucas approved it. You had the expectation that Rey would have the same difficult journey to becoming a Jedi that Luke had. That is an expectation on your part and in no way means the movie is flawed. The movie went a different direction. Learning the Force is like any other skill. You can learn it in school or learn it in the school of life.

Rey did not learn the Force. She just knows. It wasn’t available to her before, and alakazam, it suddenly is. As she states in TLJ. Something has awakened inside me, something I don’t understand, and I’m afraid. Everything she said is at odds with your interpretation.

Luke had all the wrong lessons the Yoda had to correct (which is there in the TESB dialog) and Rey had all the right lessons. Rey has the patience Luke lacked (demonstrated by waiting for her parents to come back for a decade), she has the disciple Luke lacked (demonstrated by having to work hard to find usable parts just to eat), Rey has the fighting skill (demonstrated by how she defends BB-8). Rey comes to the story already trained in most of the way that Luke lacked. It was not something we are told, but something we are shown. Luke struggled to get to the right place to utilize the force properly, Rey is there already and just needs someone to show her what she can do.

She has patience, so she should be able to teach herself, but she doesn’t. She just knows. The Force put it in her head, just like that. This has nothing to do with her experience on Jakku. It awoke inside her, as a reaction to Kylo Ren, and then she could do this amazing stuff, just like a super hero. Ordinary person one moment, deux ex machina later a super hero.

Luke needed a patient teacher and Rey needs a powerful example. They are very different characters and their ability to tap the force starts at a very different place. I can find no way to follow your logic except by ignoring what I have seen and heard in TESB and TFA. You seem to be blinded by how Luke appears in ROTJ. That Luke was strong in the force and riding a wave of success and had confidence.

Riding a wave of success? Luke has experienced the most devastating upset in his life. Everything he believed in was a lie. He spent his life trying to follow in his father’s footsteps, only to discover his father was the second most evil person in the galaxy, a father who maimed him, by cutting off his hand. That experience could have broken him, but it didn’t. He used the experience to grow beyond his father, and ultimately became an example to his father, who then followed in Luke’s footsteps, and was redeemed. That was Luke’s arc. He went to hell, and found his way back, not only for himself, but also for his father. This experience made him a Jedi.

He was ready to face Vader and Palpatine. The Luke we get in TFA and TLJ is broken, wounded by betrayal and failure. He is lost. He has closed himself off from the force and is blind to the plight of the galaxy. He is the same Luke from the OT, but broken by what happened. Given his personality in ANH and TESB, this is entirely a logical turn of events.

No, because we already know from ROTJ, that Luke can experience great personal tragedy, and become stronger, that Luke would not be broken by his nephews betrayal, as he wasn’t by his father’s. Therefore, Luke’s journey in TLJ is not logical, and is inconsistent with his arc in the OT.

You may not agree, but the logic you have posted leaves a lot to be desired.

Not at all. Your posts show, that you’re willing to ignore Luke’s arc from eps 4-6 in order for 8 to make sense. To you there’s one Luke of 4,5, and 8, while 6 is the outlier. This is wrong in my view. There’s not one Luke from 4, 5, and 8. There’s a logical evolution of the character from 4 to 6, and 8 is the outlier, the one that breaks with the trend set by 4-6. Luke was a caterpillar in 4, was in a cocoon in 5, and became a butterflie in 6. Then he’s a dung beetle in 8. Why? Because Rey presents him with nectar at the end of 7, and at the beginning of 8 he just tosses it away, because he knows, he’s now only allowed to eat ****.

I’ve been watching Star Wars since I was 7. I saw the original 10 times before TESB came out and I bought the video tapes as soon as I had a VCR. I bought the widescreen version as soon as it was available on VHS. I played with the action figures. I read the books, owned the comics. The characters are like old friends. The Luke I saw in TLJ was familiar and like a friend down on his luck. I see a film made by a fan for fans who didn’t want to see a rehash of old material (the single biggest complaint about TFA). I see a filmmaker who didn’t like Abrams mystery boxes any more than I did. I see Abrams as the flawed filmmaker, not RJ. Abrams gave us a lackluster installment and RJ gave us a return to quality story telling. As I said, you may not agree. I just disagree with the logic you present. I can’t follow it because it doesn’t match the Star Wars I grew up with and have spent so much time trying to make presentable so I can share it with my kids. People fail, even icons. All TLJ does is remind us that Luke is human.

I’ve been around since before the first film’s release in 1977. Most of us have owned every version of the OT available. We’ve played with the action figures, and consider these characters as part of our family. This doesn’t buy me extra credibility credits, and it doesn’t do for you, or anyone else. You have your personal reasons for wanting to accept RJ’s premise, and I have mine for rejecting it. This forum gives us the opportunity to present our view points.

TV’s Frink said:

Not everyone needs a happy ending. You do. Don’t watch new Star Wars. Problem solved.

Yeah, but isn’t this why forums like this exist? To discuss why we jump on or off the band wagon, or why we like or dislike certain elements, or what makes a Star Wars film work for you, or not? It’s not, because we all agree. If we all agreed, we would have a first post on some random subject, followed by a few dozen: I agree! I agree! This! You’re a genius, give me more!

Double post

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Einstein didn’t invent his theory, and then go to a physics professor, and tell him or her, the knowledge just awoke in him, and he was afraid. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.

TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe, as an alternate nihilist Yoda. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

DominicCobb said:

There is one thing that I feel like is possible they could clarify in IX. It’s there in TFA and TLJ, though it’s vague, but basically it’s the concept of the awakening. I think that both Kylo Ren and Rey have both been granted (for whatever reason) incredible force capabilities. Training, for them, isn’t so much gaining skills as it is learning what to do with the skills they are being granted. When you look at it this way, it’s not so much important how Rey has these skills or even why, but what she chooses to do with them that makes her story compelling.

On a similar train of thought, when the announced the title of TFA, I thought it was possible that there was an awakening in the force that had caused people all over to suddenly be in tune with the force. After seeing the film, I thought it might just refer to Rey, though I kept the possibility at the back of my mind. With TLJ’s ending, I think there’s still a chance I might not have been too far off.

We’ll see what IX holds.

I can see that, but my question is, if Spider-Man can fly like Superman, and shoot lasers out of his eyes in future comics and films, is that still Spider-Man, just because he wears the Spider-Man suit? Alternatively, if you have a superhero who looks like Spider-Man, and has all his powers, but doesn’t have the great power means great responsibility angle, is that still Spider-Man?

The way Jedi powers were acquired was about more than working hard to achieve something. It was also about the idea, that once this world would open to you, you would be tempted by the dark side. You would be tempted to take the quick and easy path to attain power, great power without the responsibility. These were important themes, that have defined Star Wars for four decades. The process of how you went about to obtain, and use these powers determined whether you would end up on the light or dark side. Certain powers were even specifically asscociated with one of these sides. The PT was largely driven by Anakin wanting to learn the unnatural dark side power to control life and death.

Now that these powers simply awake inside a person, the Jedi and their enemies are more like super heroes. Acquiring these powers is no longer connected to personal growth. That’s a major change which for me is like having Spider-Man, without the great power means great responsibility angle. That for me is not Star Wars, just like it’s no longer Spider-Man. It something different, that has the aesthetic of Star Wars. I can appreciate it on it’s own terms, but it will never be Star Wars.

Ps. Happy New Year everybody!

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.

Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.

You’re missing the nuance. Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader and is supposedly all ready to destroy everything and take control of whatever is rest. But there’s more going on there. He thinks he knows what he wants, but it’s not that simple. When the dice disappear and Rey shuts the door on him, it’s clear that what he has now is really nothing at all. He’s just as conflicted as ever, if not more so.

We’ll see in episode IX.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.

Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.

The Star Wars universe flourish, if it is dependent on a select number of heroes and villains, and by extension a
limited number of actors. It needs to expand like the MCU, and contain a host of different heroes, and villains. Kylo Ren will only be one of many villains in the SCU, the Star Wars Cinematic Universe.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

From a fan perspective I would agree, from the general audience perspective not so much, at least not from the point of view of where the story ends, and episode IX will begin. Episode IX will be the film with the least connections to the past and it’s overarching themes of all Star Wars films. This is why it is the perfect setup for the MCU treatment in my view.

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

DominicCobb said:

Well this thread grew in my brief absence (I suppose not a surprise at all).

All I’ll say is I’m with NFB, what TLJ did is exactly what SW needed to not become any other blockbuster franchise.

The MCU is not like any other blockbuster franchise. It’s far more successful for one thing, and also get’s a lot of praise from critics. In my view Star Wars will share many traits of the MCU, while also maintaining enough of it’s own identity to be extremely marketable. Disney knows what they’re doing. In the world of movies they’re top dog. It will be an entertaining ride. Whether it will be inspiring? Every now and then, I suppose.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

TLJ is the penultimate story if the Saga. It had to tie up a lot so that 9 could complete things.

RJ hasn’t left much to complete. Kylo Ren and the FO need to be beaten, such that freedom can be restored. The end.

What other story threads, mysteries, or familial relations are left to explore? Finn and Rose can continue their akward romance, I suppose?

I can see how it was aiming to do that. Your theory about it resetting/rebooting things would make sense if they were going to continue the story, but with news that RJ will be doing an unconnected trilogy, it makes no sense.

The announcement of a new unrelated trilogy fits into my narrative perfectly. They will continue to make films indefinitely. The fact that the trilogy is unconnected, implies there’s no connective tissue with the rest of the saga. Hooray!

You have argued above that we need to know the filmmaker’s intent an RJ is a huge Star Wars fan so I don’t see how that equals deconstructing what came before. If the correct interpretation must incorporate the original intent, then you are quite mistaken in your deconstruction/reboot theory.

Who says RJ takes away the same things from Star Wars as any other random fan? He may have a unique view point, that no other fan shares. Either way, he was hired by Disney to do a job, not to be a fan, and as far as I can see he lived up to their expectations.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Two more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

I don’t agree this film is only criticized by die-hard fans.

I don’t know. The movie poll among the general audience gave the film A. The imdb rating is well above average, and hasn’t been called into question like the RT audience rating. Many audience reviews are filled with such blind hatred, they must come from fans, because the general audience wouldn’t care that much. From a general audience perspective I would say TLJ is an entertaining film with some flaws, and the 7.6 rating is not unreasonable.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Three more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. That is my belief. This is not a bad thing perse. Like I said, I really like the MCU. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore, and hasn’t been for years. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

Yes, but is it enough to sustain the franchise going forward with a film released every year? In the old Lucas era it worked, but for the future? They have a proven business model with the MCU universe, filled with a wide variety of colorful characters. It makes perfect business sense to transfer that model to the Star Wars universe. That’s what they’re doing now in my view.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material.

Ever try to read some of those Old Testament books? Also real page Turners. Yoda’s comment was on the dryness of the texts that Rey had already taken.

The Luke we have in TLJ is a classic archetype. An old warrior who doesn’t want to help the hero. The fallen hero. Based on the previously seen character traits, his present mental state makes perfect sense. The events given are in character as is the reaction to those events. You can even see a glimmer of hope in his action - seeking out the first Jedi lore. Luke was not as grown up as some think in ROTJ. And he’d had so little training compared to the Republic Era Jedi. And he needed it because he didn’t gave the right mental outlook. In TLJ, Yoda even reminds him of one of his old warnings/teachings. And when Rey finds him, he us not connected to the force. He doesn’t know Han is dead, so when Rey fights him, she isn’t fighting a Jedi Master at o e with the force, she is fighting a man cut off from the force while she daws on it. Of course she bested him. The clues are all in the movies. Watch 4, 5, 6, and 7 again and see if I am not right. Then watch TLJ again and see if things don’t make more sense.

I’ve seen all of them many, many times. TLJ is filled with subliminal messages many of them connected to Kylo’s kill the past remark. You may not believe me now, but wait a few years, and you will notice a striking similarity with how future Star Wars films are set up, and the workings of the MCU universe, Disney’s greatest cash cow. Don’t get me wrong, I really like the MCU universe, but much of what set Star Wars apart from the other major franchises will be lost.

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message, is also a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order, and to abandon much of their former beliefs, and ideals.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

Anchorhead said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

Having lived through the release of Empire and not being a little kid at the time, I can say for sure that a lot of the criticisms were most certainly about the core and the characters themselves. In the interest of disclosure, I was very disappointed in how the characters of Vader and Han were handled.

Vader was morphed into something other than a second tier military officer and Han had become a good guy proper, not a scoundrel who did a nice thing. The final dagger was Vader as a family member. Lucas had altered both characters, to me, to the point where they were too different for me to care.

Interstingly enough TESB was the first Star Wars film I saw as a ten year old. When I watched Star Wars afterwards, the characters were less interesting to me, especially Vader. It wasn’t until I grew up, that I really began appreciating Star Wars on it’s own terms to the point, that it’s now my second favourite Star Wars film.

TV’s Frink said:

Here we go again.

It’s a Star Wars forum. History is bound to repeat itself. 😉

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.